Not By Works

dcontroversal · May 12, 2019

VCO said:

Listen up
HereticsAreVileWorms:

God will not appreciate your sense of humor:

Ephesians 5:4 (NASB)
4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

Romans 13:9-10 (NASB)
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 12:14 (NASB)
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Romans 12:16-19 (NASB)
16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Ephesians 5:11 (NASB)
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

Titus 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2 to malign no one [Websters: Evil in nature, Vicious ill will], to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

James 4:11 (NASB)
11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. . . .

1 Peter 3:10-11 (NASB)
10 For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
11 "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

Hebrews 12:5-8 (NASB)
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

AMEN........10 to 1 a previously banned vindictive ex member.....being ignorant...!!

VCO · May 12, 2019

theanointedwinner said:

This type of Crop Seeder is used while planting:

Then when the crop gets knee high, you use CULTIVATOR to loose up the soil and get some of the weeds out.

Why did you ask?

theanointedwinner · May 12, 2019

VCO said:

I hope to better understand the seed and soil analogy

I wanted to ask "why does water hardens soil" based on observation

VCO · May 13, 2019

theanointedwinner said:

Back in BIBLE times it would have all be hand made hand tools.

You all of us farm boys get big laugh out of the way city folks misinterpret the parable of the Soils.

The only one capable to raise a crop until the fruit is ready to harvest. is the good soil.

FollowHisSteps · May 13, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

dcontroversal said:

My point is simple. I could say life + breathing is false.
But the second part is part of the first. You cannot have life without breathing. If you do not breath
you die.

So likewise to live we have to perform actions, and these actions consume things, use them up, and they
have to come from somewhere and be owned by someone. How we interact daily with others matters.

It is a reflection of who we are and what we have become.

So my point is simple. Faith in Jesus effects the good we do and the evil we avoid.
Let me put this into perspective. I can claim to be a peaceful man, while carrying the ability to kill
someone within a few seconds by having a gun. So which is true? My claim to be peaceful or the need
I have to kill others, for whatever reason? I can say I trust the Lord, yet rely on worldly things to keep
me safe. If my protections are removed, as Job found, it does not mean we do not trust the Lord, but we
can deceive ourselves.

I have a friend, who likes being an evangelist, and being uncompromising. Unfortunately this leads to
condemning others who do not express things are firmly as he does, though this is the church to which
he belongs. This makes me wonder if sometimes we become too fond of our "status" in our own eyes,
and fail to see love and grace we need to express to others. God bless you.

FollowHisSteps · May 13, 2019

dcontroversal said:

"absolute truth" "utterly confused" "reeks of dishonesty"

There is so much here that is brutal.
If ones perspective is absolute, you have just become God and not a man.
My position is a common christian perspective, so not "utterly confused"
I am addressing the issue that you cannot separate actions from Faith.

What I find illuminating is you need such strong language to oppose the obvious.
This is what pomposity does to an individual when they start to believe their own propoganda.
But then part of what you are sharing is Gods word, we stand through faith alone, Amen.

It is the cross that establishes our lives in Christ, that lays the foundation to giving and receiving
others, knowing we are purchased by His blood, redeemed from the world through His work alone,
and we are His body working in the world to the Praise of His Glory, Amen.

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in
the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2

FollowHisSteps · May 13, 2019

57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give
yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain
1 Cor 15

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5

10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble
1 John 2

18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful
human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man
is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2

8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him;
he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3

What a promise. Loving brothers and sisters in Christ means nothing in us makes us stumble.
So answer this question my friends. Do you love me?
This is a hard question to answer as you do not know me, but whatever you think I am, do you love me?

Now I know my heart can be hurt, angry, complaining, discouraged, but it is also healed, forgiven, living,
whole, praising God through the things He has achieved around us. And I desire that you find love and
blessing, peace and joy through Jesus Christ our Lord, and are encouraged to walk in His grace and love,
Amen.

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

This is an interesting sentence "Faith + works"
It assumes by speaking this you can seperate Faith from its results. The results of faith show
its source. Apostle Peter was shocked when his love of Jesus, and the confusion of Jesus accepting
arrest, and submitting to death simply made no sense to a friend who knew Jesus would not die,
and victory was assured. But there he was denying Jesus, when he could be exposed and arrested
himself, while he was happy to see what was going to happen.

This broke him, so certain and yet so wrong. Faith is only true if it leads to life and has the right
direction. Yet some really believe faith can have whatever effect, and it is still right and true.
Once you say no, faith shows itself by the fruit of the Spirit in someones life, then Amen, welcome
brother and sister in Christ. What is sad is those who think there is a dispute here, when in truth,
something else is at play in some hearts.

Maybe the idea of belief, however expressed matters more than the reality in a believers heart, and
only the right signs matter. This seems to be a denial of what love really is, and wanting truth of
expression and real cleansing so people are truly walking in the Holy Spirit, and not just a religious
belief system. It is little wonder those who hate belief systems and fake expressions, might themselves
fall for the same deception. You know things are fake, when you accept everything is fake. Kind of poetic,
saying truth is actually admiting everything is fake. This is Christ is actually a lie. We are the speakers of
truth, because it is Christ in us calling out to the world bringing hope to the lost.

As a point of clarification...

Grace is received by faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

Faith alone saves. We are fully saved by grace through faith not of works (Ephesians 2:9)

Then Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, live soberly and righteously, and to be zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-15)

And Grace takes us by the hand and brings us all the way to Glory. (Philippians 1:6)

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

This is an interesting sentence "Faith + works"
It assumes by speaking this you can seperate Faith from its results. The results of faith show
its source. Apostle Peter was shocked when his love of Jesus, and the confusion of Jesus accepting
arrest, and submitting to death simply made no sense to a friend who knew Jesus would not die,
and victory was assured. But there he was denying Jesus, when he could be exposed and arrested
himself, while he was happy to see what was going to happen.

This broke him, so certain and yet so wrong. Faith is only true if it leads to life and has the right
direction. Yet some really believe faith can have whatever effect, and it is still right and true.
Once you say no, faith shows itself by the fruit of the Spirit in someones life, then Amen, welcome
brother and sister in Christ. What is sad is those who think there is a dispute here, when in truth,
something else is at play in some hearts.

Maybe the idea of belief, however expressed matters more than the reality in a believers heart, and
only the right signs matter. This seems to be a denial of what love really is, and wanting truth of
expression and real cleansing so people are truly walking in the Holy Spirit, and not just a religious
belief system. It is little wonder those who hate belief systems and fake expressions, might themselves
fall for the same deception. You know things are fake, when you accept everything is fake. Kind of poetic,
saying truth is actually admiting everything is fake. This is Christ is actually a lie. We are the speakers of
truth, because it is Christ in us calling out to the world bringing hope to the lost.

I would put it slightly different. I would say that you cannot seperate GRACE from it's results. Titus 2:11-14 list the intended results of GRACE.

gb9 · May 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

now that your new obsession is Titus 2, maybe one day you keep reading and get to chapter 3, which speaks loudly about salvation being a gift, and saved people should do good works, because they are saved.

gb9 · May 13, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give
yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain
1 Cor 15

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5

10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble
1 John 2

18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful
human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man
is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2

8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him;
he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3

What a promise. Loving brothers and sisters in Christ means nothing in us makes us stumble.
So answer this question my friends. Do you love me?
This is a hard question to answer as you do not know me, but whatever you think I am, do you love me?

Now I know my heart can be hurt, angry, complaining, discouraged, but it is also healed, forgiven, living,
whole, praising God through the things He has achieved around us. And I desire that you find love and
blessing, peace and joy through Jesus Christ our Lord, and are encouraged to walk in His grace and love,
Amen.

I desire that you would one day accept that words have definitions , and we need to use these to determine righteousness and sin.

doing the right thing, or the wrong thing, is determined by the definitions of them, NOT because we " feel" like we do or not.

feelings and emotions do NOT determine reality.

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

Exactly what I said in post 100,088.

Read the posts, GB

FollowHisSteps · May 13, 2019

gb9 said:

I agree feeling and emotions do not define reality, but they shape our perception of reality.
It is clear you find accepting our limitations difficult to cope with, and continually return to this point,
as if you are free from such considerations. Jesus declared simply we cannot judge anything until we
have removed the blindness within.

Jesus put it in terms of light.

35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted,
as when the light of a lamp shines on you."
Luke 11

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light
because their deeds were evil.
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his
deeds will be exposed.
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that
what he has done has been done through God."
John 3

I wish those who claim to follow Jesus would also acknowledge our need to walk in the light, to be
clear and straightforward, to raise a lamp to how they walk and to desire to walk as Jesus walked.
The fact for some this is impossible suggests they still walk in darkness and have not let the light of
Gods love cleanse them from all unrighteousness.

gb9 · May 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

I do read the posts. but, I spend much more time reading the Bible.

what you and others do is say " we are saved by grace", then you go on to say that doing good works is a sign of grace received .

that is the decpeption you and others put out there.

grace saves. then we are given a new heart , then we get better at being righteous people. that is sanctification.

grace and sanctification are NOT the same thing.

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

gb9 said:

as do I

Where did I say that? Post number please

Justification and regeneration are similtaneous. How can you be justified without being regenerated? Or regenerated without being jusified? Think about it, and tell me what you think.

Go ahead and try to be sanctified apart from Grace.

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

gb9 said:

So since you read the posts, where did I say anything that disagrees with Titus 3, like you accused me of? Quote and post number.

But you won't produce, because you NEVER do. Just false accusations, ad hominem, and strawman arguments is all you've ever had.

Salvation and justification are not synonomous. Justification is PART of salvation, not the whole. Salvation includes regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and preservation.

corazondeldei · May 13, 2019

Melach said:

If this is true then Jesus was not really saying the truth when He told the church in Sardis that He has found their deeds not complete in the sight of God and that they need to remember what they have heard and received, to obey it and repent? If you consider them as saved for believing what they have heard and received the very moment they believed, why would Jesus require them to obey and repent or else He will come like a thief? If they were saved yet reject Jesus what Jesus told them to do and death overtakes them, will they still remain saved?

There are people on CC who says that their sins in the past, present and future were all forgiven and they therefore do not need to ask forgiveness and repent. Some say that lying to the Holy Spirit is Ok, that blasphemy to the Holy Spirit is no longer unforgivable while some boldly declare that they are sinners who will keep sinning until they die but will still be saved. They say that obedience to God has no bearing in salvation. Aren't these contrary to what you say that they obey because they were saved as they claim?

NIV1984 Isaiah 5:20-21
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

NIV1984 Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

NIV1984 1 Timothy 6:3-5
Love of Money If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

No deceiver would ever teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.

Macabeus · May 13, 2019

gb9 said:

Let me know when you have a post number and quote to support your allegations. I won't hold my breath.

gb9 · May 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

last sentence.

in Titus 3, Paul states that " ....not by works of righteousness we have done, but by His mercy, He saved us,.....

that is a closed statement .

and then , AFTER Paul said this, he said, ..stress these things so that those who have trusted in God my be careful to do good works.

so, there it is, salvation and doing good works, i.e., salvation and sanctification , are separate , as Paul explained in the very letter you quote, which is why you should read the letter , not just a snip of a letter.

here is your proof. I do not care if you hold your breath or not.

dcontroversal · May 13, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

My point is simple. I could say life + breathing is false.
But the second part is part of the first. You cannot have life without breathing. If you do not breath
you die.

So likewise to live we have to perform actions, and these actions consume things, use them up, and they
have to come from somewhere and be owned by someone. How we interact daily with others matters.

It is a reflection of who we are and what we have become.

So my point is simple. Faith in Jesus effects the good we do and the evil we avoid.
Let me put this into perspective. I can claim to be a peaceful man, while carrying the ability to kill
someone within a few seconds by having a gun. So which is true? My claim to be peaceful or the need
I have to kill others, for whatever reason? I can say I trust the Lord, yet rely on worldly things to keep
me safe. If my protections are removed, as Job found, it does not mean we do not trust the Lord, but we
can deceive ourselves.

I have a friend, who likes being an evangelist, and being uncompromising. Unfortunately this leads to
condemning others who do not express things are firmly as he does, though this is the church to which
he belongs. This makes me wonder if sometimes we become too fond of our "status" in our own eyes,
and fail to see love and grace we need to express to others. God bless you.

Again you prove that you have no understanding............try again pal.....faith alone is what saves a man....FAITH plus works for salvation = hell to pay!!

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Not By Works

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