Not By Works

[Hevosmies]

The Galatians turned back to Judaism, but Paul was trying to bring them back. Yet, Hebrews says you can't be renewed if you fall away. That tells me there is the point of no return for each of us if we should fall away from trusting in Christ for justification. It must vary depending on where we're at with the Lord in our faith when we left, and for what reason, and if we respond to God's attempts to bring us back. I'm on the side of God being incredibly gracious and patient with the believer toying with unbelief.

Have you ever considered running for political office?

 

[preacher4truth]

He equated believing with works. The point being, if YOU have to believe then YOU are doing something, which is works. Seriously.

In other words you don't have any documentation, nor do you have context, just an accusation.

Your above assertion isn't remotely what MacArthur believes, so, that being said, you're twisting his words and beliefs. John MacArthur, being Reformed and Biblical knows and believes faith is a gift from God, cf. 2 Peter 1:1; Ephesians 1:19; Philippians 1:29 &c. This is a well known fact.

 

[OneOfHis]

I < might > be able to find the video again. I'll poke around.

And probably what you heard him talk positively about is 'Calvinistic' believing. The kind that just kind of comes to you.....and there's nothing you can do about it. You trust Christ because you've been picked to trust Christ and be saved. You yourself don't even do the believing. It just comes to you. (If 'you' did it, that would be 'works').

Biblically, 'faith' is what just comes to you. Faith by pure definition is the knowing that what God testifies to the world through the Holy Spirit is true. Somewhere along the path of life God proves to every sinner, even the worst of sinners that the gospel of Jesus really is true. That is not 'getting saved'. That is simply now having the knowledge that the gospel really is true. From there, most do not retain the truth they were made to see, choosing not to place their trust in it, and they cast it aside. Only a few choose to believe what God has proven to them is true. And there are those who think just knowing the gospel is true has saved them. Knowledge alone never saved anyone, and never will. Only trusting in what you know about the gospel through God's gracious gift of 'knowing' saves.

How does one know they are trusting in the gospel they know is true, and not just aware that the gospel is true? By how you live.

Ok so for the last post you made I'll just assume you made a mistake until I see evidence about that accusation.

Your reply to me then seems to switch the topic to a denomination you believe He holds to or talks positively of?

Let's not pull someones name up or make accusations without proof....


As far as biblical faith how it comes and what it is are two different things.

Faith IS : Belief, trust, confidence, fidelity/loyalty.

If you have this sort of saving faith, I agree it is not a choice. "it just comes".... Praise God


It is an indwelling response to the truth which is met with the power of God and a quicked spirit... the indwelling Holy spirit and we become His sons....

This is salvation, as His sons we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ by grace through faith.... This is how we are justified before God....

Having not our own righteousness but the righteousness of Christ which is by faith..... freely given....


This sort of faith not only sees Christ as the truth, but trusts in Him... has confidence in His words and will remain loyal to Him

KEEP His words and commands
(which is separate from walking perfectly in then)

5083. téreó ►

Strong's Concordance

téreó: to watch over, to guard​

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.


4102. pistis ►

Strong's Concordance

pistis: faith, faithfulness​

Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.​

 

[Discern]

Believers are saved and stayed saved because they have been declared innocent/justified by God which he does not revoke based on a one time belief in the sufficiency of Christ's one time work...not by their behavior after being saved.

Neither I nor Paul said we stay saved because of behaviour after being saved. Paul said, and I agreed, that “we are Christ’s house and have been made partakers of Christ if we hold fast our confidence till the end.

That means we hold fast because we are saved. It does NOT mean we are saved because we hold fast.

Taking note of things like verb tenses is critically important

 

[Judges1318]

So you blame everything on Calvin.

Of course I blame Calvin.
He's the one who got the heresy of once saved always saved (rooted in the teachings of the Gnostics) accepted in the church. Of course the only way that could happen is a new church had been created, for it had been fiercely resisted right from the beginning of the church.

As I said before, I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults teach salvation by works AND strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.

Any church or individual that teaches works earn salvation should be a red flag. The problem is, you and others think believing is one of those works.

What you and others can't defend with the Bible is how believing in Christ is a work that can not justify. As far as I can tell, the fundamental argument being defended by once saved always saved is if YOU do the believing that is a work and, therefore, YOU trying to earn your own salvation.

That's so incredibly ignorant of what Paul himself teaches. 'Works' is not defined by 'anything YOU do'. It is defined as doing the works of the law in order to be declared righteous by God for doing those works. And Paul plainly says, believing in Christ is not one of those works, and even says faith in Christ is utterly opposed to doing works of the law for justification. This, I'm sure, is the crux of the problem--a whole vein of doctrine that thinks believing in Christ can somehow be a self righteous work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course I blame Calvin.
He's the one who got the heresy of once saved always saved (rooted in the teachings of the Gnostics) accepted in the church. Of course the only way that could happen is a new church had been created, for it had been fiercely resisted right from the beginning of the church.


Any church or individual that teaches works earn salvation should be a red flag. The problem is, you and others think believing is one of those works.

What you and others can't defend with the Bible is how believing in Christ is a work that can not justify. As far as I can tell, the fundamental argument being defended by once saved always saved is if YOU do the believing that is a work and, therefore, YOU trying to earn your own salvation.

That's so incredibly ignorant of what Paul himself teaches. 'Works' is not defined by 'anything YOU do'. It is defined as doing the works of the law in order to be declared righteous by God for doing those works. And Paul plainly says, believing in Christ is not one of those works, and even says faith in Christ is utterly opposed to doing works of the law for justification. This, I'm sure, is the crux of the problem--a whole vein of doctrine that thinks believing in Christ can somehow be a self righteous work.

What a joke

Calvin did not make up the words eternal life

He did nto make up the term sealed by the spirit until the day of redemption

He di dnot make up the words will ever hunger thirst, Die

He did not make up the words live forever.

Your stuck in your own way, Your trying to fight a doctrine made by a man you can not stand, and not biblical truth. To see what the Bible says and not your own way

I do not like calvinistic fatalism either. But the truth is the true in spite of my feelingS

 

[Judges1318]

...I agreed, that “we are Christ’s house and have been made partakers of Christ if we hold fast our confidence till the end.

That means we hold fast because we are saved. It does NOT mean we are saved because we hold fast.

Romans 11 warns us that if you do not continue in faith you will be cut off. That defeats the interpretation of passages like Hebrews 3 to mean we hold fast in believing because we are partakers of Christ. We are partakers of Christ because we hold fast in faith, believing. That is what the early church immediately following the Apostles said Romans 11 was teaching.

Romans 11:17-22 NAS
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul says those who presently stand by faith are not to be so cocksure about their position, for if they stop believing, they will be cut off. Even you try to make it about being cut off from blessings instead of eternal life/ salvation, it stills shows that continued believing determines partaking, not partaking determines continued belief as once saved always saved insists.

 

[Judges1318]

Taking note of things like verb tenses is critically important

It is VERY important.
Mainly because Greek verbs rarely correlate directly to English verbs.

Here, bookmark this.

https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained/

It's a valuable and easily understood reference to go to when discerning the meaning and intent of Greek verbs. It's a gold mine of information if you'll carefully read and understand everything said in it. Example:

"the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. It gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect."

 

[Discern]

It is VERY important.
Mainly because Greek verbs rarely correlate directly to English verbs.

Here, bookmark this.

https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained/

It's a valuable and easily understood reference to go to when discerning the meaning and intent of Greek verbs. It's a gold mine of information if you'll carefully read and understand everything said in it. Example:

"the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. It gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect."

Good point. But...

The verb in “made partakers” in Hebrews 3:14 is perfect tense, not aorist

In Hebrews 3:6, the verb “we are” in the phrase “whose house we are” is present tense, with the “if” being future “ if we hold fast etc”.

 

[Discern]

Romans 11 warns us that if you do not continue in faith you will be cut off. That defeats the interpretation of passages like Hebrews 3 to mean we hold fast in believing because we are partakers of Christ. We are partakers of Christ because we hold fast in faith, believing. That is what the early church immediately following the Apostles said Romans 11 was teaching.

Romans 11:17-22 NAS
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul says those who presently stand by faith are not to be so cocksure about their position, for if they stop believing, they will be cut off. Even you try to make it about being cut off from blessings instead of eternal life/ salvation, it stills shows that continued believing determines partaking, not partaking determines continued belief as once saved always saved insists.

The fact remains that the tense of the verb in “made partakers” is perfect tense, making it a completed action

If we have been made partakers (completed action in past time), we will hold fast (aorist active subjunctive) the beginning of our assurance firm to the end.

 

[Melach]

Of course I blame Calvin.
He's the one who got the heresy of once saved always saved (rooted in the teachings of the Gnostics) accepted in the church. Of course the only way that could happen is a new church had been created, for it had been fiercely resisted right from the beginning of the church.

you are defending roman catholic churches here indirectly.

he wasnt first to preach once saved always saved and didnt even preach it then way its preached today. he preach perseverence of saints its tulip p of tulip. and its not rooted in gnostic teachings.

if you guys ever see someone say its gnostic remember that there are many kinds of gnostics. some people in that group were very harsh and ascetic they dont even drink wine for communion but water. some were extremely evil and sinful like nicolaitans Jesus talks about in revelation, they belief you can sin as much you want because it only affect your body not soul.

so you have there many wings of it. you also got marcionism where its different god in ot than n.t. something close to what that heretic PS believes

 

[Judges1318]

Good point. But...

The verb in “made partakers” in Hebrews 3:14 is perfect tense, not aorist

In Hebrews 3:6, the verb “we are” in the phrase “whose house we are” is present tense, with the “if” being future “ if we hold fast etc”.

I was referring to the 'we hold' verb.

The part about being partakers is not the point in dispute.

 

[Discern]

Of course I blame Calvin.
He's the one who got the heresy of once saved always saved (rooted in the teachings of the Gnostics) accepted in the church. Of course the only way that could happen is a new church had been created, for it had been fiercely resisted right from the beginning of the church.


Any church or individual that teaches works earn salvation should be a red flag. The problem is, you and others think believing is one of those works.

What you and others can't defend with the Bible is how believing in Christ is a work that can not justify. As far as I can tell, the fundamental argument being defended by once saved always saved is if YOU do the believing that is a work and, therefore, YOU trying to earn your own salvation.

That's so incredibly ignorant of what Paul himself teaches. 'Works' is not defined by 'anything YOU do'. It is defined as doing the works of the law in order to be declared righteous by God for doing those works. And Paul plainly says, believing in Christ is not one of those works, and even says faith in Christ is utterly opposed to doing works of the law for justification. This, I'm sure, is the crux of the problem--a whole vein of doctrine that thinks believing in Christ can somehow be a self righteous work.

Ephesians 2:10 says that both faith and salvation not of ourselves, but is the gift of God. Notice the singular noun gift but two descriptors of this gift and the singular verb “is”. Faith and salvation comprise one gift.

 

[Discern]

I was referring to the 'we hold' verb.

The part about being partakers is not the point in dispute.

But there are the words “until the end” that are included.

So we have been made partaker, past completed action if (subjunctive verb ahead) we hold fast until the end.

 

[Discern]

Ephesians 2:10 says that both faith and salvation not of ourselves, but is the gift of God. Notice the singular noun gift but two descriptors of this gift and the singular verb “is”. Faith and salvation comprise one gift.

The reason we know that gift encompasses both faith and salvation encompass the one gift is because Paul uses a neuter demonstrative pronoun in the phrase “not of ourselves” when both nouns Grace and faith are feminine in gender

 

[Judges1318]

The fact remains that the tense of the verb in “made partakers” is perfect tense, making it a completed action

If we have been made partakers (completed action in past time), we will hold fast (aorist active subjunctive) the beginning of our assurance firm to the end.

The completed action ENDS if you no longer hold fast what you heard.
This is consistent with Romans 11. You're interpretation is not.

The simple completed fact of being a partaker will stay that way IF you have the snapshot action, that may or may not continue, of holding fast.

 

[preacher4truth]

@Judges1318

Just an honest question, as you seem familiar. Is this your first visit here, or are you the return of FranC, godsgrace, or that ralph kid?

 

[preacher4truth]

The completed action ENDS if you no longer hold fast what you heard.
This is consistent with Romans 11. You're interpretation is not.

The simple completed fact of being a partaker will stay that way IF you have the snapshot action, that may or may not continue, of holding fast.

Romans 11 is not about loss of ones personal salvation in Christ, i.e. being "cut off."

 

[Judges1318]

Ephesians 2:10 says that both faith and salvation not of ourselves, but is the gift of God. Notice the singular noun gift but two descriptors of this gift and the singular verb “is”. Faith and salvation comprise one gift.

No argument here.
But I sense your bias that a gift is only a gift if you do NOTHING at all, nada, to have it, or else it's not really a gift.
Forgive the brevity and lack of explanation, but I'm at work and post either off the clock or during downloads, etc.

 

[Judges1318]

Romans 11 is not about loss of ones personal salvation in Christ, i.e. being "cut off."

Even if Romans 11 isn't about being cut off from Christ in salvation (but it is) the point I made was the partaking is conditional on 'continuing in his kindness', not as is being argued that the 'continuing' remains because of the partaking. That is what me and discern are discussing.