Not By Works

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Nov 22, 2015
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Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

That is what we are working out in regards to our Salvation. All the goodness and prosperity that God procures unto us.

Working for, of course, would be trying to merit this goodness and prosperity that God gives as a gift.
I agree Grandpa. Great scripture in Jeremiah. Thank you for showing it to us.

It is an interesting to study out in the N.T. the term "fear and trembling". It is not what it sometimes appeared to be in the O.T. It seems that Jeremiah was looking forward to the things in the New Covenant but then again God was always good to man.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we see that in the 2 other places where "fear and trembling" was used it referred to the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus healed her.

She experienced the goodness and love of Jesus and she had awe and reverence for the goodness done to her.

The other usage was Paul and he was referring to having no confidence in himself as he was coming tp preach the gospel to the Corinthians.

Fear and trembling = being in awe and reverence of the goodness of God to us and our complete reliance on Him for all things..especially in preaching the gospel.

It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.

1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)

[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
if fran,dcon,ariel,peter all had agreed with what i said i thought the gospel is


and they are going back and forth with eachother


how is it not semantics?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
its not faith+plus works = heaven


its grace+faith=works till heaven

(possible sin temptation exists possible holyness Jesus is powerful)

whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

think this is true faith plus a cpl sins they repent from even after bein saved


and true faith plus true obediance
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I agree Grandpa. Great scripture in Jeremiah. Thank you for showing it to us.

It is an interesting to study out in the N.T. the term "fear and trembling". It is not what it sometimes appeared to be in the O.T. It seems that Jeremiah was looking forward to the things in the New Covenant but then again God was always good to man.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we see that in the 2 other places where "fear and trembling" was used it referred to the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus healed her.

She experienced the goodness and love of Jesus and she had awe and reverence for the goodness done to her.

The other usage was Paul and he was referring to having no confidence in himself as he was coming tp preach the gospel to the Corinthians.

Fear and trembling = being in awe and reverence of the goodness of God to us and our complete reliance on Him for all things..especially in preaching the gospel.

It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.

1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)

[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
Its the only other place I have seen the phrase 'fear and trembling' in the bible.

Interesting that in Jeremiah it means something entirely different than what most people assume it means in Philippians 2:12
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Yes sanctification does involve two concepts, one of which is positional, and is satisfied at the time that one is justified.
Perhaps this could be thought of as the set-apartness that is part of the meaning of sanctification.
There is also the progressive aspect to sanctification (which does involve us as humans participating with God, Fran) where we do strive to become more Christ-like.
The progressive aspect begins the moment we are born again but is never complete in this lifetime.

BTW: cracking series of posts MMD!
That first sentence sounds like Catholic doctrine. They mix up justification and sanctification.
In Prtoestantism there is a CLEAR DIFFERENCE.
As you explained it except for the "positional" idea.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Its the only other place I have seen the phrase 'fear and trembling' in the bible.

Interesting that in Jeremiah it means something entirely different than what most people assume it means in Philippians 2:12
I agree...some church teachings and traditions have used this term in Phil. 2:12 to try to get people to be afraid of God and to make sure you do everything right and makes sure you save yourself or "else".

It paints a bad picture of the Lord's true nature and they always leave out verse 13 "For" it is God who is at work in you .

God supplies both the will and the enablement to do what He desires for us. Jesus has the preeminence in all things as He is the head and it is the head of the body that sends signals for the members to do things. - just like in our natural body. Col.1:18

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 
Apr 30, 2016
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Fran,

We have been over this subject many times in the past and spoken that there is a vast difference between our minds and our hearts in believing . I have also said that we participate with the Holy Spirit as He transforms our minds as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror.

- it just boils down to - you believe Christians lose salvation and others don't believe in that doctrine.

People should just give out the scriptures that they believe and leave it in the hands of the Lord and stop insulting each other and just let things go.

Personally I have more faith that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation then to disbelief what the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 14:16. "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever." I'm sticking with the Lord Jesus Christ on this one.

You have a great weekend! Bless you...:)
You have a great weekend too.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Fran, Dcon isn't saying that we aren't to do good works after we're saved.

He's saying that those works will NOT KEEP US SAVED.

Big difference.
Oh, but they WILL.

Just keep reading Mathew and see what JESUS says and stop worrying about what Dcon says.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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The part where you have the mistaken impression that anyone is against doing good works AFTER salvation.

What is being preach against is working FOR salvation and not relying on Jesus and His finished work on the cross but having faith in your own works....

However, doubt you will listen,
No Ariel.
You're wrong here.

We're not discussing how to GET SAVED.

We're ARE discussing what comes after.

Some here are saying that we're not kept saved by doing good works.

That's what I disagree with.

MMD did a good job of explaining Justification and Sanctification.

Did you read it? You seem to trust him.

ARE WE TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION OR NOT?

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION? or do we only do them because we feel like it out of love for Jesus?

WHICH IS IT??
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Salvation is NOT gained BY works.

Salvation is gained by grace through faith and belief in Jesus. :)

We ARE to do works

But NOT for the purpose of getting saved, staying saved or getting to heaven.
I don't feel like doing good works.
I don't seem to love Jesus enough.

IS THIS OKAY?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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it is not of works. accept it. you mentioned Titus 2: 14, 15 earlier. if you KEEP READING, Titus 3 clearly lays out NOT BY WORKS.
OK gb9.

Here's Titus 3. It says we are JUSTIFIED by grace, Titus 3:7
and please read all the WORKS we're to do.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


Titus 3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Godly Living

3:1
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,

2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.

3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs [a]according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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So a person CANNOT get to God by doing works.

Because works don't save us. There are 2 reasons why we do works.

1. God commands us to.

2. We do them because we love God, and we show His love to others when we do works.
So you're saying GOD DOES command us to do good works?

So we agree?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
arent works we CHOOSE to do dirty rags


doesnt the Holy spirit in us do the actual GOOD works?


maybe this is just a misunderstanding i have
 
Apr 30, 2016
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i hope you'll forgive me for not reading a couple of hundred pages in case you already answered this question...

but necessary for what, exactly?

thanks. :)
Works are necessary if we are to maintain, or keep, our salvation.

Jesus said works are necessary. If HE was wrong, then I cease and desist.
But I believe Jesus said what He meant.

If you've been reading along, I post a lot of scripture.
I'm just getting tired of repeating it over and over...

I'm sure you've read the bible.
What do YOU think?
Did Jesus tell us how we are to behave or not?
Did He tell us we're to do certain works or not?

Did He mean these as COMMANDS or just suggestions?
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

The 7 Churches are the way the Church age will go through the history of the Church age,and we are at the last one where there are many hypocrites,that are worldy,loving material things,and money,and although all the traits of the 7 Churches can be at the end time,the last Church will be a large influence,which the Church before that Jesus did not have anything against them,but they were to hold fast what they have,and the Roman Catholic Church would be in there before that,but is also a trait today.

If you observe many people that claim Christianity,especially the ones that believe God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,they appear worldy,and hypocritical,that like to hold unto their money for personal wants,and material things,believing God blesses with such,.

They do not like that doctrine,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,because of their hypocrisy,and they do not want to believe they are in a wrong position with God,so they say we are not saved by works,and we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,which takes away the responsibility of them having to abstain from those sins they like to do,for if they hold unto sin they believe they are alright.

Quench not the Spirit,but do what God wants you to do.

But it is an easy fix,all they have to do is recognize the truth,quench not the Spirit,and do what God wants them to do,and have works,or their faith is void,and understand they can abstain from sin by the Spirit,for those that do have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,and will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Paul-faith alone,not saved by works,when we initially confess Christ,for we are still in the flesh,and that is all we can do,for our righteousness is as filthy rags.

James-faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after we receive the Spirit,for then we are spiritual,which love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,and to abstain from fleshy pleasures.

For if they quench the Spirit,and do not do what God wants them to do,then faith is void in their life.

Jesus said those that have erred concerning their hypocrisy to repent of it,and then they would be right with Him.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Notice how Jesus is concerned with their works,that they are not right,so to Jesus,works are important,for He said,because of their works they lacked,or were not right,to repent and then they would be right with Him.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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I've already gone over this with you. Works do not save us. Works are not grace. Works are not faith. Works are not belief in Jesus.

It doesn't matter how many good works we do, they DO NOT save us.

Get off the idea that works are necessary for salvation. They're not.

That doesn't mean that we still don't have to do them. We do. We should WANT to do good works, IF we love God.



I don't feel like doing good works.
I don't seem to love Jesus enough.

IS THIS OKAY?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Fran,

God works through us to ENABLE us to WANT to do good works. He's not actually doing them FOR us. :)

Let's say you feel compelled to visit a shut-in person who can't get out and doesn't have any family and is all alone. So you visit with her every day, sometimes bring her a meal, etc. Is that compulsion of YOUR own doing, or is it GOD convicting you to go and do a good work for someone less fortunate?

THAT'S what MMD means by God working through us.
God convicting us and our being His hands and feet is different than
God working THROUGH us.

If someone that I was in tune with and wasn't arguing with me about how works do not keep us sanctified, I'd understand what they meant by "God working through us".

But since I hear so much wrong doctrine here, I have to question what the person really means by this.

Maybe we could use the term "with the help of the Holy Spirit" instead?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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YES.

But the part you don't understand is that our salvation is NOT dependent upon the works that we do..


Works ARE necessary to obey God's command.

Works are NOT necessary to be saved.

BUT WORKS DO NEED TO BE DONE.


So you're saying GOD DOES command us to do good works?

So we agree?
 
Aug 16, 2016
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Only faith in Christ saves, even atheist and those involved in pagan religions do "Good Works". Does God want his people to be idle, no. However that's not what saves them. At the judgement seat of Christ believers will be judged on their works however they are all still saved.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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You drive me bonkers..seriously.. LOL


"With the help of the Holy Spirit" is what is meant by "God working through us"..


God convicting us and our being His hands and feet is different than
God working THROUGH us.

If someone that I was in tune with and wasn't arguing with me about how works do not keep us sanctified, I'd understand what they meant by "God working through us".

But since I hear so much wrong doctrine here, I have to question what the person really means by this.

Maybe we could use the term "with the help of the Holy Spirit" instead?