Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Quote: "When someone’s arguments take the form of personal attacks and name-calling it’s a pretty clear admission that they don’t have anything valid or worthwhile to say."

author unknown

Dcontroversial started the personal attacks by calling me a liar. About a mistake I made in misunderstanding a post and I even apologized for the mistake. Is misunderstanding a person the same as a lie?

In addition, good works are a gift of God is not a fallacy because 2 Peter 3 says that God has GIVEN us all things that pertain to life and godliness. So if you think a person who does no good works is godly, or if you think that a person can be alive and bear no fruit or have no works of faith or labor of love, then my argument is fallacious

But if good works are something that pertain to life and godliness, then we see that they are given by God freely, therefore they are part of the gift packag

Who wants to discuss the bible with someone with an attitude like yours, like I said whats your point.

Your insults are uncalled for and frankly nobody cares.

Dcontroversial started the personal attacks by calling me a liar. In addition, good works are a gift of God is not a fallacy because 2 Peter 3 says that God has GIVEN us all things that pertain to life and godliness. So if you think a person who does no good works is godly, or if you think that a person can be alive and bear no fruit or have no works of faith or labor of love, then my argument is fallacious

But if good works are something that pertain to life and godliness, then we see that they are given by God freely, therefore they are part of the gift package as I said and as you had agreed to before the well was poisoned. I am going to list the attacks that DC and Budman have levied against me that led up to me calling them a mess.

 

[Macabeus]

I thought I heard it all until I heard WORKS are a gift from GOD..........especially when the whole bible points to works being the RESULT of faith and salvation......but hey........I guess there is always a new twist on the word........

SO if works are a result of faith and salvation, and faith and salvation are gifts of God, doesn't that mean that the works are gifts too? Ie results of FREE GRACE. Everything that is a result of free grace should be considered a gift from God. Also, God gave us everything that pertains to life and godliness.

 

[Macabeus]

Is salvation a gift or not?

UMMM....yeah. The question misses my point entirely. I AM SAYING THAT SALVATION AND EVERYTHING THAT ACCOMPANIES IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD.

 

[Macabeus]

UMMM....yeah. The question misses my point entirely. I AM SAYING THAT SALVATION AND EVERYTHING THAT ACCOMPANIES IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD THiS IS NOT A TERRIBLY COMPLICATED CONCEPT when you understand that everything good we have we have received from HIM. I'm sorry you guys don't know that, and I won't waste my time here anymore.

one more thing, DC. Misunderstanding a post is not lying, and I apologized many posts ago for the mistake and you chose to continue to call me a liar and a deceiver despite that fact.

Truthtalk, if you read these guys posts, you will see why I said they are a mess. How can you possibly ask someone "is salvation a gift or not" when I have repeatedly said that my position is that salvation and everything that comes from it is a gift of God, that every good thing is a gift from God, that we have nothing that we did not receive freely from Him, that receiving apostleship as Paul did by grace is the same as being gifted with apostleship.

You have to be trolling to ask is salvation a gift or not after a person says SALVATION AND EVERYTHING THAT FLOWS FROM IT are gifts of grace.

 

[blue_ladybug]

SO if works are a result of faith and salvation, and faith and salvation are gifts of God, doesn't that mean that the works are gifts too? Ie results of FREE GRACE. Everything that is a result of free grace should be considered a gift from God. Also, God gave us everything that pertains to life and godliness.

Salvation is a gift that God gives us, ONLY if we have faith and believe in Him and accept His grace. Good works are a by-product of salvation. Works are not done to gain a reward for our salvation.

 

[Macabeus]

Salvation is a gift that God gives us, ONLY if we have faith and believe in Him and accept His grace. Good works are a by-product of salvation. Works are not done to gain a reward for our salvation.

How do you get works are done to gain a reward out of "salvation and everything that flows from it are gifts of God, everything we have is a gift of God, and we have nothing that was not freely given to us by God.

So calling something a gift of God is saying it is something we do to earn a reward? That doesn't make sense.

Anyways, sorry you jumped in so late, but I'm going to make everyone happy and just go elsewhere.

 

[blue_ladybug]

How do you get works are done to gain a reward out of "salvation and everything that flows from it are gifts of God, everything we have is a gift of God, and we have nothing that was not freely given to us by God.

So calling something a gift of God is saying it is something we do to earn a reward? That doesn't make sense.

Anyways, sorry you jumped in so late, but I'm going to make everyone happy and just go elsewhere.

That's not at all what I said in my post. Works are NOT done to gain a reward out of our salvation.. We do good works for others even BEFORE we are saved, so works are something we already have, and not gifted with at the point of salvation..

Salvation is not granted to everyone. Only to those who believe in Jesus and accept His grace.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's not at all what I said in my post. Works are NOT done to gain a reward out of our salvation.. We do good works for others even BEFORE we are saved, so works are something we already have, and not gifted with at the point of salvation..

Salvation is not granted to everyone. Only to those who believe in Jesus and accept His grace.

Do not feel bad...he accused me of not knowing that faith was a gift....so I pulled up quotes from me 3 and 4 years ago where I said that faith was a gift....

 

[TruthTalk]

"How do you get works are done to gain a reward out of "salvation" and everything that flows from it are gifts of God, everything we have is a gift of God, and we have nothing that was not freely given to us by God.

So calling something a gift of God is saying it is something we do to earn a reward? That doesn't make sense.

Anyways, sorry you jumped in so late, but I'm going to make everyone happy and just go elsewhere.

Hi Macabeus, no need to go elsewhere unless it is Gods will for your life then its up to you. For me and others here we would like to hear a clear cut answer without all the fluff, like you do or you do not.

You can resolve this issue at hand if you would answer the question in a clear manner like with a yes or no. All of the analogies accepted can you please just give everyone here a straight forward answer. Do works help to keep and/or maintain our eternal salvation.

Do works play a part in our eternal salvation, your statement above appears to say "No" but if you read between the lines you are saying yes works do play a part in our eternal salvation.

 

[Macabeus]

Oh but before I go, I want to exhonerate myself from the liar, deceiver charges. Here is the misunderstanding that I apologized for, and DC KNEW it was a misunderstanding or should have by reading my posts. But he milked my mistake in order to poison the well

When I answered the question by giving scriptures of faith as a gift, you knew I had misunderstood you. You read the post and on the next post I even said " you asked about faith, now you're jumping to works. And you never corrected my misunderstanding, instead you used an honest mistake to poison the well by calling me a liar and deceiver, even though I apologized for the error

And also mailman Dan misunderstood the question too.

 

[Macabeus]

Hi Macabeus, no need to go elsewhere unless it is Gods will for your life then its up to you. For me and others here we would like to hear a clear cut answer without all the fluff, like you do or you do not.

You can resolve this issue at hand if you would answer the question in a clear manner like with a yes or no. All of the analogies accepted can you please just give everyone here a straight forward answer. Do works help to keep and/or maintain our eternal salvation.

Do works play a part in our eternal salvation, your statement above appears to say "No" but if you read between the lines you are saying yes works do play a part in our eternal salvation.

No works do not save us

Yes they are a result of saving faith.

Therefore they are the fruit on the tree. The faith is the tree, the works are the fruit. The whole tree is God's doing, we can claim credit for none of it , therefore it is ALL of Grace, as Spurgeon said

And I see no difference between grace and gifts

But if you want a simpler answer, we are saved before we perform a single good work, even while we are destitute and have nothing but sin.

 

[InChristalone44]

I just praise Jesus for what He’s done for us and that’s the most important thing in this world. Salvation!

 

[Guojing]

No works do not save us

Yes they are a result of saving faith.

Therefore they are the fruit on the tree. The faith is the tree, the works are the fruit. The whole tree is God's doing, we can claim credit for none of it , therefore it is ALL of Grace, as Spurgeon said

One way to reconcile your view, with others, is this: an apple tree would naturally produce apples, not oranges, or grapes, is because the root came from the apple seed. This apple tree need not "work" to bear fruit, it just produce them naturally.

Likewise, a male baby will have no beard when he is born. But because of the "male root", he will naturally grow hair on his chin after a certain age. He does not need to "grit his teeth" and try to grow the hair, neither should the parents scold him for not growing a beard, Just wait and trust the male root in him, that hair will come naturally.

Likewise when it comes to works for Christians, we will naturally bear good works because of the Holy Spirit living in us. We need not judge others so quickly for lack of works, we should not nag others for not doing good works. Let him grow, renew his mind to the grace of God, and he will perform good works without even being conscious that he is doing good works.

Macebeus, hope this helps!

 

[Macabeus]

That's not at all what I said in my post. Works are NOT done to gain a reward out of our salvation.. We do good works for others even BEFORE we are saved, so works are something we already have, and not gifted with at the point of salvation..

Salvation is not granted to everyone. Only to those who believe in Jesus and accept His grace.

When I speak of good works, I mean works that please God. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. But we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. The good works I am talking about are the product of a Spirit led and controlled life. That is why Paul said " I labored more, yet not I, but the grace of God that was in me.

These types of works are the product of faith and salvation. And they are one major purpose for salvation. We are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto God works THAT God ordained. And He gave Himself for us to redeem a special people, zealous of good works.

I explained it before. This is the relationship between faith and works..

A God regenerated us, giving us a new nature that desires to serve Him, love Him and glorify Him with our body and spirit, which are His

B. God meets that desire, (that He gave us) with Divine ability

C. In summary, God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure

Therefore, if God is the one who did all this, it would be absurd to think of works as meritorious. You do not take something freely given to you back to the one who gave it to you to try to purchase something else that He's already given you. That would be an absurd

My argument was not against grace through faith alone, it was against the insane notion that works could ever merit anything. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing, and in Christ we are only giving God what belongs to Him

It's kind of related to stewardship concept

Being a good steward does not save us, but we desire to be good stewards for the Master

 

[Macabeus]

One way to reconcile your view, with others, is this: an apple tree would naturally produce apples, not oranges, or grapes, is because the root came from the apple seed. This apple tree need not "work" to bear fruit, it just produce them naturally.

Likewise, a male baby will have no beard when he is born. But because of the "male root", he will naturally grow hair on his chin after a certain age. He does not need to "grit his teeth" and try to grow the hair, neither should the parents scold him for not growing a beard, Just wait and trust the male root in him, that hair will come naturally.

Likewise when it comes to works for Christians, we will naturally bear good works because of the Holy Spirit living in us. We need not judge others so quickly for lack of works, we should not nag others for not doing good works. Let him grow, renew his mind to the grace of God, and he will perform good works without even being conscious that he is doing good works.

Macebeus, hope this helps!

I don't use this principle on others. Only myself. I am not the Holy Spirit to tell people they're not bearing enough fruit

And I'm not saying these things to harp on people. Only because I hope it will be beneficial

And my point is not "bear more fruit", it is that God gets all the Glory because it is His soil, His seed, His vine, His life, His power, He gives the increase. So how could the things He's doing in and through us NOT BE A GIFT

 

[Macabeus]

I don't use this principle on others. Only myself. I am not the Holy Spirit to tell people they're not bearing enough fruit

And I'm not saying these things to harp on people. Only because I hope it will be beneficial

And my point is not "bear more fruit", it is that God gets all the Glory because it is His soil, His seed, His vine, His life, His power, He gives the increase. So how could the things He's doing in and through us NOT BE A GIFT

Now for a final question. Are we saved or kept saved by works? YES!!! Both are accomplished by the WORKS OF GOD. Ie what HE DOES and IS DOING

Peace out

 

[justpassinthrough]

There is a VERY important word that is in the Luke account of this story. UNTIL

Luke 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man [a]receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost UNTIL he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine[b]just persons who need no repentance.

I agree.

Until is an imporatant word.


Until he is found, the sheep is lost.



Do you understand that the lost need salvation?




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Dcontroversial started the personal attacks by calling me a liar.

He has done that to everyone of us who have presented the truth in this thread.


I pray that he repents.




JPT

 

[Macabeus]

To believe that God is the source of both our salvation and our goodness, (we have no goodness apart from Him) is a higher view of grace then saying God takes credit for salvation and we take credit for good works. The latter proposition is far too high a view of man.

And to even think our works can buy something from God, when He is the husbandman anyways is ludicrous. This has been my point all along. Lots of knee jerk reactions preventing it from being understood

 

[TheLearner]

What does Eph 2:10 have to do with this subject?

Ephesians 2:10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
10 God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do.