Not By Works

[BillG]

You say man has three parts then give four different words: The word flesh (Greek sarks) is not the same as body, though their meaning does overlap.

Why is not the same as body?
Is not the body not flesh?

Interesting to note though

Romans 8:8
8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. (NLT)

Romans 8:8
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (NKJV)


NLT translated sarx as sinful nature yet NKJV translates as flesh.

Per Strongs

σάρξ sarx; probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such): — carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).

 

[VCO]

BaptismCanon2NaturalWater

For your information, eternally-gratefull told us the Greek Definition of the word Baptism is 100% accurate.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB)
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body,
{we are immersed by the Holy Spirit into the spiritual body of Christ, the moment we genuinely Believe.}
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and
we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Notice: ALL includes the Thief on the Cross.


QUOTE:
Baptize
Usage Number: A-1
Part Of Speech: Noun
Strong's Number: <G908>
Original Word: βάπτισμα, baptisma
Usage Notes: "baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from baptō, "to dip")

Usage Number: B-1
Part Of Speech: Verb
Strong's Number: <G907>
Original Word: βαπτίζω, baptizō
Usage Notes: "to baptize," primarily a frequentative form of baptō, "to dip," was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc.


Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words. :END QUOTE

 

[Chris1975]

I can read your MOTIVES.

However, You are not taking into account the GREEK Verb Tenses that are the words that we do have the exact meaning for in ENGLISH.
And Greek PRESENT TENSE is One of those Verbs.


QUOTE:
1. PRESENT TENSE
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, "The sun is rising," you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.

In contrast, Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.
. . .
https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained :END QUOTE

In GREEK we have SIX primary verb tenses, in ENGLISH we have only THREE primary verb tenses. You will find that in 1 John, JOHN is VERY FOND of the GREEK PRESENT TENSE verbs, as most of them are in the Gk. Present Tense. It is TOTALLY NOT LIKE OUR Present Tense. In fact we do not have that TENSE in our Language. So we had to make do, even though it does not convey the exact meaning. Which makes ENGLISH a POOR Language to translate the Bible Into.

1 John 3:9 (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Sinning is in the GREEK PRESENT TENSE: It NEVER Implies PERFECTION. It IMPLIES a LIFESTYLE of Striving to Do that VERB. In other words your life is characterized by striving not to SIN. Yes, we will stumble into sin, but we get right up, GO to 1 John 1:9, and CONFESS it and get right back to striving Not to sin. That Confess IT as Sin, is an LIFESTYLE, of confessing each new sin you find in your life. And it too is in the GREEK PRESENT TENSE.

I guess that now I have Burst your Bubble, if you were starting to think you do not sin anymore. YOU TOO HAVE A SIN NATURE THAT YOU WILL NOT GET RID OF UNTIL YOU GET THAT GLORIFIED BODY. Like I have heard Dr. John MacArthur say an number of times, "A Christian is not sinless, but as they mature, they will sin less, and less, and less."

There are sins of Committion, sins of Omittion, sins of Thoughts, sins of Quick Temper, sins of Anger, sins of NOT paying attention like not paying attention to EVERY ORDINANCE OF MAN, etc., etc. YES, it is a sin to exceed the Posted Speed limit by 1 mph.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. [.That is President Donald Trump if you are an American.]

You are SINNING!

Better get back to studying what all GOD considers SIN. May this verse will help.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good, And does not sin.

Press the little up arrows to see what I said. Its not what you imply above. So don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Chris1975]

I can read your MOTIVES.

However, You are not taking into account the GREEK Verb Tenses that are the words that we do have the exact meaning for in ENGLISH.
And Greek PRESENT TENSE is One of those Verbs.


QUOTE:
1. PRESENT TENSE
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, "The sun is rising," you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.

In contrast, Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.
. . .
https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained :END QUOTE

In GREEK we have SIX primary verb tenses, in ENGLISH we have only THREE primary verb tenses. You will find that in 1 John, JOHN is VERY FOND of the GREEK PRESENT TENSE verbs, as most of them are in the Gk. Present Tense. It is TOTALLY NOT LIKE OUR Present Tense. In fact we do not have that TENSE in our Language. So we had to make do, even though it does not convey the exact meaning. Which makes ENGLISH a POOR Language to translate the Bible Into.

1 John 3:9 (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Sinning is in the GREEK PRESENT TENSE: It NEVER Implies PERFECTION. It IMPLIES a LIFESTYLE of Striving to Do that VERB. In other words your life is characterized by striving not to SIN. Yes, we will stumble into sin, but we get right up, GO to 1 John 1:9, and CONFESS it and get right back to striving Not to sin. That Confess IT as Sin, is an LIFESTYLE, of confessing each new sin you find in your life. And it too is in the GREEK PRESENT TENSE.

I guess that now I have Burst your Bubble, if you were starting to think you do not sin anymore. YOU TOO HAVE A SIN NATURE THAT YOU WILL NOT GET RID OF UNTIL YOU GET THAT GLORIFIED BODY. Like I have heard Dr. John MacArthur say an number of times, "A Christian is not sinless, but as they mature, they will sin less, and less, and less."

There are sins of Committion, sins of Omittion, sins of Thoughts, sins of Quick Temper, sins of Anger, sins of NOT paying attention like not paying attention to EVERY ORDINANCE OF MAN, etc., etc. YES, it is a sin to exceed the Posted Speed limit by 1 mph.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. [.That is President Donald Trump if you are an American.]

You are SINNING!

Better get back to studying what all GOD considers SIN. May this verse will help.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good, And does not sin.

So now that you have typed all of this out, where is the scope for a Christian to live in sin and continue to be saved (based only on what you have written above)?

 

[Chris1975]

You say man has three parts then give four different words: The word flesh (Greek sarks) is not the same as body, though their meaning does overlap.

It is used interchangeably in this context. See Romans 7v24 and then the rest of Ch7 and into Romans 8.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree baptized in greek can be the ceremonial dipping in water, or being immersed into something.
And in coming to faith, we are immersed in the Holy Spirit and into the death and resurrection of Christ.

I have not said it is one or the other but actually both, because the word implies both.
It seems to you, you must exclude water baptism, though clearly it is embedded in Christ and His commands, as well as the practice of the apostles and church.

baptisthēsesthe - means dip, submerge ceremonially acts 1:5

Thayer's Definition

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

This is not my interpretation but the meaning of the greek.
In your sense you are simply wrong.

Water baptism is one type of baptizm
HS baptism is another type

the first type is man baptizing (immersion) in water

the second type is God himself baptizing (immersion or into) the death, burial, body of Christ. Where our sins are washed away. As mentioned in Titus 3 as the washing of regeneration of the HS,

the first type is commanded by God for all children if God after they are saved as a testimony,

the second is an act of God that occurred at the moment of faith to save a lost soul and immerse them in Christ

again EPH 4. ONE baptism. Period not 2! One saves. One is an act of obedience of a saved sinner

 

[mailmandan]

So then if someone is sinning (practices it) they are not saved. Y/N ?

The idea of “practice” is habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on! Those who practice sin demonstrate that they have not been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

 

[BillG]

The idea of “practice” is habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on! Those who practice sin demonstrate that they have not been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Like those Paul addressed in Romans?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A regenerated person is made up of 3 (THREE) parts. Body/Flesh ; Soul; Spirit

The SOUL that sins will die.

You mean, the "soul" not the "body"??

It is the SOUL that makes the CHOICE whether to live by the Spirit or by the Flesh. If your SOUL lives according to the Flesh, your SOUL will go to hell.

You mean, your "soul" will "go to hell" when your "soul" dies? or does it have to wait for your "body" to physically die too, so it can "go to hell" together with it?

If your SOUL is led by the Spirit to put to death the MISDEEDS of the BODY, you (your SOUL) will live.

As I understand it, your "SOUL" is just "your mind, will, emotions [and the like]"; not that it is either "your spirit" or "your body". [identified distinctly, but which you are blurring together and injecting into the text of Rom8 ]

So, in the above quote (at top), you are quoting from Ezekiel 18:4.

Why don't you quote from, say, Numbers 15:28 -

"And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD on behalf of the person [/'SOUL' in kjv] who erred by sinning unintentionally; and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven."



And then, how do you take 1 John 1:8?

"If we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

The minute "we should say" we have no sin, is the minute we LIE [i.e. "sin"]; so whether we acknowledge we have sin, or we deny we have sin, either way, we're doomed (according to your viewpoint).


[pretty sure too many people have been affected by "METHOD-ism"... that there is a "METHOD" we must follow in order to be saved/have His Eternal LIFE in the END (of all of OUR "self-effort"! [nothing about His Divine LIFE, there!])]

 

[PennEd]

When a person is saved they are saved. There’s no staying saved or maintaining your salvation or losing your salvation, you’re simply saved. It’s a one time occurrence that lasts forever. What is it about that basic elementary concept that you fail to understand?

This is the point that our works for salvation friends can never seem to understand.

Replace the word saved or salvation with born (again).

Once you are born (again), you cannot become unborn.
That’s why it’s so important to pin these guys down by asking them if they are a born again child of God, and if they believe they are, how can they ever believe their Father would toss them into the Lake of Fire!!!

 

[Chris1975]

The idea of “practice” is habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on! Those who practice sin demonstrate that they have not been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

And what are the consequences for those who claim to believe in Christ but are found in this willful practice of sin that you describe above?

 

[EleventhHour]

John 16:13-15
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

I have no problem understanding Jesus because I listen to Him and am His disciple. One step at a time.
Some things you shared in response to putting into action Jesus's words, suggests to me you have not done this.

There is a narrow gate and narrow path. There is no other way.
You cannot separate the parts of the gospel, because they form an eternal whole, that takes time and following to see.

Luke 6:45
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Heb 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil

Trying to correct someone who know good from evil suggests error.

I am not sure I understand this post.
Perhaps I did not understand your other post either...it has been that kind of day.

So do agree we are eternally secure or not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

whats the biblical definition of practice in your opinion?

A non believer or child of Satan or unsaved person practices sin. It is all they can do. It is their nature

As John said whoever is born of God can NOT practice sin. Because it is no longer their nature
Will they sin? Yes. If we say we have no sin we are deceived
But will they practice/live in sin? No it’s impossible it’s against their nature they may try but they will fail

 

[Lightskin]

You just said that "it's a one time occurrence that lasts forever" - which means in plain English you believe they stay saved. You just don't like the words "stay saved" because you associate it with beliefs you do not hold. But if this one time occurrence you speak of does last forever then that person stays saved. That is simple English!

I hate to break it to you Einstein but there’s a difference between stays saved and staying saved. Stays saved means saved; a one time occurrence; you’re saved. And not for nothing it’s a stupid, unnecessary description. Staying saved however is an acronym for maintaining your salvation. Big big difference. You’re welcome.

 

[Rosemaryx]

A non believer or child of Satan or unsaved person practices sin. It is all they can do. It is their nature

As John said whoever is born of God can NOT practice sin. Because it is no longer their nature
Will they sin? Yes. If we say we have no sin we are deceived
But will they practice/live in sin? No it’s impossible it’s against their nature they may try but they will fail

I agree...
The sin decreases as Christ increases ...
...xox...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As John said whoever is born of God can NOT practice sin. Because it is no longer their nature
Will they sin? Yes. If we say we have no sin we are deceived

Yeah, 'cept I don't believe in [/hold to] "one-naturism".

But will they practice/live in sin? No it’s impossible it’s against their nature they may try but they will fail

I can agree with the above, for sure. [it eventually fails, even if walking in it long--as some have said, "TIME" is involved, and we don't always judge correctly as to that (1Cor3:1-4 were indeed SAVED persons, but Paul says they are "walking" as mere men, and are yet "fleshly")]

 

[Lightskin]

This is the point that our works for salvation friends can never seem to understand.

Replace the word saved or salvation with born (again).

Once you are born (again), you cannot become unborn.
That’s why it’s so important to pin these guys down by asking them if they are a born again child of God, and if they believe they are, how can they ever believe their Father would toss them into the Lake of Fire!!!

It’s quite astonishing really how some people believe you have to WORK for GRACE. It’s an oxymoronic lesson in futility.

When something is free you don’t pay for it and you can’t pay for it because it has no transferring payment value; IT’S FREE!

 

[dcontroversal]

Indeed, faith is very much involved in the process of justification - it is a vital part of the equation . . . But is that all that there is?

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. And to leave Jesus and the cross and the resurrection out of the equation of salvation also seems incomplete.

That is why I do not say that we are saved by faith alone. Salvation is a complete package and is a free gift given to us by our Redeemer that brings joy, forgiveness, victory over sin today, and heaven in the end! Hallelujah!

Justification is not a process and exactly why you fail to understand salvation.........

Therefore we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED (past TENSE) by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

And to be frank....the BOLDED LINE is ignorant Chester.......because it is FAITH into this truth that SAVES and JUSTIFIES (PAST TENSE)

 

[EleventhHour]

Yeah, 'cept I don't believe in [/hold to] "one-naturism".



I can agree with the above, for sure. [it eventually fails, even if walking in it long--as some have said, "TIME" is involved, and we don't always judge correctly as to that (1Cor3:1-4 were indeed SAVED persons, but Paul says they are "walking" as mere men, and are yet "fleshly")]

Scripture made a lot more sense to me when I understood the different references to the sin nature and Christ within.....one naturism causes many problems.

 

[EleventhHour]

Its worth it.

Reading your recent posts I am not convinced.