Not By Works
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Good, then I trust you do not attempt to use 2Cor13 as speaking of a "lose-your-salvation" doctrine, because this was not the point Paul was conveying.
Now you are referring to Paul in chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians, where he is making the point that he is limiting his freedoms for the sake of the gospel (meaning, for the sake of those HEARING him); in view of that, examine closely his words in vv.1-8, but then what it goes on to say in vv.19-23 (and also what it says about "obtain" and "incorruptible crown"--and note where he had called BELIEVERS THEMSELVES to whom HE HAD GIVEN THE GOSPEL MSG, "HIS CROWNS" in both Phil4:1 and 1Th2:19!), I gave a post on that a bit ago...
I believe we are "KEPT by the POWER of GOD"
I'll come back to this later (ppl rarely read long posts, and I do try to keep mine "trim"
)
I'm not worried in the least, about such a thing. I realize God's word declares otherwise (on that subject).
I do hate to see God's word mangled and wrenched from contexts and so forth, however.
Back a bit later... hope the thread doesn't run on too fast ahead of me. LOL
Now you are referring to Paul in chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians, where he is making the point that he is limiting his freedoms for the sake of the gospel (meaning, for the sake of those HEARING him); in view of that, examine closely his words in vv.1-8, but then what it goes on to say in vv.19-23 (and also what it says about "obtain" and "incorruptible crown"--and note where he had called BELIEVERS THEMSELVES to whom HE HAD GIVEN THE GOSPEL MSG, "HIS CROWNS" in both Phil4:1 and 1Th2:19!), I gave a post on that a bit ago...
I believe we are "KEPT by the POWER of GOD"
I'll come back to this later (ppl rarely read long posts, and I do try to keep mine "trim"
)I'm not worried in the least, about such a thing. I realize God's word declares otherwise (on that subject).
I do hate to see God's word mangled and wrenched from contexts and so forth, however.
Back a bit later... hope the thread doesn't run on too fast ahead of me. LOL
So you're without sin?
So you could judge my sins?
Is that what you're saying?
If I sin, does that give YOU the right to sin?
Are you comforted by it?
CC knows it's policies,,,it's not up to you or anyone else here to know them.
Also, have you ever heard of deflection?
Better to talk nonsense than to address actual scripture...
which everyone here, except @mailmandan refuses to do.
You should ask yourself why.....
YOU address more scripture here than the big know-it-alls.
You should ask yourself why...
Instead of worrying about whether or not I belong on this forum.
So you could judge my sins?
Is that what you're saying?
If I sin, does that give YOU the right to sin?
Are you comforted by it?
CC knows it's policies,,,it's not up to you or anyone else here to know them.
Also, have you ever heard of deflection?
Better to talk nonsense than to address actual scripture...
which everyone here, except @mailmandan refuses to do.
You should ask yourself why.....
YOU address more scripture here than the big know-it-alls.
You should ask yourself why...
Instead of worrying about whether or not I belong on this forum.
WHAT are you talking about?
WHO ganged up on WHO?
As other newcomers here will attest to....
the NEW members that do not agree with the "old" members ARE GANGED UP ON.
and, as I've said before,,,no other site that I know of would allow this.
As far as I'm concerned, YOU and others owe me an apology for the disgraceful way we are treated here.
(not by all)
WHO ganged up on WHO?
As other newcomers here will attest to....
the NEW members that do not agree with the "old" members ARE GANGED UP ON.
and, as I've said before,,,no other site that I know of would allow this.
As far as I'm concerned, YOU and others owe me an apology for the disgraceful way we are treated here.
(not by all)
[catching up, and it's hit and miss... my apologies, I am too slow ]
As for the Acts 5 context:
[quoting]
[From Acts 5:32] - "obeying [G3980 - peitharchousin ]" -
[4x] "3980 peitharxéō (from 3982 /peíthō, " persuade" and 746/arxē, "what comes first") – properly, persuaded of what must come first, i.e. what has priority (the higher authority)."
[end quoting; source: Bible Hub]
And a quote from William Kelly, Commentary on Acts 5 (on the above verse) -
"So the blessed Lord defeated Satan, and so the apostles now lay bare the tremendous fact that the Jewish heads and people were as wholly beguiled by Satan, as they themselves were wholly in simple-hearted subjection to God. Once the elect nation had God in the world, as they had the Messiah in hope. Now that they had rejected their Messiah, they were not only without God like the Gentiles but the proved adversaries of God. They were only 'men' like others, and 'obedience must be to God rather than men.'
"This Peter proceeds to demonstrate in a few plain, pointed, irrefragable words. 'The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, Whom ye slew by hanging on a tree: Him God exalted with His right hand as Leader and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins. And we are [His] witnesses of these things, and the Holy Ghost Whom God gave to those that obey Him.' Here the proof is short and unanswerable, the antagonism to the God of Israel in chiefs and people beyond question. The God of their fathers (how unlike them the children!) raised up Jesus Whom ye slew (and with the deepest ignominy too) by hanging on a tree. Here, it is no longer the ambiguous word ἀνέστησεν, but the more determinate ἤγειρεν, not merely raising Him up as a living Messiah on earth, as in Acts 3:22; Act 3:26; Acts 7: (18), 37; Acts 13:33, but waking Him up after death. Nor was resurrection all: for God exalted Him (not 'to' as in Webster and Wilkinson, but) by His right hand (as Peter had preached, Acts 2:33, in fulfilment of the undeniably Messianic Psalm 110.). For in what relation to them did He take His place in heaven? As Leader and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins. The door of grace was still open. God was waiting to be gracious to His people though guilty of the great transgression; and He could afford by that blood to free them even from their guilt in shedding it. Surely Christ will appear in judgment one day. Meanwhile He is announced as Leader and Saviour to give Israel just what they wanted - repentance and remission of sins.
"There was testimony more than adequate - abundant: 'And we are [His] witnesses of these things [or, words], and the Holy Spirit Whom God gave to those that obey Him.' Compare the Lord's own words in John 15:26-27. 'But when the Comforter is come Whom I will send unto you from the Father, the Spirit of truth Which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me, and ye also bear witness, because ye are with Me from the beginning.'
"The Holy Spirit is not only their power of duly remembering the past, but is Himself the Witness of the glory of Christ in heaven. And this blessed Spirit, Who wrought mightily in the apostles and others set high in the assembly, is given of God to those who submit to the authority of the heavenly Leader. Such is the full force of the peculiar word 'obey' (peiqarcevw) employed in verse 32. The distinct personality of the divine Spirit is as carefully guarded here as in ver. 3, though in a different way."
--William Kelly , Commentary on Acts 5, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/acts/5.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
]As for the Acts 5 context:
[quoting]
[From Acts 5:32] - "obeying [G3980 - peitharchousin ]" -
[4x] "3980 peitharxéō (from 3982 /peíthō, " persuade" and 746/arxē, "what comes first") – properly, persuaded of what must come first, i.e. what has priority (the higher authority)."
[end quoting; source: Bible Hub]
And a quote from William Kelly, Commentary on Acts 5 (on the above verse) -
"So the blessed Lord defeated Satan, and so the apostles now lay bare the tremendous fact that the Jewish heads and people were as wholly beguiled by Satan, as they themselves were wholly in simple-hearted subjection to God. Once the elect nation had God in the world, as they had the Messiah in hope. Now that they had rejected their Messiah, they were not only without God like the Gentiles but the proved adversaries of God. They were only 'men' like others, and 'obedience must be to God rather than men.'
"This Peter proceeds to demonstrate in a few plain, pointed, irrefragable words. 'The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, Whom ye slew by hanging on a tree: Him God exalted with His right hand as Leader and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins. And we are [His] witnesses of these things, and the Holy Ghost Whom God gave to those that obey Him.' Here the proof is short and unanswerable, the antagonism to the God of Israel in chiefs and people beyond question. The God of their fathers (how unlike them the children!) raised up Jesus Whom ye slew (and with the deepest ignominy too) by hanging on a tree. Here, it is no longer the ambiguous word ἀνέστησεν, but the more determinate ἤγειρεν, not merely raising Him up as a living Messiah on earth, as in Acts 3:22; Act 3:26; Acts 7: (18), 37; Acts 13:33, but waking Him up after death. Nor was resurrection all: for God exalted Him (not 'to' as in Webster and Wilkinson, but) by His right hand (as Peter had preached, Acts 2:33, in fulfilment of the undeniably Messianic Psalm 110.). For in what relation to them did He take His place in heaven? As Leader and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins. The door of grace was still open. God was waiting to be gracious to His people though guilty of the great transgression; and He could afford by that blood to free them even from their guilt in shedding it. Surely Christ will appear in judgment one day. Meanwhile He is announced as Leader and Saviour to give Israel just what they wanted - repentance and remission of sins.
"There was testimony more than adequate - abundant: 'And we are [His] witnesses of these things [or, words], and the Holy Spirit Whom God gave to those that obey Him.' Compare the Lord's own words in John 15:26-27. 'But when the Comforter is come Whom I will send unto you from the Father, the Spirit of truth Which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me, and ye also bear witness, because ye are with Me from the beginning.'
"The Holy Spirit is not only their power of duly remembering the past, but is Himself the Witness of the glory of Christ in heaven. And this blessed Spirit, Who wrought mightily in the apostles and others set high in the assembly, is given of God to those who submit to the authority of the heavenly Leader. Such is the full force of the peculiar word 'obey' (peiqarcevw) employed in verse 32. The distinct personality of the divine Spirit is as carefully guarded here as in ver. 3, though in a different way."
--William Kelly , Commentary on Acts 5, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/acts/5.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
When I was a judaizer I used this argument too, its a poor argument.
I will quote @mailmandan from the first page of this thread, he said:
So its not by those works, but these works. You see that?
I believe a better explanation WOULD be, the next verse! Which states:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So here is how I see it laid out: MY HUMBLE OPINION:
God has saved us by grace through faith, and its not of ourselves but its a GIFT given by God, and because its a gift we cant boast about it, NOTHING TO BOAST ABOUT, since its not of yourself, we are dead in trespasses and sins until GOD steps in! And now that God has saved us, we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them...
First part: Justification, immediate.
Second part: Sanctification, ongoing until the day we go to be with the Lord, or until the Lord comes back one of these days!
I will quote @mailmandan from the first page of this thread, he said:
So its not by those works, but these works. You see that?
I believe a better explanation WOULD be, the next verse! Which states:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So here is how I see it laid out: MY HUMBLE OPINION:
God has saved us by grace through faith, and its not of ourselves but its a GIFT given by God, and because its a gift we cant boast about it, NOTHING TO BOAST ABOUT, since its not of yourself, we are dead in trespasses and sins until GOD steps in! And now that God has saved us, we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them...
First part: Justification, immediate.
Second part: Sanctification, ongoing until the day we go to be with the Lord, or until the Lord comes back one of these days!
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Revelation 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Revelation 16:21 15“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
Revelation 18:4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“ ‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Revelation 16:21 15“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
Revelation 18:4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“ ‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Good, then I trust you do not attempt to use 2Cor13 as speaking of a "lose-your-salvation" doctrine, because this was not the point Paul was conveying.
What point was Paul conveying?
He most definitely was speaking about testing to see if we are Christian or not:
2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Being in the faith means being a Christian.
We are to examine ourselves to see IF we are in the faith which means to see IF we are Christian.
IF Christ is IN US we are Christian,,,if not, we are not.
If we ARE Chrisitan then it must be noticeable somehow....Paul was speaking prior to this about sinning that was going on in the church and that he was warning them about these sins. Why did Paul ever warn anyone about sinning? Because it could lead to becoming lost.
You didn't reply to Colossiand 1:22-23 so I'll post it again in reference to the above.
I answer to YOUR verses,,,,if you don't answer to mine, it just becomes a game of back and forth posting of verse....this is of no value.
verse 6 states that Paul has stood the test and HE belongs to the Lord.
WE ourselves....the Apostolic authority... otherwise, he'd be contradicting himself.
Now you are referring to Paul in chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians, where he is making the point that he is limiting his freedoms for the sake of the gospel (meaning, for the sake of those HEARING him); in view of that, examine closely his words in vv.1-8, but then what it goes on to say in vv.19-23 (and also what it says about "obtain" and "incorruptible crown"--and note where he had called BELIEVERS THEMSELVES to whom HE HAD GIVEN THE GOSPEL MSG, "HIS CROWNS" in both Phil4:1 and 1Th2:19!), I gave a post on that a bit ago...
1 Corinthians 9:1-8
1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3My defense to those who examine me is this:
4Do we not have a right to eat and drink?
5Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
6Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?
7Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
You're going on to other scripture....could you please post it....
Otherwise this will take forever.
Perhaps I've been well-trained in posting scripture...I don't know, but it seems like no one else does what I do. You'd have to post vs. 19-23 and Philippians and Thessalonians....
I'd appreciate it and would be happy to discuss this with you.
I believe we are "KEPT by the POWER of GOD"
This is language...we are kept by our paraclete,,,the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to be our helper after He Himself ascended. John 16:7
I hope you believe we still retain the choice as to whether or not we want to obey Him...
if so,,, I can live with your understanding.
I'll come back to this later (ppl rarely read long posts, and I do try to keep mine "trim" )
I don't mind reading long posts.
I'm here to discuss, not to argue as some like to do.
I'm not worried in the least, about such a thing. I realize God's word declares otherwise (on that subject).
But that's the point! Why does God have to declare otherwise?
If you found out this moment that OSAS does not exist,,,would you think that we could still be secure in our salvation? And what would it depend on?
I do hate to see God's word mangled and wrenched from contexts and so forth, however.
Back a bit later... hope the thread doesn't run on too fast ahead of me. LOL
I hate to see God's word mangled too.
So let's unmangle it.
Please post those scriptures up above and show how they DO NOT concern becoming lost.
What point was Paul conveying?
He most definitely was speaking about testing to see if we are Christian or not:
2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Being in the faith means being a Christian.
We are to examine ourselves to see IF we are in the faith which means to see IF we are Christian.
IF Christ is IN US we are Christian,,,if not, we are not.
If we ARE Chrisitan then it must be noticeable somehow....Paul was speaking prior to this about sinning that was going on in the church and that he was warning them about these sins. Why did Paul ever warn anyone about sinning? Because it could lead to becoming lost.
You didn't reply to Colossiand 1:22-23 so I'll post it again in reference to the above.
I answer to YOUR verses,,,,if you don't answer to mine, it just becomes a game of back and forth posting of verse....this is of no value.
verse 6 states that Paul has stood the test and HE belongs to the Lord.
WE ourselves....the Apostolic authority... otherwise, he'd be contradicting himself.
Now you are referring to Paul in chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians, where he is making the point that he is limiting his freedoms for the sake of the gospel (meaning, for the sake of those HEARING him); in view of that, examine closely his words in vv.1-8, but then what it goes on to say in vv.19-23 (and also what it says about "obtain" and "incorruptible crown"--and note where he had called BELIEVERS THEMSELVES to whom HE HAD GIVEN THE GOSPEL MSG, "HIS CROWNS" in both Phil4:1 and 1Th2:19!), I gave a post on that a bit ago...
1 Corinthians 9:1-8
1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3My defense to those who examine me is this:
4Do we not have a right to eat and drink?
5Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
6Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?
7Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
You're going on to other scripture....could you please post it....
Otherwise this will take forever.
Perhaps I've been well-trained in posting scripture...I don't know, but it seems like no one else does what I do. You'd have to post vs. 19-23 and Philippians and Thessalonians....
I'd appreciate it and would be happy to discuss this with you.
I believe we are "KEPT by the POWER of GOD"
This is language...we are kept by our paraclete,,,the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to be our helper after He Himself ascended. John 16:7
I hope you believe we still retain the choice as to whether or not we want to obey Him...
if so,,, I can live with your understanding.
I'll come back to this later (ppl rarely read long posts, and I do try to keep mine "trim"
)I don't mind reading long posts.
I'm here to discuss, not to argue as some like to do.
I'm not worried in the least, about such a thing. I realize God's word declares otherwise (on that subject).
But that's the point! Why does God have to declare otherwise?
If you found out this moment that OSAS does not exist,,,would you think that we could still be secure in our salvation? And what would it depend on?
I do hate to see God's word mangled and wrenched from contexts and so forth, however.
Back a bit later... hope the thread doesn't run on too fast ahead of me. LOL
I hate to see God's word mangled too.
So let's unmangle it.
Please post those scriptures up above and show how they DO NOT concern becoming lost.
Paul is speaking about the works of the law, which are the purification works.
In Ephesians it is about doing good after being saved, which does NOT nullify the fact that we have to do something with our faith when we want to get saved, like REPENT OF OUR SINS.
The boasting no one can do now is what the Jews did with the PURIFICATION WORKS of the law.
Paul does NOT say we can't boast in obeying God!
Paul tell us he boasts in himself and us, and how we can do the same.
In Ephesians it is about doing good after being saved, which does NOT nullify the fact that we have to do something with our faith when we want to get saved, like REPENT OF OUR SINS.
The boasting no one can do now is what the Jews did with the PURIFICATION WORKS of the law.
Paul does NOT say we can't boast in obeying God!
Paul tell us he boasts in himself and us, and how we can do the same.
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