Not By Works

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May 31, 2020
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Wow,

I thought the OSAS/NOSAS debate was a mine field; this free grace/forced grace (Correct terminology?) thing is pretty touchy for some I see.

What I see in scripture is that God offers the free gift of eternal life through repentance and belief. All men have a free will to either receive it, reject it, or come short of it.
Explain “come short of it”.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Does he have a purpose for them to do his will on this earth?
Every believer has one gift or another.
The works of service you will do revolve around the spiritual enablement you have received.
If you have the gift of healing, you will lay your hands on the sick and they will be healed. If your gift is teaching, you will teach people about the truths of the kingdom. If your gift is faith, you will pray with power. And so on...
 
May 31, 2020
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Election is not based on randomness. But foreknowledge is a verb, which means when God foreknows some, He is doing something when He foreknew them. This is election. God chose a number no man can number to give to the Son to redeem them from their sins. We are not told why He chose them, other than He loves them. That’s sufficient for me.
Your illustration is akin to car manufacturers deliberately making faulty automobiles in order to decrease sales. Makes no sense.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Yes the verse does not tell us why we believed but that does not mean we should do away with Romans 10:9.
Please mention one verse that tells us why we believe and also share one testimony in this thread that does not give honor and glory to God.

Any one who thinks Confessing is a work of the human flesh, does not understand Rom. 10:9. Confessing, and Really Meaning It, "Jesus is LORD" (meaning MASTER), is not a work of US. It clearly is What the HOLY SPIRIT does in our HEARTS (Human Spirit)

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and
no one can say, Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Your illustration is akin to car manufacturers deliberately making faulty automobiles in order to decrease sales. Makes no sense.
It creates this BIG question.. of why He selected some and not others ... agree make no sense.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Personally, I think this is simple.

and seen in Esau and Jacob.

one despised his birth right- inheritance as firstborn son. The other didn’t.

Nothing has changed.
 
May 19, 2020
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Every believer has one gift or another.
The works of service you will do revolve around the spiritual enablement you have received.
If you have the gift of healing, you will lay your hands on the sick and they will be healed. If your gift is teaching, you will teach people about the truths of the kingdom. If your gift is faith, you will pray with power. And so on...

And what about the fruits of the Spirit?

Some are called in Jesus Name to bear his fruit.....that should shine out from within us..the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Explain “come short of it”.
Sure, my friend; better yet, I’ll let the scripture speak for itself:

Hebrews 3:19-4:1
[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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No unregenerate person has faith as it is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22. The unregenerate (a person devoid of God’s Spirit) cannot possess a fruit of the Spirit. If one has faith, they are regenerate. :)
I would say that the faith that an unbeliever is not incapable of having is faith that God will protect them.

The faith that all men can have is faith in something other than God; like faith that the sun will come up in the morning, the plane he is on won’t crash, etc.

But if he exercises that same kind of limited worldly faith in the gospel, then the faith given by the Spirit gets shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost; he then receives that faith that comes from the fruit of the Spirit.

That how I see it.
 
May 19, 2020
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I would say that the faith that an unbeliever is not incapable of having is faith that God will protect them.

The faith that all men can have is faith in something other than God; like faith that the sun will come up in the morning, the plane he is on won’t crash, etc.

But if he exercises that same kind of limited worldly faith in the gospel, then the faith given by the Spirit gets shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost; he then receives that faith that comes from the fruit of the Spirit.

That how I see it.

I believe God increases our faith...do you?......
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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And no Calvinist teaches God forces us to come to Him. We teach He effectually calls His elect ppl, but He enables them via divine quickening. But we don’t teach salvation is forced on anyone. Nor do we teach He drags us to Him kicking and screaming, either.
How about blinding? Paul.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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And what about the fruits of the Spirit?

Some are called in Jesus Name to bear his fruit.....that should shine out from within us..the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
That's actually what Paul is referring to when he speaks of being 'predestined'. People who believe in God are predestined to be confomed to the image of Christ according to the fruit of the Spirit.

We aren't purposely predestined to be chosen. Rather, the chosen (that is, those who believe) are predestined to be conformed to the holiness of Christ:

"4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he b predestined us for adoption to sonship c through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will " - Ephesians 1:4-5

"29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined (to be conformed to the image of his Son), he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. " - Romans 8:29-30

The plan all along has been for people to be chosen on the basis of their faith in God, and then for those people chosen according to their faith to be made holy and blameless, being conformed to the image of his Son. That is the will of God for those God has chosen.

"3 ...it is God’s will that you should be holy" - 1 Thessalonians 4:3

"...Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:13-14

That's the whole plan.
God chooses people for the kingdom based on their faith in God, not the merit of their works.
And God has predetermined that those people chosen on the basis of their faith will be conformed to the image of Jesus in holiness.
That is the will of God for his chosen people. That's the plan.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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I believe God increases our faith...do you?...
I suppose.

But even a little faith goes a long way:

Matthew 17:20
[20] ...verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
 
May 31, 2020
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Sure, my friend; better yet, I’ll let the scripture speak for itself:

Hebrews 3:19-4:1
[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
I see unbelief and coming short of it being one and the same where as you see it differently. It’s all good. I will ponder your take of it. Thank you for your reply. 🙏
 
Oct 25, 2018
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I need to ask you a question..first..no one can brain wash me...I’m open..but that doesn’t mean I take it on board.

When you say the elect..do you mean the chosen ones by God?
Does he have a purpose for them to do his will on this earth?

Because I believe he does.....he knows who will carry out his will.

To Glorify His Name and “Only His Name”,
The elect are the chosen ones of God, yes. However, they were not chosen on the basis of their faith. That’s the foreseen faith doctrine that doesn‘t have any foundation in the scriptures. Look at this passage...

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

Notice it says He justified. We are justified by what? Faith. It says He justified by faith those He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and also glorified. This is not based upon their faith, but according to His purpose. Just as it also says in Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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That’s His foreknowledge. He has declared the end from the beginning. And His counsel shall stand. Now, where else can we find this? also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,[Eph. 1:11].
I connect predestination with foreknowledge. Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Whoops!

Corrected my previous post in bolded italics below. :)

I would say that the faith that an unbeliever is not capable of having is faith that God will protect them.

The faith that all men can have is faith in something other than God; like faith that the sun will come up in the morning, the plane he is on won’t crash, etc.

But if he exercises that same kind of limited worldly faith in the gospel, then the faith given by the Spirit gets shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost; he then receives that faith that comes from the fruit of the Spirit.

That how I see it.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Two down, how many more are going to fail to heed my warning?

Clearly sarcastic insults and personal attacks are not going to be tolerated any more.

As much as it pains me I am reading every post in this thread and will remove whoever fires the first shot.
Very sad, very sad indeed.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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The 'elect' and the 'chosen' are exactly the same.
People are elected/chosen on the basis of their faith in God, not their works of righteousness. That's the gospel in a nutshell.

God had it in mind right from the beginning that men will be elected on the basis of their faith, not their righteous works.
Yet you believe people can become unelected.
That's my understanding based on your posts in this thread and our interactions.
They can give up their faith.

If that's the case then they were never elected to begin with?

Happy to be corrected.