Not By Works

[VCO]

Didn't you try to use 'the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' to prove that believers can't lose their salvation? Yes, or no?

One thing you need to know about the Galatians, you do not go through the NARROW GATE in Groups, each individual has to go through that gate all by himself with JESUS doing the Salvation ALL THE WAY. JESUS DID IT ALL.

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


IT IS NOT ETERNAL IF IT IS NOT FOREVER, or YOU CAN LOSE IT.


Proverbs 12:28 (HCSB)
28 There is life in the path of righteousness, but another path leads to death. {Hades.}

Matthew 7:13-16 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?


2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


GOD's SEAL CANNOT BE BROKEN, REVOKED, or LOST.

JESUS DID IT ALL!

You also need to know that on this site, we have a personal tool, when a person gets TOO divisive, we can permanently IGNORE their posts, and after that their posts does not even show up on Our Screens.


Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.


So the next post if you continue to argue, that will be your First Warning. Therefore, if you will not accept the verses we post, it is time to agree to disagree.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

NOT EVERYONE THAT CALLS THEMSELVES A DISCIPLE IS SAVED. Disciple means temporary follower. THEY ARE NOT CHILDREN of GOD until they RECEIVE HIM as LORD permanently, there is how they KNOW HIM. Knowing HIM as LORD AND MASTER of our LIVES, is BORN AGAIN, or Entering by way of the NARROW GATE. You are counting disciples, NOT BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!

Matthew 7:13-23 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 6:66-67 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

1 John 2:19 (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


ONLY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS ARE SAVED, and THEY WILL KNOW they are Born Again, and KNOW HIM.

Now if this is perceived by you as pure foolishness, HERE IS THE REASON:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just because someone chooses to say they follow Christ and are His disciple does not make them as such.
I understand that you were using an extreme example to prove your point, thank you for that.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) but as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him. True disciples of the Master continue.

In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine." Those who do not continue in His word demonstrate that they are not truly disciples of Jesus. Temporarily setting out to be a learner and follower of Christ, but then permanently turning away later when the going gets tough or your expectations are not met, demonstrates that you were not truly His disciple, as with Judas Iscariot who an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).

Totally agree with you MMD. Good references from Scripture as well

A person who has no faith denies Jesus, and is termed antichrist, because they are against christ

the apostle John, who walked with Christ for three years let’s us know about these impostors who used to walk among us in church. Vs those who remain in faith,

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

as you can see

the true believer has the anointing, the false believer who never had true living faith never had the donor the father, and were never part of the true living church. They did not lose salvation, they never had it, and their departure in unbelief manifested the fact they were never of us.

the author of hebrews, who wrote another highly contested passage about falling away, had this to say about our security in Christ.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

as you can see, the author says clearly, by christs sacrifice, those of us who are in the process of being sanctified (Ie, god is sanctifying us, we are not sanctifying ourselves) have been perfected forever,

we also have the passages that say we HAVE.ETERNAL LIFE. The he will NEVER LOSE EVEN ONE our SEAL OF THE SPIRIT which can not be broken, and all the other passages which show our justification is eternal, our sanctification is conditional, but our eternity is assured, even when we are faithless (without faith) he is faithful ,he can not deny himself

our salvation is purchased by his blood and his promise. If he does not keep his word, in spite of us, he is the one who is faithless, and a liar

these people want you to believe salvation is iffy, only yours if you do this,from the many sacraments of the Catholic church, to these who simply say, remain in faith, all legalism and all self savers, denying the promises and perfect gift of Christ

Totally agree with your post as well EG.
They were never saved to begin with, nor did they truly believe.

Also, I have seen the drove of the workers for salvation coming in and out of this thread trying to say salvation is iffy, with every kind of twisting of the Scriptures to sell a lie that God needs you to work for your salvation or top it off with works. It is God who works through us and for us.

Those of us who have been saved by grace through faith for doing nothing but trusting and believing in Christ at His Word to save us, see right through them. They are like the Joe Isuzus, of a bunk religion, trying to sell you a fake Jesus ...Woe to them!
(Btw, God supplies the faith and grace and the calling)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those who did not love Jesus and leave were never in Christ in the first place. Nominal Christians are a different lot than Holy Spirit God filled Christians.



Come back? Nominal Christians were not there in the first place, so there is nothing o return to.
Not one who has been reborn in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit leaves Jesus' hand.
Those who are in effect atheists who only thought they believed for a time were never a Christian in the first place.
However, if a one of those has an epiphany , as example, and realize they were foolish to not believe in Jesus and are sincerely repentant , God knows their heart and He does not abandon them to their sin.

Galatians 3:1 NIV
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."

That verse in Galatians was Paul's admonishment toward the mostly Gentile congregations of the churches Paul founded in Galatia. And after they'd been taught by Judaizers that they need to be circumcised and other rites, in order to be saved. Those who preached the law of works to them so as to confuse their minds and heart.
Therefore it was the Judaizers to whom Paul referred when he asked, who has bewitched you?[/QUOTE]
The Bible states this as fact sadly people deny it. And claim they are gods children. They claim faith yet do not believe in true faith which comes from gods grace that led us to repentance to
Begin with

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Judas was forgiven from the cross when Jesus said, forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Judas was one of those. He did not realize what he had done when he did what Jesus told him to go and do quickly. Were it not for Judas how else would Jesus have come to be the last lamb's blood sacrifice on the sin alter that is the cross?
How? Any ideas?

Judas was a representative of confessed believers who are false believers in our churches

as Jesus said in John 6 who did not see because they did not believe. And Jesus went further to
Call him the devil.

 

[Judges1318]

the author of hebrews, who wrote another highly contested passage about falling away, had this to say about our security in Christ.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

as you can see, the author says clearly, by christs sacrifice, those of us who are in the process of being sanctified (Ie, god is sanctifying us, we are not sanctifying ourselves) have been perfected forever,

The Galatians were perfected through justification in Christ, but they fell away to keeping the law for justification. So we know being perfected forever does not mean you'll stay in that perfection forever. It means the perfection you get through Christ will last forever and you don't need to keep making sacrifices year after year as you did in the old system. That's why Paul encourages the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church to not fall away from the perfection they have in Christ. Don't abandon that which makes you perfect before the Father in heaven.

 

[Judges1318]

Judas was forgiven from the cross when Jesus said, forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Judas was one of those. He did not realize what he had done when he did what Jesus told him to go and do quickly. Were it not for Judas how else would Jesus have come to be the last lamb's blood sacrifice on the sin alter that is the cross?
How? Any ideas?

The scriptures are clear that Judas is lost. The reference escapes me at the moment.

 

[Judges1318]

we also have the passages that say we HAVE.ETERNAL LIFE.

Yes, the life God gives through faith in Christ will never end. So don't throw away the life that never ends by going back to some other way to be justified.

 

[Judges1318]

The he will NEVER LOSE EVEN ONE our SEAL OF THE SPIRIT which can not be broken, and all the other passages which show our justification is eternal, our sanctification is conditional, but our eternity is assured, even when we are faithless (without faith) he is faithful ,he can not deny himself

I see you don't believe Calvinism either. Or do you, because weren't you just saying in this very same post that those who don't continue in Christ were never saved to begin with? Which do you believe? Do exbelievers continue to be saved as you are saying above, or were they never saved to begin with as you said earlier?

 

[Judges1318]

The he will NEVER LOSE EVEN ONE...

...If he does not keep his word, in spite of us, he is the one who is faithless, and a liar

Apart from the 'in spite of us' part, what you say is right.
That's what Jesus 'not losing any' means. People aren't lost because of some flaw or fault in Jesus.
It's the fault of the person who chose not to remain in the word, or who was never in the word to begin with.

 

[mailmandan]

The scriptures are clear that Judas is lost. The reference escapes me at the moment.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Judges1318]

A person who has no faith denies Jesus, and is termed antichrist, because they are against christ

the apostle John, who walked with Christ for three years let’s us know about these impostors who used to walk among us in church. Vs those who remain in faith,

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

as you can see

the true believer has the anointing, the false believer who never had true living faith never had the donor the father, and were never part of the true living church. They did not lose salvation, they never had it, and their departure in unbelief manifested the fact they were never of us.

See, here is where you were pushing the Calvinist's view of this subject. Instead of being preserved by Christ despite unfaithfulness as you said earlier, now you are saying the unfaithful person was never saved to begin with.

In the passage he tells these believing, anointed people who know the truth that he's talking to to remain in Christ.

1 John 2:19 KJV
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

1 John 2:26-28 KJV
"26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

That's an apparent contradiction in scripture. He telling true believers, who supposedly don't/can't leave because they are true believers (vs.19), to not be deceived and to abide in him, just as the truth they have has taught them to do (vs.26-28). But since this is the same author saying all these things in the same passage of scripture we know it's not a contradiction. It's a misinterpretation of vs. 19 on the part of once saved always saved doctrine.

Obviously, to keep John from contradicting himself, we can't interpret vs.19 as meaning 'each and every person who leaves the faith was never saved to begin with, no exceptions'. Vs.26-28 keep that from being what he means. He must be talking about a specific group of people and circumstances in vs.19 and not writing hard and fast doctrine.

 

[Whispered]

Judas was a representative of confessed believers who are false believers in our churches

as Jesus said in John 6 who did not see because they did not believe. And Jesus went further to
Call him the devil.

Jesus when speaking with Paul said unto him, get behind me Satan. The Book of Matthew chapter 16

 

[Whispered]

Yes, the life God gives through faith in Christ will never end. So don't throw away the life that never ends by going back to some other way to be justified.

We are not to rely on feelings. How we feel about being saved, how we feel about being in Christ. We are what the Book tells us we are, and all is as God intended to be understood in the Book; His inspired word.
To that end I will tell you, there is no other way to be justified but by faith in Christ due to God's holy irrevocable grace.

Justified=dikaiosis dikaivwsi

 

[Whispered]

Completely contradictory................... according to scripture "genuine" is not needed... one is either justified or is not justified, it is a position conferred by God and it cannot be broken.

Basically you promote a Gospel of works where salvation is gained/maintained by one's faithfulness...this is incorrect.

Tsk, Tsk!!

Perhaps their using the word, genuine, was their way of speaking of Justification? That is what I inferred from reading their pov.

 

[Whispered]

It means just what it says. True disciples continue in the word. As long as you are a true disciple you will abide in the word, and as long as you abide in the word you are a true disciple. You're reading into it that it means a true disciple will never stop continuing in the word and being a disciple. The Galatians were true disciples, yet they did not continue in the word. And neither did the Corinthians.

If your interpretation of John 8:31 and other verses is true then no one can ever know if they are a true disciple of Christ because the time of continuing in the word doesn't end until you die.

The Book of John chapter 8
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]
I Am the Light of the World
12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to him, “You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father[a] who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” 19 They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20 These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.

21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I Am
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[c] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

 

[Judges1318]

Basically you promote a Gospel of works where salvation is gained/maintained by one's faithfulness...this is incorrect.

Justification is gained by trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, and it is kept by continuing to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. You can't stop trusting in Jesus for justification and still have the benefit of Jesus in justification. So, are you saying this argument makes trusting in Jesus a works gospel? If so, giving us the verse that says that will be helpful to your case.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Galatians were perfected through justification in Christ, but they fell away to keeping the law for justification. So we know being perfected forever does not mean you'll stay in that perfection forever. It means the perfection you get through Christ will last forever and you don't need to keep making sacrifices year after year as you did in the old system. That's why Paul encourages the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church to not fall away from the perfection they have in Christ. Don't abandon that which makes you perfect before the Father in heaven.

Paul did not contradict the author of hebrews

either you believe the author of hebrews, or your faulty interpretation of galations

end of discussion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, the life God gives through faith in Christ will never end. So don't throw away the life that never ends by going back to some other way to be justified.

Eternal is forever, if it can be lost or forfeit, it is not eternal

god did not promise of give us conditional life as you are preaching

end of discussion

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see you don't believe Calvinism either. Or do you, because weren't you just saying in this very same post that those who don't continue in Christ were never saved to begin with? Which do you believe? Do exbelievers continue to be saved as you are saying above, or were they never saved to begin with as you said earlier?

I believe in the gospel of Christ, not man made tradition. (Calvinism, Arminianism catholicism etc etc.)

john said those who do not continue in faith were never saved

your argument is with John not me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Apart from the 'in spite of us' part, what you say is right.
That's what Jesus 'not losing any' means. People aren't lost because of some flaw or fault in Jesus.
It's the fault of the person who chose not to remain in the word, or who was never in the word to begin with.

He said he will never lose one period.

as for a persons fault, no man deserves salvation, so if left to a person, all would die seperated from god

you are to focused on self, this proves you preach a false gospel. A true gospel focuses on christ, like david who gave underserving and lame granchild of Saul grace and a place at his table.

gods love leads us to,repentance. That’s why anyone who experiences gods love in salvation will never stop believing, they may grow faithless, but they will never become antichrist denying Christ.