Not By Works

[Discern]

A clear hypothetical to illustrate an answer is far different some nebulous situation that has no answer.

It did have an answer. Even Dcontroversal answered it.

 

[Discern]

You might be considered licentious? Curtains for those who live that lifestyle?

This is one of my problems with OSAS. It is not a licence to live in sin.

OSAS is not a license to sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, you explained it very well. And, I absolutely agree..

What about the verse in the Bible where Jesus says in Matthew 24:13 that "But he shall who endure to the end shall be saved?"

Does that still highlight OSAS?

Honestly, Once Saves, Always Saved...does confuse me a little bit🤔

Shall endure to the end is in context about physical life being saved during the tribulation.

I am not @answering to step on @dcontroversal toes ...just because it is late there in AU and you might be eager for an answer.
And when he gets back in online I am sure he will elaborate. The meaning of the word saved must derived from context.

 

[Discern]

The reason youre facing issues in this is your mentality is far from Gods....


You keep looking to actions and not talking at all about the state of the heart of the person who is failing.

You then add time periods and big words to act as if 10 sins would disqualify someone more than 1 or that deed would disqualify someone more than thought to take your point to the extreme.


In reality

God's child who fails DOES not want to sin. If they are sinning they DESIRE righteousness. To sin as God's child, once or 100 times or 70 x 7 times would be a failure. Not a practice.

A child of Gods walk before man CAN show maturity IN CHRIST via the power of Christ working in them.

This is a useful son/daughter.

A child of Gods walk can also show IMMATURITY IN CHRIST via their flesh which would not show MAN anything other than this person should not be an example or put in a position of spiritual authority over anyone.

Jesus said as a man thinks in his heart, so is he, and all sin proceeds from the heart. You kind of have it backwards, friend.

 

[OneOfHis]

You might be considered licentious? Curtains for those who live that lifestyle?

This is one of my problems with OSAS. It is not a licence to live in sin.

A "licence to live in sin" would be approval of sin. I have never heard even one person here who says God will allow them to live in sin with no chastening as a Father would do to correct His child.


Those here who believe in eternal security see sin as something horrible and to be delivered from. They just trust in Christ to justify them before God appart from works.


I have only heard people who love lies and hate truth act as if anyone who trusts in Christ has a "licence to live in sin" by definition.

 

[Discern]

Jesus said as a man thinks in his heart, so is he, and all sin proceeds from the heart. You kind of have it backwards, friend.

One of His...So you red exxed me because I am wrong to say that all sin proceeds from the heart?

actions are a reflection of heart condition.

What do we examine to see if we are walking in truth? Our heart. And what is the clearest indication of what is in our heart? Feelings? NO, actions. A regenerate person acts like a regenerate person. Not all the time, not universally, but the course of his life is heading in a particular direction, though he may get off the path at times, he does not stay off the path.

 

[PS]

Calvinism? I actually didn't know that.
So, Eternal security as in knowing when we get saved by Jesus, no matter what we do, we go to heaven in the end?

Not necessarily, a few things can happen in the meantime.

We are best sticking to the "Old time religion."

 

[OneOfHis]

Jesus said as a man thinks in his heart, so is he, and all sin proceeds from the heart. You kind of have it backwards, friend.

romans 7


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[Discern]

Then answer it yourself.

Answer it for myself...OK

If I do the thing described in the question, then YES it is possible that I was never saved.

 

[OneOfHis]

One of His...So you red exxed me because I am wrong to say that all sin proceeds from the heart?

actions are a reflection of heart condition.

What do we examine to see if we are walking in truth? Our heart. And what is the clearest indication of what is in our heart? Feelings? NO, actions. A regenerate person acts like a regenerate person. Not all the time, not universally, but the course of his life is heading in a particular direction, though he may get off the path at times, he does not stay off the path.

I disagree based on how you think I have it backwards


I trust the bible

how you apply it seems to be incorrect at many points


feel free to disagree

 

[Discern]

romans 7


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Every man sins. But we are talking about something deliberate, habitual, and ONGOING.

A person that CHOOSES to CONTINUE in a bad path is not living in the 1 John 3:2-3 principle, is he?

And the rest of 1 John 3 indicates that if such a pattern is ONGOING and habitual, that person likely has never been saved.

Read the rest of 1 John 3

 

[Discern]

I disagree based on how you think I have it backwards


I trust the bible

how you apply it seems to be incorrect at many points


feel free to disagree

Does the Bible say that "out of the heart proceed adulteries, fornications, murders, evil thoughts, etc"

Do you trust that part of the Bible.

 

[Discern]

romans 7


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Every man sins. But we are talking about something deliberate, habitual, and ONGOING.

A person that CHOOSES to CONTINUE in a bad path is not living in the 1 John 3:2-3 principle, is he?

And the rest of 1 John 3 indicates that if such a pattern is ONGOING and habitual, that person likely has never been saved.

Read the rest of 1 John 3

 

[EleventhHour]

A "licence to live in sin" would be approval of sin. I have never heard even one person here who says God will allow them to live in sin with no chastening as a Father would do to correct His child.


Those here who believe in eternal security see sin as something horrible and to be delivered from. They just trust in Christ to justify them before God appart from works.


I have only heard people who love lies and hate truth act as if anyone who trusts in Christ has a "licence to live in sin" by definition.

License to sin .... is a reference that sin can and will be committed because we know salvation is unconditional.

However no needs a licence to sin....so once again the term is meaningless.

 

[PS]

A "licence to live in sin" would be approval of sin. I have never heard even one person here who says God will allow them to live in sin with no chastening as a Father would do to correct His child.


Those here who believe in eternal security see sin as something horrible and to be delivered from. They just trust in Christ to justify them before God appart from works.


I have only heard people who love lies and hate truth act as if anyone who trusts in Christ has a "licence to live in sin" by definition.

romans 7


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 3 is for the beloved. They are the Sons of God and are living a life that is pleasing to Him.

 

[Discern]

A clear hypothetical to illustrate an answer is far different some nebulous situation that has no answer.

the answer to my question can be found in FIRST JOHN 3 and other places...

The answer is yes, if I am so sinful that I can leave my wife and live in adultery for the rest of my life, it is POSSIBLE that I have never been saved. Simple and irrefutable

 

[EleventhHour]

the answer to my question can be found in FIRST JOHN 3 and other places...

Well not really since John is writing about the two parts of the believer.

 

[PS]

License to sin .... is a reference that sin can and will be committed because we know salvation is unconditional.

However no needs a licence to sin....so once again the term is meaningless.

Unconditional means even the vilest sinner is saved.

It does not mean they can continue in their old ways. Salvation is a life changing experience.

 

[Discern]

Well not really since John is writing about the two parts of the believer.

Where does 1 John 3 mention two parts of the believers?

1 John 3 is talking about the children of God and the children of the wicked one. You are not both a child of God and a child of the devil. IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[EleventhHour]

Are people being so defensive and guarded that not even a point that CH Spurgeon and other OSAS teachers would agree with is creating such a controversy?

I do not agree with Spurgeon then... and might I add this has been a central theme for you from the start..."perserverance of the saints" as taught by John Calvin and those that ascribe to his dogma.