Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Nope, the KOH is a physical literal kingdom promised to the nation of Israel with their rightful king on David’s throne.
Where is the KOH now?
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
Does not our atmosphere in which we breath include the sky? The windows of heaven are up above us in the sky. All a part of earths atmosphere, yes?
No...
To me I am seeing the 1st heaven is the sky , where eagles fly above the clouds , where humans find it harder to breath to a point we cannot go beyond unless in an aeroplane...
Anyway , I believe the earth is the foundation and the heavens are above :)...
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Does not our atmosphere in which we breath include the sky? The windows of heaven are up above us in the sky. All a part of earths atmosphere, yes?
The atmosphere does include the oxygen we breath and all the space that surrounds the earth, including the stratosphere.

The second heaven is the stellar heaven above the stratosphere, this includes the moon.
This is my understanding.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
No...
To me I am seeing the 1st heaven is the sky , where eagles fly above the clouds , where humans find it harder to breath to a point we cannot go beyond unless in an aeroplane...
Anyway , I believe the earth is the foundation and the heavens are above :)...
The first heaven includes the air we breathe all the way up to the sky, anything above the physical earth.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Nope, the KOH is a physical literal kingdom promised to the nation of Israel with their rightful king on David’s throne.
The KOH is a physical spiritual kingdom made up of believers all over the planet.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113

Yes Bill, the Bible talks about 3 Heavens.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.


File those verses in your head, it is how I prove to knuckleheads, that do not want to Believe that when JESUS told the Thief on the Cross, "Today you will be with me in PARADISE", that HE really meant it is the same as the Third Heaven, with GOD's Throne Room is.

Third Heaven = Throne Room in Heaven. Rev. 4:2
Second Heaven = Star of the Universe. 1 Ch. 27:23
First Heaven = Where the Birds Fly. Gen. 1:20
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
The first heaven includes the air we breathe all the way up to the sky, anything above the physical earth.
This is a more science view which includes the air we breath as being the atmosphere, however, the main thing heaven is not earth.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
Yes Bill, the Bible talks about 3 Heavens.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.


File those verses in your head, it is how I prove to knuckleheads, that do not want to Believe that when JESUS told the Thief on the Cross, "Today you will be with me in PARADISE", that HE really meant it is the same as the Third Heaven, with GOD's Throne Room is.

Third Heaven = Throne Room in Heaven. Rev. 4:2
Second Heaven = Star of the Universe. 1 Ch. 27:23
First Heaven = Where the Birds Fly. Gen. 1:20
Btw, the Lord did not ascend to the third heaven until the third day. 😉 Paradise, aka Abraham’s bosom, was translated into the third heaven upon the Lord’s resurrection.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Nope, the KOH is a physical literal kingdom promised to the nation of Israel with their rightful king on David’s throne.
There were not two different messages one for Jews and one for the Gentiles, nor a separate offer to the Jews first, if that is what underlies all your thinking.

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30, 31).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
There were not two different messages one for Jews and one for the Gentiles, nor a separate offer to the Jews first, if that is what underlies all your thinking.

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30, 31).
Acts 17 has moved us into the age of grace after the resurrection. Let me ask you, what exactly was the message before the cross that the disciples were preaching? It couldn’t have been the d,b,r for sins (our gospel) since they had no clue about the cross.

Mark 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Can you imagine today a preacher who does not know what the rising of the dead should mean?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Yep, Les Feldick did say many times that this idea of more than 1 gospel throughout the Bible is probably the hardest obstacle to overcome for Christians who subscribed to Covenant Theology.


If there are two gospels then why is Luke addressing a gentile? This would be a Greek name no?

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed them down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus
Luke 1 1:3
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Acts 17 has moved us into the age of grace after the resurrection. Let me ask you, what exactly was the message before the cross that the disciples were preaching? It couldn’t have been the d,b,r for sins (our gospel) since they had no clue about the cross.

Mark 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Can you imagine today a preacher who does not know what the rising of the dead should mean?
Are you on auto-repeat?

An "initial message" as part of a larger message does not mean they preached a different message.

That is where you mid-acts dispensationalism falls apart.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
Are you on auto-repeat?

An "initial message" as part of a larger message does not mean they preached a different message.

That is where you mid-acts dispensationalism falls apart.
Soooo, just preaching part of the gospel can save? Which part of the gospel did they preach? Paul’s gospel is clear and precise. It is how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again. Which part of that message did they preach?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Soooo, just preaching part of the gospel can save? Which part of the gospel did they preach? Paul’s gospel is clear and precise. It is how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again. Which part of that message did they preach?
They preached what Jesus told them to preach does not mean it was a different Gospel.

You seem to forget that God looks at the heart and even people who did not fully understand who Jesus was were moved by his presence.

To the Centurion...

"I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith" (Luke 7:9).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
They preached what Jesus told them to preach does not mean it was a different Gospel.

You seem to forget that God looks at the heart and even people who did not fully understand who Jesus was were moved by his presence.

To the Centurion...

"I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith" (Luke 7:9).
They did not preach the death of Christ. They did not preach the burial of Christ. The did not preach the res of Christ.

Bottom line, If you and I preached what they preached, nobody would or could be saved.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
They did not preach the death of Christ. They did not preach the burial of Christ. The did not preach the res of Christ.

Bottom line, If you and I preached what they preached, nobody would or could be saved.
Deal with these verses then.......

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
Hebrews 2:3-4

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
1 Timothy 6:3
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
Deal with these verses then.......

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
Hebrews 2:3-4

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
1 Timothy 6:3
Yes, announced by the Lord as prophecy yet the disciples did not understand because the gospel was hidden from them. Then what did the disciples preach if it was not the gospel of the d,b,r for sins?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
They did not preach the death of Christ. They did not preach the burial of Christ. The did not preach the res of Christ.

Bottom line, If you and I preached what they preached, nobody would or could be saved.
Yes they did actually, because they preached Christ and as long as they preached Him they preached the ONE Gospel.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Yes, announced by the Lord as prophecy yet the disciples did not understand because the gospel was hidden from them. Then what did the disciples preach if it was not the gospel of the d,b,r for sins?
I noticed you skipped over where Luke is addressing a gentile?