Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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In house group tonight the subject came up, preaching, confronting with the gospel with words
of judgement and forgiveness, or sharing love and getting alongside people.
Some find both difficult, but I say, do as the Spirit leads, just the next step, when it is appropriate.
Jesus knows us perfectly, and just calls us for the next step, not the whole walk.
We are so impatient, and want to run before we can walk, and walk before we can crawl.
10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."
11 The LORD Almighty is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Psalm 46
We have nothing to prove, He is there waiting for us to know it. When we speak we speak of what we
know, not what others want to accept. It is true because we believe it, not because we think it is the
right thing to say. One word spoken in truth at the right time is worth more than any words spoken
because we thought we must but did not know what to say.
People want to meet Jesus, the man who loves and knows the Father, because it is real, not pretend
or failure, or something hypocritical. So we His people need to know this in our lives so we share
what is real and true. Praise God, if you have faith and can wait, you will be like Him and know.
31 But those who wait for the LORD’s help find renewed strength; they rise up as if they had
eagles’ wings, they run without growing weary, they walk without getting tired.
Isaiah 40
of judgement and forgiveness, or sharing love and getting alongside people.
Some find both difficult, but I say, do as the Spirit leads, just the next step, when it is appropriate.
Jesus knows us perfectly, and just calls us for the next step, not the whole walk.
We are so impatient, and want to run before we can walk, and walk before we can crawl.
10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."
11 The LORD Almighty is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Psalm 46
We have nothing to prove, He is there waiting for us to know it. When we speak we speak of what we
know, not what others want to accept. It is true because we believe it, not because we think it is the
right thing to say. One word spoken in truth at the right time is worth more than any words spoken
because we thought we must but did not know what to say.
People want to meet Jesus, the man who loves and knows the Father, because it is real, not pretend
or failure, or something hypocritical. So we His people need to know this in our lives so we share
what is real and true. Praise God, if you have faith and can wait, you will be like Him and know.
31 But those who wait for the LORD’s help find renewed strength; they rise up as if they had
eagles’ wings, they run without growing weary, they walk without getting tired.
Isaiah 40
If it doesnt influence the salvation at all, hey, why not? You're only gonna lose some rewards 
When its all said and done, the modern version of OSAS is predicted in the Bible and is unheard of in Church history, they could not even fathom such an idea.
A Christian named Irenaeus lived during the 2nd century A.D. (130-202). He wrote a book titled, “Against Heresies” in which he called attention to this particular fact. In this work (Book I Chapter 6) he said the following regarding Gnostic teaching:
But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.
Wherefore also it comes to pass, that the “most perfect” among them addict themselves without fear to all those kinds of forbidden deeds of which the Scriptures assure us that “they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
And committing many other abominations and impieties, they run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. SOURCE
Compare this to what you hear from many of the pulpits today. Its like Peter predicted, Paul's writings wrested and twisted. Who would be the one bringing in false security and encouraging people to not repent by telling them they are okay if they believe in Jesus, positionally righteous while getting drunk regularly? Look at the fruits of easy believism that we have today, cant tell the difference between professing christians and the world.
Not in here for a debate, truth has already set me free. Once the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed. Just here to post my view, as many from the opposing side have also. -> I got no problem with any OSAS-believers, if they are in the faith, they are my brothers and sisters, no matter what theology they believe. <-
When its all said and done, the modern version of OSAS is predicted in the Bible and is unheard of in Church history, they could not even fathom such an idea.
A Christian named Irenaeus lived during the 2nd century A.D. (130-202). He wrote a book titled, “Against Heresies” in which he called attention to this particular fact. In this work (Book I Chapter 6) he said the following regarding Gnostic teaching:
But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.
Wherefore also it comes to pass, that the “most perfect” among them addict themselves without fear to all those kinds of forbidden deeds of which the Scriptures assure us that “they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
And committing many other abominations and impieties, they run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. SOURCE
Compare this to what you hear from many of the pulpits today. Its like Peter predicted, Paul's writings wrested and twisted. Who would be the one bringing in false security and encouraging people to not repent by telling them they are okay if they believe in Jesus, positionally righteous while getting drunk regularly? Look at the fruits of easy believism that we have today, cant tell the difference between professing christians and the world.
Not in here for a debate, truth has already set me free. Once the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed. Just here to post my view, as many from the opposing side have also. -> I got no problem with any OSAS-believers, if they are in the faith, they are my brothers and sisters, no matter what theology they believe. <-
You don't get it. Seriously, you don't get it at all. dcontroversal laid out his case succinctly and quite beyond refutation.
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How able are you to see other peoples perspectives?
Saying for you there is a case made beyond refutation does not mean others do not see problems.
And that is why we have forums to explore other perspectives. Often those who think others are blind
or stupid or rebellious, are missing some fundemental differences of approach which would make it
very simple to see why another approach may work for them. For me it is about letting us develop
a big heart to see as others see, and then bring it to the Lord.
Saying for you there is a case made beyond refutation does not mean others do not see problems.
And that is why we have forums to explore other perspectives. Often those who think others are blind
or stupid or rebellious, are missing some fundemental differences of approach which would make it
very simple to see why another approach may work for them. For me it is about letting us develop
a big heart to see as others see, and then bring it to the Lord.
Sanctification is evidence of salvation, but this evidence might not be apparent in infants of babes in Christ
And we should not be too quick to point out lack of visible evidence of sanctification as evidence of not being saved
And this seems like why it is so easy to confuse sanctification as the same as salvation even if they are different
And we should not be too quick to point out lack of visible evidence of sanctification as evidence of not being saved
And this seems like why it is so easy to confuse sanctification as the same as salvation even if they are different
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I have found it is the believer themselves who wants more evidence and gets disappointed things have not changed
as they hoped that is the real battle. Getting alongside them, encouraging and showing love changes people,
helping them see the vast steps they have taken, and how one step at a time will take them in the end to where
they need to be. God bless you
as they hoped that is the real battle. Getting alongside them, encouraging and showing love changes people,
helping them see the vast steps they have taken, and how one step at a time will take them in the end to where
they need to be. God bless you
It's not about evidentially judging whether others are saved or not. Only they and God know if they are saved. But 1 John is a book that gives us a list of things by which we can know about our own salvation. By this we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments, by this we know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren, etc. This is what we are taking about, or at least what I am talking about.
You know....God said that when he sees the blood he will pass over you........BLOOD stains.....and even after it has been BLEACHED away it and cannot be seen with the naked EYE, LUMINOL will cause it to glow like a neon sign.....HOW much more powerful is the BLOOD of CHRIST that cleanses us?
The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED by faith, we are legally JUSTIFIED, we are sanctified POSITIONALLY, saved, sealed and saturated in the BLOOD of CHRIST having had OUR SINS put to his account and our LIFE is HID WITHIN CHRIST.....
WHEN GOD sees the BLOOD HE WILL PASS OVER US!!!
The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED by faith, we are legally JUSTIFIED, we are sanctified POSITIONALLY, saved, sealed and saturated in the BLOOD of CHRIST having had OUR SINS put to his account and our LIFE is HID WITHIN CHRIST.....
WHEN GOD sees the BLOOD HE WILL PASS OVER US!!!
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https://www.ccel.org/ccel/palgrave/sacredsong.h008.html
Here is the spring where waters flow,
To quench our heat of sin;
Here is the tree where truth doth grow
To lead our lives therein;
Here is the judge that stints43 the strife
When men's devises fail:
Here is the bread that feeds the life
Which death cannot assail.
The tidings of salvation dear
Comes to our ears from hence;
The fortress of our faith is here;
The shield of our defence.
Then be not like the hog that hath
A pearl at his desire,
13
And takes more pleasure in the trough
And wallowing in the mire.
Read not this book in any case
But with a single eye:
Read not, but first desire GOD's grace,
To understand thereby.
Pray still in faith with this respect
To fructify therein;
That knowledge may bring this effect,
To mortify thy sin.
Then happy thou in all thy life,
Whatso to thee befalls;
Yea, doubly happy shalt thou be
When GOD by death thee calls.
^what does all this means, in plain English please
Here is the spring where waters flow,
To quench our heat of sin;
Here is the tree where truth doth grow
To lead our lives therein;
Here is the judge that stints43 the strife
When men's devises fail:
Here is the bread that feeds the life
Which death cannot assail.
The tidings of salvation dear
Comes to our ears from hence;
The fortress of our faith is here;
The shield of our defence.
Then be not like the hog that hath
A pearl at his desire,
13
And takes more pleasure in the trough
And wallowing in the mire.
Read not this book in any case
But with a single eye:
Read not, but first desire GOD's grace,
To understand thereby.
Pray still in faith with this respect
To fructify therein;
That knowledge may bring this effect,
To mortify thy sin.
Then happy thou in all thy life,
Whatso to thee befalls;
Yea, doubly happy shalt thou be
When GOD by death thee calls.
^what does all this means, in plain English please
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It is a beautiful hymn about Jesus from whom flows rivers of living water. It goes on to tell us not to wallow in this world's mire but instead to focus on Him, and then by God's grace happy we shall be until the end.
For anyone who appreciates old English it is wonderful poetry with a depth of meaning.
For anyone who appreciates old English it is wonderful poetry with a depth of meaning.
AMEN! Sanctification is the evidence of HAVING BEEN SAVED BY HIM the moment we first BELIEVED, however Salvation was Guaranteed to be our FREE GIFT before TIME BEGAN, and received the moment we first BELIEVED.
2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given [a Free Gift] to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Acts 17:30 (HCSB)
30 “Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent,
Romans 10:9 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
John 1:12-13 (NIV)
12 Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
13 children not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. [.Born Again.]
That is GOD's Plan for SALVATION, and Sanctification is what we DO AFTER WE ARE SAVED.
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NIV1984 Romans 13:11-14
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Paul said this verse above and these below.
NIV1984 1 Timothy 6:3-5
If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
NIV1984 1 Corinthians 14:36-38
Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
Paul said that you have to understand the present time, that our salvation is NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED.
How would you harmonize your claim with what Paul and the scriptures are saying?
And another thing, was Jesus lying when He said that " he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."?
If you were saved the very moment you believed but did not stand firm to the end or did not remain in Him, will you be saved according to the Lord?
Is it because mercy triumphs over judgment that Christians disregard and ignore judgment day because there is no more condemnation for those who were saved the very moment they believed?
Do you believe that there will be Christians that will be deceived, fall away and some that would change the grace of God into a license for immorality and receive God's Grace in vain?
NIV1984 1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
I expect an honest and edifying answer from you bro.
Thanks and God bless.
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Paul said this verse above and these below.
NIV1984 1 Timothy 6:3-5
If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
NIV1984 1 Corinthians 14:36-38
Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
Paul said that you have to understand the present time, that our salvation is NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED.
How would you harmonize your claim with what Paul and the scriptures are saying?
And another thing, was Jesus lying when He said that " he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."?
If you were saved the very moment you believed but did not stand firm to the end or did not remain in Him, will you be saved according to the Lord?
Is it because mercy triumphs over judgment that Christians disregard and ignore judgment day because there is no more condemnation for those who were saved the very moment they believed?
Do you believe that there will be Christians that will be deceived, fall away and some that would change the grace of God into a license for immorality and receive God's Grace in vain?
NIV1984 1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
I expect an honest and edifying answer from you bro.
Thanks and God bless.
I believe you may be referring to the words from Matthew 24:13 / Mark 13:13 / Matthew 10:22 (correct me if I'm mistaken about your intention)... Those verses are set in the context of a very specific [future] time period, and Matthew 10 (as a whole) covers two distinct time frames: one at the time Jesus walked the earth, and one of them "[far-]future" just as Matt24:13/Mk13:13 are "[far-]future" (during the future, specific, limited time period of the 7-yr trib, as it is often called [i.e. the 70th Week / "ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"] that leads UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom).
Here's how one writer explains Matthew 10 (and with which I agree):
[quoting]
"Now chapter 10 shows that Jesus, as Lord of the harvest, sends forth labourers and this too with full authority and power given to them. But observe, it is still in special connection with Israel; and the Lord is conscious from the beginning of rejection by Israel. Meanwhile it is a Jewish mission of the twelve Jewish apostles to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I take this quite literally, and not as if it were said of the Church, which is never spoken of as lost sheep; but the sheep of Israel in their desolate condition are most aptly so described. Before the Church is gathered, what we want is a Saviour. We Gentiles were not sheep at all, but dogs, in our Evangelist's point of view. (See Matt. 15) And after we have been brought into the Church, we are not, and cannot be, lost sheep. Whereas these poor of the flock are spoken of as lost sheep of the house of Israel. For up to this time the work was not done by which they could be put in the known position of salvation.
"Again, when our Lord is sending them forth, it is said, "He called unto Him His twelve disciples, and gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness, and all manner of disease" (ver. 1). This was peculiarly their mission. Not a word is said about preaching what we call the gospel, or teaching the whole counsel of God; but they were to go with messianic power against Satan and bodily diseases, as a testimony to Israel. They were to declare the kingdom of heaven. "As ye go," said our Lord, "preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand" (ver. 7). But the great characteristic feature of the mission was the conferring upon them power against demons and diseases. The appropriateness of this, in connection with Israel, is manifest. It was a bright evidence that the true King, Jehovah, was there, who was able Himself not only to cast out devils, but to confer that power upon His servants. Who but the King, the Lord of hosts, could do this? It was a testimony much greater than if the power had been confined to His own person. The ability to impart power to others (which was what Simon Magus, hoping to profit by it, so earnestly coveted) God here shows to be in His own Son. Now the servants were to be sent out, and in due order - twelve of them, in relation to the twelve tribes of the house of Israel. We find afterward the promise that they should "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." There need be no question, therefore, that this was a Jewish mission. When the Church was called, God broke in upon the mere Jewish order by calling an extraordinary apostle, with a special view to the Gentiles - one who was called after Christ had died, and risen, and had taken His place at the right hand of God. Then came in this new work in the calling of the Church, and the apostle Paul became the characteristic minister of the Church, though the twelve had their place too. But at this time the twelve apostles were to be (what Paul was not) the ministers to Israel in testimony of the kingdom of heaven. For, observe, the strictest injunction was given them that they were not to go outside the limits of Israel; not even to visit the Samaritans, nor to enter into the cities of the Gentiles. Their business was solely with the lost sheep of the house of Israel: a positive proof that it means those of the Jews who had a sense of sin, and who were willing to receive the testimony of the true Messiah. With them, their business was exclusively. It is the more remarkable, because in this Gospel we are told that after He had died and was risen, the Lord sent them out to the Gentiles; but then it was on the evident ground that His death had come in. "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." Christ upon the cross becomes the attractive centre for man, as well as the foundation of all the counsels of God. Now in this case we have nothing of the sort. The Lord's death is not even referred to. His rejection is brought out, but nothing is said as to the building of a new structure - the Church. There was the waiting for still further rejection before this could be disclosed, as in Matthew 16.
"But here the Lord Jesus sends forth the twelve, and commands them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass, in your purses; nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat" (vers. 5-10). That is, they were to go just as they were, with the coat they had upon them, with the shoes they had then on their feet. They were not to provide anything, or to lay up any store as a means of support during their mission. This is not a universal rule for the servants of God at all times. It was a peculiar mission, for a special time, and with reference to Israel only. It was not the gospel of God's grace, but of the kingdom. The two go together now; but then it was not so. Israel did not receive the testimony of the kingdom; an entire change comes in, and the kingdom of heaven, in outward establishment, remains in suspension. The calling of God now to the Gentiles comes in as a vast parenthesis between this message to the lost sheep in Israel and its full accomplishment in the last days. Whatever the Lord commands must be accomplished, but nothing is perfectly fulfilled till the Lord takes all in hand Himself."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 10 [source: Bible Hub]
[end quoting]
This is a matter of "correctly apportioning" Scripture, applying it properly, ascertaining WHO and WHAT any given passage is speaking of (to/for/about).
Here's how one writer explains Matthew 10 (and with which I agree):
[quoting]
"Now chapter 10 shows that Jesus, as Lord of the harvest, sends forth labourers and this too with full authority and power given to them. But observe, it is still in special connection with Israel; and the Lord is conscious from the beginning of rejection by Israel. Meanwhile it is a Jewish mission of the twelve Jewish apostles to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I take this quite literally, and not as if it were said of the Church, which is never spoken of as lost sheep; but the sheep of Israel in their desolate condition are most aptly so described. Before the Church is gathered, what we want is a Saviour. We Gentiles were not sheep at all, but dogs, in our Evangelist's point of view. (See Matt. 15) And after we have been brought into the Church, we are not, and cannot be, lost sheep. Whereas these poor of the flock are spoken of as lost sheep of the house of Israel. For up to this time the work was not done by which they could be put in the known position of salvation.
"Again, when our Lord is sending them forth, it is said, "He called unto Him His twelve disciples, and gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness, and all manner of disease" (ver. 1). This was peculiarly their mission. Not a word is said about preaching what we call the gospel, or teaching the whole counsel of God; but they were to go with messianic power against Satan and bodily diseases, as a testimony to Israel. They were to declare the kingdom of heaven. "As ye go," said our Lord, "preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand" (ver. 7). But the great characteristic feature of the mission was the conferring upon them power against demons and diseases. The appropriateness of this, in connection with Israel, is manifest. It was a bright evidence that the true King, Jehovah, was there, who was able Himself not only to cast out devils, but to confer that power upon His servants. Who but the King, the Lord of hosts, could do this? It was a testimony much greater than if the power had been confined to His own person. The ability to impart power to others (which was what Simon Magus, hoping to profit by it, so earnestly coveted) God here shows to be in His own Son. Now the servants were to be sent out, and in due order - twelve of them, in relation to the twelve tribes of the house of Israel. We find afterward the promise that they should "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." There need be no question, therefore, that this was a Jewish mission. When the Church was called, God broke in upon the mere Jewish order by calling an extraordinary apostle, with a special view to the Gentiles - one who was called after Christ had died, and risen, and had taken His place at the right hand of God. Then came in this new work in the calling of the Church, and the apostle Paul became the characteristic minister of the Church, though the twelve had their place too. But at this time the twelve apostles were to be (what Paul was not) the ministers to Israel in testimony of the kingdom of heaven. For, observe, the strictest injunction was given them that they were not to go outside the limits of Israel; not even to visit the Samaritans, nor to enter into the cities of the Gentiles. Their business was solely with the lost sheep of the house of Israel: a positive proof that it means those of the Jews who had a sense of sin, and who were willing to receive the testimony of the true Messiah. With them, their business was exclusively. It is the more remarkable, because in this Gospel we are told that after He had died and was risen, the Lord sent them out to the Gentiles; but then it was on the evident ground that His death had come in. "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." Christ upon the cross becomes the attractive centre for man, as well as the foundation of all the counsels of God. Now in this case we have nothing of the sort. The Lord's death is not even referred to. His rejection is brought out, but nothing is said as to the building of a new structure - the Church. There was the waiting for still further rejection before this could be disclosed, as in Matthew 16.
"But here the Lord Jesus sends forth the twelve, and commands them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass, in your purses; nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat" (vers. 5-10). That is, they were to go just as they were, with the coat they had upon them, with the shoes they had then on their feet. They were not to provide anything, or to lay up any store as a means of support during their mission. This is not a universal rule for the servants of God at all times. It was a peculiar mission, for a special time, and with reference to Israel only. It was not the gospel of God's grace, but of the kingdom. The two go together now; but then it was not so. Israel did not receive the testimony of the kingdom; an entire change comes in, and the kingdom of heaven, in outward establishment, remains in suspension. The calling of God now to the Gentiles comes in as a vast parenthesis between this message to the lost sheep in Israel and its full accomplishment in the last days. Whatever the Lord commands must be accomplished, but nothing is perfectly fulfilled till the Lord takes all in hand Himself."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 10 [source: Bible Hub]
[end quoting]
This is a matter of "correctly apportioning" Scripture, applying it properly, ascertaining WHO and WHAT any given passage is speaking of (to/for/about).
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/one-step-at-a-time-even-baby-steps.184906/
A more sound minded version of the "not by works" thread
All is welcome here in the thread that I made, come check it out
A more sound minded version of the "not by works" thread
All is welcome here in the thread that I made, come check it out
First of all, you need to be aware that you asked too many questions at once. YOU YOURSELF by doing so, LIMIT MY amount of space for each question, so I will have to abbreviate my responses, AND most People HATE LONG POSTS. Limit your questions to 2.
Now here is proof that you JUST COMMITTED the most common ERROR in theology, you are putting GOD in a box called TIME. Once the Process of SALVATION has BEGAN, it is a DONE DEAL as far as GOD IS CONCERNED. HE DOES NOT fit in a BOX called TIME, HE is the Creator of Time as we know it. He is Not a created being traveling though TIME. HE EXISTS OUTSIDE OF TIME ITSELF.
2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given [a Free Gift] to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
EXPLAIN THE PAST TENSE VERBIAGE WITH YOUR FLAWED THEORY. There are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the BIBLE, therefore every time you think you HAVE found an contradicting error; it is you who has made the error in interpretation.
I can prove this truth about GOD considering it a DONE DEAL once HIS WILL has began.
Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
DONE DEAL !
There are SIMILAR Errors in the rest of your THEORIES.
You think Salvation and Sanctification are the same thing. THEY ARE NOT.
Salvation is of the Human Spirit, and that Happens in an instant, the moment we first BELIEVE.
You doubt that SALVATION is at the point of SAVING FAITH, that only involves the Human Spirit?
John 3:6 (YLT)
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Now we have to have our BODY to literally Catch Up with our Born Again Spirit. And it will take lots of Practice, like Paul said:
Philippians 3:12-14 (HCSB)
12 Not that I have already reached ⌊the goal⌋ or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
14 I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
That is NOT describing SALVATION that is a FREE GIFT, that I describing SANCTIFICATION, and the PRIZE we can win, such as CROWNS.
That is a PROCESS that we call SANCTIFICATION. Where we LEARN to WALK LIKE JESUS, and that will TAKE A COMPLETE LIFE TIME, and will end at the RESURRECTION.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (YLT)
42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; {.THAT is the end of Sanctification.}
43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
Standing Firm till the End, is answered in this verse:
Romans 14:4 (ESV)
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
So, salvation, can be considered in two parts, the Salvation of the Spirit which SAVES US, and insures that Salvation (Sanctification) of the BODY WILL TAKE PLACE, a DONE DEAL, as I pointed out above. However, it is a Done Deal as far as the LORD is concerned at our receiving HIM as LORD.
We are saved without a DOUBT as a FREE GIFT of GOD, and that will insure that SANCTIFICATION WILL TAKE PLACE.
So Salvation of our Spirits takes place, at the beginning of REAL Faith, giving us the Holy Spirit, His pouring into our hearts GOD's LOVE.
Which will PRODUCE after we are SAVED, Our LOVING OBEDIENCE, which is the Process of Sanctification.
You said, How would you harmonize your claim with what Paul and the scriptures are saying?
You cannot harmonize Paul's Past Tense Verbiage in 2 Timothy 1:9 with your theory, but with my understanding, that which GOD PLANS, IS a DONE DEAL, and it makes perfect sense. So why do you want to ROB GOD of the GLORY for the finished work of Sanctification, when all the Glory BELONGS TO HIM?
Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.
SAVED CHRISTIANS are THOSE who have been BORN AGAIN, and you are counting so-called Christians that have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN. There are far fewer that ENTER THE NARROW GATE, than false Christians, who are the only ones on the WIDE ROAD, in my opinion. ALL on the wide road think they are Christians, but NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, which is the Starting Point. NO, NONE of the so-called CHRISTIANS on wide, easy road, in the Parable of the GATES, are true Christians, and will end up in Hell.
1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Do you see it NOW? Only TRUE CHRISTIANS remain TRUE to PRODUCE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
Matthew 13:3-9 (HCSB)
3 Then He told them many things in parables, saying: “Consider the sower who went out to sow.
4 As he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Others fell on rocky ground, where there wasn’t much soil, and they sprang up quickly since the soil wasn’t deep.
6 But when the sun came up they were scorched, and since they had no root, they withered.
7 Others fell among thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them.
8 Still others fell on good ground and produced a crop: some 100, some 60, and some 30 times ⌊what was sown⌋.
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!”
Fell on the PATH = UNBELIEVERS.
Fell on Rocky Ground = PHONY CHRISTIANS THAT NEVER PRODUCE FRUIT.
Fell Among Thorns = PHONY CHRISTIANS THAT NEVER PRODUCE FRUIT.
GOOD SOIL = TRUE Christians = THOSE WHO ALWAYS PRODUCE FRUIT.
You are always counting the MANY that NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN, that are BAD SOIL - Fell on Rocky Ground or Fell Among Thorns.
I used to be a farm boy, and this PARABLE MAKES ALL KINDS OF SENSE TO ME. You sow seed on BAD SOIL, it will NEVER produce a crop.
One more example:
Matthew 7:16-23 (HCSB)
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
"I NEVER KNEW YOU!" Is a referrence to BORN AGAIN, hence it is the STARTING POINT.
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VCO said:
"You said, How would you harmonize your claim with what Paul and the scriptures are saying?
You cannot harmonize Paul's Past Tense Verbiage in 2 Timothy 1:9 with your theory, but with my understanding, that which GOD PLANS, IS a DONE DEAL, and it makes perfect sense. So why do you want to ROB GOD of the GLORY for the finished work of Sanctification, when all the Glory BELONGS TO HIM[/QUOTE]
Sorry for asking so many questions and thank you for your OSAS viewpoints.
Your "done deal" analogy deprives God of His authority to give a righteous judgment and declare who is saved or not.
Are you exempted from JUDGMENT DAY? Done deal? And who is robbing God of His glory? Where in scripture does it say that obeying God will rob Him of His glory? Jesus even instructed His disciples to teach obedience so how can it be robbing God of His glory? Finished work of what, salvation?
NIV1984 John 5:17
Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”
Does the work of salvation stops in JUSTIFICATION? Did you not receive the Holy Spirit so you can have power to do according to His will and not just to claim to have FAITH?
If it's a done deal the very moment you believed and no more works required to do but just have faith, then who will do God's work of salvation?
NIV1984 John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, BECAUSE I AM GOING TO THE FATHER.
NIV1984 John 16:10
in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
NIV1984 Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
NIV1984 Ephesians 4:11-16
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
NIV1984 Matthew 25:26-30
“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
"You said, How would you harmonize your claim with what Paul and the scriptures are saying?
You cannot harmonize Paul's Past Tense Verbiage in 2 Timothy 1:9 with your theory, but with my understanding, that which GOD PLANS, IS a DONE DEAL, and it makes perfect sense. So why do you want to ROB GOD of the GLORY for the finished work of Sanctification, when all the Glory BELONGS TO HIM[/QUOTE]
Sorry for asking so many questions and thank you for your OSAS viewpoints.
Your "done deal" analogy deprives God of His authority to give a righteous judgment and declare who is saved or not.
Are you exempted from JUDGMENT DAY? Done deal? And who is robbing God of His glory? Where in scripture does it say that obeying God will rob Him of His glory? Jesus even instructed His disciples to teach obedience so how can it be robbing God of His glory? Finished work of what, salvation?
NIV1984 John 5:17
Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”
Does the work of salvation stops in JUSTIFICATION? Did you not receive the Holy Spirit so you can have power to do according to His will and not just to claim to have FAITH?
If it's a done deal the very moment you believed and no more works required to do but just have faith, then who will do God's work of salvation?
NIV1984 John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, BECAUSE I AM GOING TO THE FATHER.
NIV1984 John 16:10
in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
NIV1984 Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
NIV1984 Ephesians 4:11-16
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
NIV1984 Matthew 25:26-30
“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’