Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

Also @Macabeus no one is stating we are not accountable even in our liberty....because of course we are....however the truth is that it is the assurance of God's grace and the finished work of Christ, that allow Christians to serve and grow under His unconditional love and freedom.

Isn't it the best when someone does something for you that is freely done, from a place of love..... not compulsion?

 

[SimpleGardner]

AMEN......and he still rejects the verbiage of the bible

To him that works NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly <--HIS faith is counted for righteousness......

To him that works not is clear.

Regardless of any any all that say we must have works or we are not saved

Greetings dcontroversal,

At this point it is important to clarify if God forgives the unrepentant.

As Jesus taught us to do in person:

Luk 17:3-4 KJV Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

And in the OT:

2Ch 7:14 KJV If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


And Paul:

2Co 7:10 KJV For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

If we can agree that repentance is necessary and that what brings a man to repentance is a painful awareness that they have broken Gods Laws/Sinned and have no way to make a sacrifice any more as Jesus became the sacrifice for sins hence they have to accept His blood sacrifice for their sins as God only recognizes Jesus' sacrifice. Heb 9:22; Lev 17:11 then we can go forward.

Justification

Salvation

Sanctification

Godly Sorrow

Repentance

Grace

Obedience

Please give your definition to these and which of these must be coupled together to bring them about.

 

[dcontroversal]

Greetings dcontroversal,

At this point it is important to clarify if God forgives the unrepentant.

As Jesus taught us to do in person:

Luk 17:3-4 KJV Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

And in the OT:

2Ch 7:14 KJV If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


And Paul:

2Co 7:10 KJV For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

If we can agree that repentance is necessary and that what brings a man to repentance is a painful awareness that they have broken Gods Laws/Sinned and have no way to make a sacrifice any more as Jesus became the sacrifice for sins hence they have to accept His blood sacrifice for their sins as God only recognizes Jesus' sacrifice. Heb 9:22; Lev 17:11 then we can go forward.

Justification

Salvation

Sanctification

Godly Sorrow

Repentance

Grace

Obedience

Please give your definition to these and which of these must be coupled together to bring them about.

Your first two cited examples have no bearing on the root of this thread and or what I said in the referenced quote....

The first is man forgiving HIS BROTHER based upon being rebuked and acknowledging said rebuke

The second was directed at Israel and was based upon the covenant of LAW they were under....OBEDIENCE for BLESSING

We are under GRACE and for the believer---->WHERE sin ABOUNDS, grace abounds the MORE....God's grace is preemptive for a believer......this is evidenced by the conversation between David and Nathan.......

Lastly......the word repent means to change one's mind and agree with GOD..........so....seeing how I have never said otherwise....not sure what point you are trying to make.....

 

[SimpleGardner]

Your first two cited examples have no bearing on the root of this thread and or what I said in the referenced quote....

The first is man forgiving HIS BROTHER based upon being rebuked and acknowledging said rebuke

The second was directed at Israel and was based upon the covenant of LAW they were under....OBEDIENCE for BLESSING

We are under GRACE and for the believer---->WHERE sin ABOUNDS, grace abounds the MORE....God's grace is preemptive for a believer......this is evidenced by the conversation between David and Nathan.......

Lastly......the word repent means to change one's mind and agree with GOD..........so....seeing how I have never said otherwise....not sure what point you are trying to make.....

Not really making a point, just trying to establish terms. Are you saying the God forgives an unrepentant sinner?

 

[VCO]

This is what I see 1 John 3:5-10 and other verses is talking about. Verse 8 and verse 10 confirm it. (see passages in red below). They cannot possibly make it more clear that this passage is not talking about two natures in one person (though that is found in other places), it is talking about two different sorts of people.

They do not say that a Christian is sinless and an unbeliever is as evil as they can possibly be. These verses are talking about a person walking according to their nature. A Christian has a new nature and an unbeliever doesn't. It's not talking HERE about two natures in one person, it's talking about two different kinds of people with two different kinds of nature. Interpret the passage in it's OWN context before you interpret it using ideas from another context (like Romans 8)

But if anyone disagrees, we can agree to disagree.

1 John 3:8- He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:10- In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I told you before, learn to define your TERMS. WE do not all MEAN the Same thing, even though we use the same TERMINOLOGY. I do not know for sure what you mean by two Natures in ONE PERSON. I can GUESS what you mean, but that is how the CONFUSION gets started. If I was to GUESS, it would be the two Natures that PAUL DESCRIBED.


Romans 7:17-25 (HCSB)
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

Now to me, that is the DUAL NATURE of a Christian. Sure as we study HIS WORD, we will see the Nature that wants to do GOD WILL, getting Stronger, and Stronger, to Dominate the Will of the Flesh, but will not get rid of the Sin Nature until the Resurrection.

You do know that JOHN prefers to us the Greek Present tense VERBIAGE, so most of the verbs in 1 John, are implying a lifestyle of doing that Verb, not the Perfection of that Verb. Something that we do not have in ENGLISH. For example.

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Because the verbiage is Present Tense in the GREEK, it implies NOT PERFECTION, but a lifestyle of Striving to Keep His commandments.

That may be why you are not seeing what it actually says.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not really making a point, just trying to establish terms. Are you saying the God forgives an unrepentant sinner?

If you really believe the bolded, either you are not reading what I wrote and or are severely lacking in the comprehensive area.........quote me saying that God forgives the unrepentant sinner.....and then explain to me what it means when God states...where sin abounds, GRACE abounds the more........and what does justified mean and sanctified positionally mean (both eternally given with salvation)....and explain how, when and how long is the blood applied for.....and then explain.....

Incorruptible seed
Irrevocable <---gifts and calling of GOD---->salvation is a gift

Explain.....It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE......etc.......

 

[SimpleGardner]

If you really believe the bolded, either you are not reading what I wrote and or are severely lacking in the comprehensive area.........quote me saying that God forgives the unrepentant sinner.....and then explain to me what it means when God states...where sin abounds, GRACE abounds the more........and what does justified mean and sanctified positionally mean (both eternally given with salvation)....and explain how, when and how long is the blood applied for.....and then explain.....

Incorruptible seed
Irrevocable <---gifts and calling of GOD---->salvation is a gift

Explain.....It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE......etc.......

Greetings dvcontroversal,

Not sure if you are getting frustrated, but I am honestly just trying to figure out where you are and what you mean. I would still like to get a concise glossary of terms that we can both work from so we can be sure we are not misunderstanding what each other is saying. Perhaps we can continue at a better time.

 

[theanointedwinner]

say for example I disagree with ... I'll make up a name "riven"

ok, first, I want to be secure in what I think so I can express my opinion clearly (write a note to yourself so you will remember your own thoughts if necessary), secondly, consider stepping into the other's person's shoes and say something like

riven, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say "Jesus being tortured is sadistic" do you mean "the roman solders or the Jews were sadistic, that Satan was also sadistic, if that's what you mean, then I would agree with you, unless if I misunderstand you, please clarify"

or something about addressing the other person's position and guide them and help them see what you are thinking instead of obsessively stamping truth hoping that they get truth, while it's possible that both agree yet "arguing semantics"

 

[dcontroversal]

Greetings dvcontroversal,

Not sure if you are getting frustrated, but I am honestly just trying to figure out where you are and what you mean. I would still like to get a concise glossary of terms that we can both work from so we can be sure we are not misunderstanding what each other is saying. Perhaps we can continue at a better time.

Not frustrated at all......What I have said is clear enough migo.......and a man that is LOST and dead in sin cannot be compared to a SON that has been forgiven eternally in Christ with the blood applied and the righteousness of the Son of GOD imputed to their account....when GOD looks at a saved man he sees the righteousness and blood of his HOLY SINLESS SON and hence a believer is immersed into a positioning of GRACE and SAID grace deals with and out bounds our SINS and preemptively deals with our sin.........

Why does the the HOLY SPIRIT convict or convince the world of SIN? <----BECAUSE they do not believe on the one who was sent

 

[theanointedwinner]

what are some terms that needs defining

perhaps we can start a dictionary thread

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Not really making a point, just trying to establish terms. Are you saying the God forgives an unrepentant sinner?

Some who claim a believer can fall into the state of being an unrepentant sinner, and still find
fellowship and acceptance by God, because of previous faith in Him.

My take is an unrepentant sinner will lose their faith and will therefore not be saved.
It could be only those who are not the elect can ever fall into this state, except the elect will
always come back.

It is odd to think that focussing on being saved probably implies one has not grasped salvation.
Salvation is an indwelling by the Holy Spirit, a communion with God that transcends life.
It is like saying the point about having a meal is to sit at the table, while it is about eating and
then going on to do the next thing one has to do.

I was struck today about a sad situation in our church. A young man has terminal cancer, who
the Lord answered prayer to give them relief for 3 years or there abouts. The cancer has returned
and they are in great pain. Are we to accept the Lords will, and His grace, and let go, or demand
that this is tradgedy without reconciliation, though many suffer and are released and yet we raise
little in prayer or requests. The Lord always answers, but He is soveriegn, and we are His servants.
When we are so unbelievably blessed how often we turn round and declare it is not enough, rather
than bow in humble thankfulness for the unbounded blessing we receive each day, thank you Jesus,
for love, and the life you surround us with, Amen.

 

[UnderGrace]

My take is an unrepentant sinner will lose their faith and will therefore not be saved.

How can an unrepentant sinner loose their faith?

Sir I really think you need to review/understand the true Gospel would you like me to send you a link....it is not a problem at all.

 

[theanointedwinner]

How would follow... define love?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

How can an unrepentant sinner loose their faith?

Sir I really think you need to review/understand the true Gospel would you like me to send you a link....it is not a problem at all.

A sinner is someone who wilfully sins. Unrepentant is someone who refuses to acknowledge
the evil they are doing and to turn from this behaviour and walk in the way of love.

Anyone can fall into such a state, believer or unbeliever.
If a believer falls into this state, it can be so bad they lose their faith.

Now I can only see what others are from the outside, and I have known people to apparently
have this happen to them.

This is not a declaration of the gospel just an observation.
Now if you want to build a theology around such situations, I wonder what is the point?
God will judge as He judges. The fallen away believer is not going to return because of theology
but because they open up to the Lord, and the Lord is always waiting.

And we are commanded to treat believers who wilfully abide in sin as if they are unbelievers and
have nothing to do with them. Once one says the Lord abides with sinners and with their sin, one
has changed what Holiness and redemption actually is.

 

[gb9]

A sinner is someone who wilfully sins. Unrepentant is someone who refuses to acknowledge
the evil they are doing and to turn from this behaviour and walk in the way of love.

Anyone can fall into such a state, believer or unbeliever.
If a believer falls into this state, it can be so bad they lose their faith.

Now I can only see what others are from the outside, and I have known people to apparently
have this happen to them.

This is not a declaration of the gospel just an observation.
Now if you want to build a theology around such situations, I wonder what is the point?
God will judge as He judges. The fallen away believer is not going to return because of theology
but because they open up to the Lord, and the Lord is always waiting.

And we are commanded to treat believers who wilfully abide in sin as if they are unbelievers and
have nothing to do with them. Once one says the Lord abides with sinners and with their sin, one
has changed what Holiness and redemption actually is.

well, yes and no. the first sentence is true.

but, sinning is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, which can be done without willfully doing so.

so. we have to be careful not to create " sin categories " . it can give people a false sense of thinking that as long as they are not willfully doing wrong , then they are not sinning, and need no forgiveness.

we all sin, willful or not, and we all need to be willing to ne truthful about it.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I told you before, learn to define your TERMS. WE do not all MEAN the Same thing, even though we use the same TERMINOLOGY. I do not know for sure what you mean by two Natures in ONE PERSON. I can GUESS what you mean, but that is how the CONFUSION gets started. If I was to GUESS, it would be the two Natures that PAUL DESCRIBED.


Romans 7:17-25 (HCSB)
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

Now to me, that is the DUAL NATURE of a Christian. Sure as we study HIS WORD, we will see the Nature that wants to do GOD WILL, getting Stronger, and Stronger, to Dominate the Will of the Flesh, but will not get rid of the Sin Nature until the Resurrection.

You do know that JOHN prefers to us the Greek Present tense VERBIAGE, so most of the verbs in 1 John, are implying a lifestyle of doing that Verb, not the Perfection of that Verb. Something that we do not have in ENGLISH. For example.

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Because the verbiage is Present Tense in the GREEK, it implies NOT PERFECTION, but a lifestyle of Striving to Keep His commandments.

That may be why you are not seeing what it actually says.

Greetings VCO,

I have been saddened by the twisting of scripture.

How does a man or woman condemn their own family? A child, spouse, parent? Or even themselves!?

If there is someone they love or themselves who is unrepentant and frankly disinterested in God or His laws then they have two choices;

Accept the fate of unrepentant sinners,

or

Accept an interpretation that either identifies all as "saved" or possibly "once saved always saved" for those who casually made a possibly coaxed profession of faith at one time.

On top of that if they are the parent how do they reconcile the responsibility that they had to "bring up a child in the way they should go..." but the child did not accept or essentially departed.

Perhaps there should be a discussion breaching these issues, but I'm sure the desperate will infiltrate and insist that a doctrinal position which saves themselves or an unrepentant family member is the only one that can be true otherwise the horror would be too painful to accept.

This is one of the many explanations I have for the deliberate miscommunication and resistance to "clarifying" the terms. Because once the terms are clarified the fallacy can be confronted.

Jesus warned us, He did not come to bring peace;

Luk 12:51-53 KJV Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (52) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. (53) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

He also warned us the cost of discipleship;

Luk 14:26 KJV If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[SimpleGardner]

well, yes and no. the first sentence is true.

but, sinning is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, which can be done without willfully doing so.

so. we have to be careful not to create " sin categories " . it can give people a false sense of thinking that as long as they are not willfully doing wrong , then they are not sinning, and need no forgiveness.

we all sin, willful or not, and we all need to be willing to ne truthful about it.

 

[dcontroversal]

How can an unrepentant sinner loose their faith?

Sir I really think you need to review/understand the true Gospel would you like me to send you a link....it is not a problem at all.

AMEN....PETER is a fraud for sure.......a fake pseudo gospel that aims for perfection while leaving JESUS at the door and hoping one in the end is saved.....a total devaluation of JESUS and his works/promises.......makes me want to vomit

 

[dcontroversal]

well, yes and no. the first sentence is true.

but, sinning is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, which can be done without willfully doing so.

so. we have to be careful not to create " sin categories " . it can give people a false sense of thinking that as long as they are not willfully doing wrong , then they are not sinning, and need no forgiveness.

we all sin, willful or not, and we all need to be willing to ne truthful about it.

The day he is actually truthful is the day he actually acknowledges JESUS by faith and places TRUST into CHRIST.....One who states the following is false...end of story...

a. We are not saved to the end
b. Salvation can be lost or peddled away like a 'British pound" on the street

 

[dcontroversal]

The lack of understanding by some is sickening when it comes to a saved child of God that falters in sin!!!

Take note of anyone who does not obey the instructions we have given in this letter. Do not associate with him, so that he may be ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.