Not By Works

[Budman]

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and HUMBLY ACCEPT THE WORD PLANTED IN YOU which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:19‭-‬27

Hush, sinner.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

"Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Okay. Now do what it says - go be as perfect as God.

But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

Do you still sin?

Then you're in deeeeeep trouble.

whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it...

"All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse.." (Galatians 3:10)

Soooo...no thanks. I'd rather not be cursed, thank-you.

 

[Argueless]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[Budman]

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

"If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law" (Galatians 5:18)

"Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the Law: for by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. " (Galatians 2:16)

"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 Timothy 1:9)

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the Law, but under Grace." (Romans 6:14)

"Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith. The Law is not based on faith.." (Galatians 3:11-12)

"I do not set aside the Grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:21)

Clear enough?

 

[gb9]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

no one is saying that obedience has no bearing in salvation.

one obeys because one is saved, not to produce or maintain salvation.

that is because no one, not YOU, not me, is sinless, nor could anyone obey good enough to get into the Kingdom.

 

[lightbearer]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
(2Ti 1:14; 3:1-5 KJV)

 

[Argueless]

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘THESE PEOPLE HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”
Mark 7:6-13

"If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law" (Galatians 5:18)

"Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the Law: for by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. " (Galatians 2:16)

"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 Timothy 1:9)

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the Law, but under Grace." (Romans 6:14)

"Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith. The Law is not based on faith.." (Galatians 3:11-12)

"I do not set aside the Grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:21)

Clear enough?

 

[Argueless]

#79,139 Budman said: Yes, they were saved. The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, but they can never be lost. At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. Even if they walk away later. They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so. Click to expand...

It seems like even lieing to the Holy Spirit is allowed in your OSAS group. Here's what the bible says;

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

You have just exposed the true colors of OSAS believers and I see those who agreed with you.

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.Ephesians 5:6

...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

 

[Argueless]

...WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. Isaiah 5:20-24

 

[Budman]

...WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. Isaiah 5:20-24

You really don't read our posts, do you?

 

[GodsGrace101]

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not obtained or maintained by works.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Yet Clement of Rome said we are not justified by our words? We are justified - "shown to be righteous" by our words and our works because our words and our works reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

Ignatius said "those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct." In Matthew 7:15-16, Jesus said - “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. “You will know them by their fruits. Likewise, Christians will be recognized by their fruit.

Justin Martyr said - "Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions." hmm.. I can see where that statement would tickle the ears of works-salvationists. The value of our actions will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness, yet that still does not mean we are saved by works. Read what Augustine said:

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

I often hear Roman Catholics quote the Church Father in their effort to support their unbiblical teachings, so keep in mind that the ECF were not infallible. I have also heard Roman Catholics say that prior to the Reformation, nobody taught "faith alone," yet to the contrary, we find:

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed."

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

Sorry MMD, I was in a hurry yesterday.
The only comment I'd like to add regarding the above is that, YES, we are saved by faith alone.
Who said anything else?
@dcontroversal keeps repeating that some here don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification...i wonder who that would be?

Justification is totally an act of God...the church always knew this. When Luther came on the scene, the church was so corrupt that who knows what inconsistencies it taught. Indulgences for sale was only one of them. Some places required payment for sins to be forgiven. But it was always known that we are saved by faith and not by works of the law.

Sanctification requires our cooperation. God is not going to make us holy all by Himself. WE also have to WANT to become holy. He won't force His will on us because, happily, He did give us free will.
This is an on-going process. This is why it's important to allow the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and walk with God.


2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 2:21
21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.


Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really don't read our posts, do you?

most of them don’t. They are here to preach. Not be fed

 

[GodsGrace101]

Did I say they were wolves or that they were wrong about everything? You quote the ECF as if they were infallible. The ultimate criterion is the Word of God. Even in apostolic times, errors quickly spread among churches.

All men are fallible,,,even today's men who teach incorrect doctrine. I do trust those closest to Jesus more than those that came 1,500 to 2,000 years later. I have always said that the church took wrong paths and caused much harm after the ECF's....that would include Augustine, which I hope you know by now I don't have too much respect for although he was an intellectual genius.

As to the Word of God....let's be honest and admit that it was the ECF's that put the bible together, the same bible on which we depend for the word of God.

Roman Catholics love to point out that there was a general consensus among the church fathers that water baptism (including infant baptism) was the instrument of regeneration and washing away of sin. That settles the question for Roman Catholics, who are amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the Church Fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Roman Catholics too do not follow the practice of the church fathers in the administration of baptism.

i don't care much for what any church teaches. If you want to know what the early church taught about baptism,,,it's found here:

Chapter VII of the Didache (most probably written in 70 to 90 AD,,,latest findings)

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

source: http://www.thedidache.com/

For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:

"Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten." (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)

During baptism, the candidates had to remove their clothing and stand naked in the water. The newly baptized was not allowed to take a bath for a whole week. Now I don't feel obliged to follow the fathers in their unscriptural inventions, changing the simple ordinance of Christ into a superstition, not to mention their disregard for public decency. (See Tertullian, The Crown; St Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition). These are the same people who insisted on baptismal regeneration.

i've never heard of the above. It sounds preposterous to me.
Could you give the source?

I read an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says "some of the writings attributed to the Church Fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings." I hear Roman Catholics quote the Church Fathers a lot in an effort to support their doctrines. That is a red flag for me. The article went on to say that "most of the copies of copies of copies of the Church Fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe." That would explain a lot! We do not have any original copies of their writings, only copies of copies of copies which were copied and preserved by the Roman Catholic church. - https://xcjournal.org/the-errors-of-catholicism/church-fathers/

God promised to preserve His Word, found in the Bible, but not these early writings of the Church Fathers. We can fully trust in God's infallible Word, but not the fallible writings of men.

Anything can be a forgery.
Do you honestly believe we have the ORIGINALS of the letters that are in the New Testament?
Originals have never been found. This is no reason to throw everything out.
I'm not talking about when the CC controlled literature in Europe --- when people couldn't even read, BTW,

I only mention the ECF's in my references. These are men who were taught by an Apostle or those that came immediately after before the church was infected with political matters (after Constantine).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Maybe they judge what you say?

Your right, It was not you who hung on the cross. So why do you not place your faith on that moment, and not on how well You may or may not be able to be obedient? And base your salvation on that?

Do you not read what I post?
Who said I base anything on what I do?
How do you know I do anything?

The N.T. doesn't depend on what I do or don't do.
It's based on what JESUS said to do or not do.

Stop looking at ME, and start reading what I say the N.T. states.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Do you read the bible? People PAUL personally taught turned and went against the church.. Your theory that they are taught by the apostles so they MUST be true is flawed

Those persons you're speaking of above....those that were taught by Paul that did NOT turn against him...are the same people who put together the New Testament you read.

This is church history.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi Fran, your a smart cookie, so do the smart girl thing and believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ alone for your salvation; we are saved by grace through faith, "Not By Works"

Yes heaven is a wonderful reward for Christians, just think, no more tears; no more death; streets of gold; and we will all sing praises to God and worship and serve Him forever and ever; we cannot possibly know all of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those of us who love Him.

You know that this is the issue here, "Our Soteriology" the Doctrine of Salvation or "how is a person saved." "Are we saved by "grace alone", or by, "grace plus works." When you add your wonderful works to Gods grace for your "Eternal Salvation", (not for rewards), then you have just joined the "Plentiful Group", that dcontroveral mentions frequently, and Jesus will say to you; "I never new you."

When God freely saves us "By Grace Alone", He then puts us on the train "Bound for Glory." What we do while we are that train is our free choosing and when we reach that wonderful place over on heavens shores we will be rewarded accordingly for our labors at the "Bema Seat" or the "judgement seat of Christ."

Fran do not be like a child who plays with her food because she does not like the taste, just "obey" your parents and eat your "carrots and peas", please.....

1Peter1:3-5 "Our heavenly Inheritance"
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4) that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, 5) who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

2Corinthians5:10 - "The Bema Seat of Christ"
10) "For we must all appear before the 'judgment seat of Christ', (Bema seat), so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

Very nice post TT. Thanks for the thoughtfulness.

Here's my soteriology:
God reveals Himself to all men.
Men must individually decide if they wish to reply.
If they do, they are justified and saved.
For as long as they remain with God, they will be saved.

I do believe that salvation can be lost if one loses faith.
Faith saves and loss of faith has the opposite effect.

Even in your verse above, 1 Peter 1:3-5 states that we are protected through FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.....we are saved and WILL BE saved, if we continue in our faith.

I really agree with all you've said. I really don't know what the argument is here...I've said this before. I DO think it's necessary to say that we can forfeit our salvation if we, at some point, no longer desire to dwell with the Holy Spirit. God didn't take away our free will just because we became saved.

I do want to make one comment:
Regarding Jesus saying "I never knew you".
Mathew 7:23

You will find nowhere in Mathew 7 that states it's because the persons were not born again.
It plainly states that it's because they produced bad fruit (verse 19) and because they took the wide path (verse 13) and because they were lawless,,,IOW,,,they did not follow the Law of God (the 10 Commandments, verse 23).

I think this is important because Jesus repeats this often..for instance
Mathew 25:45-46
John 5:28-29

It's safe to say that after our conversion, it IS required that we obey God. I know it's out of love, there is no doubt, but it is required. To give any other idea to anyone is to misrepresent the teachings of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi Fran, for the world I cannot understand why well meaning intelligent people cannot separate our "Position in Christ." with our "Practice in Christ.", its so easy; God's "Atoning Blood Sacrifice", saves us eternally, that being our Justification and imputed "Righteousness of Jesus Christ." Following our eternal salvation is our daily
"Practice in Christ.", which is an on going sanctification.

Jesus said all who believe on Him are not condemned, we are Justified before a Holy God by believing in the "Atoning blood sacrifice", of His dear Son Jesus Christ; and it was just so even in the Garden of Eden whereby Adam and Eve trusted God to forgive their sins by an animal sacrifice.

Like you said Fran which I love, "it was not I who died on the cross" but it was Jesus our savior. So then why can't we all start believing that "Jesus paid our sin debt in full", and we can take "zero" credit for our eternal salvation, "zero"

As we grow in grace and the knowledge of our savior our "faith" being the "root" of our salvation and then following salvation it is God who causes the growth in our life. Works are the products of a truly saved person not the cause. This reminds me a little bit about the Christian book written by Josh McDowell entitled, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" published in 1972. A Christian will produce works through Godly love but it is purely and only "Evidence" of a truly saved life.

So please everyone try if you will to stop mixing your "Position in Christ" with your "Practice in Christ." Saved by grace plus nothing but the "Atoning blood sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ." After salvation Christians will produce beautiful wonderful works that God has prepared from beforehand that we should "walk in them" forever more. These works that are produced from the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts are "Evidence of a Saved life", and that is the, "True Gospel"

Ephesians2:8-10: "Alive in Christ"
8) For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

John3:18: "For God so loved"
He that 'believeth on him is not condemned:' but he that 'believeth not is condemned already,' because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I agree with all you've said.
Josh McDowell was one of the first authors I read after I was saved back in the mid-seventies.

There is one statement you make that I understand but cannot find in the N.T.
This idea of "positional".
Could you list some verses?

I DO believe we are positionally justified, if I understand the term correctly.
However, I don't understand how we could be positionally sanctified if Jesus did indeed leave us with instructions to follow.

IOW, if I don't do anything of what God would want me to do,,,am I still positionally sanctified?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm going to stop for a while...
I have a problem with the time difference...
and will wait for some to reply....

 

[BillG]

I agree with all you've said.
Josh McDowell was one of the first authors I read after I was saved back in the mid-seventies.

There is one statement you make that I understand but cannot find in the N.T.
This idea of "positional".
Could you list some verses?

I DO believe we are positionally justified, if I understand the term correctly.
However, I don't understand how we could be positionally sanctified if Jesus did indeed leave us with instructions to follow.

IOW, if I don't do anything of what God would want me to do,,,am I still positionally sanctified?

If you did not want to do anything for God then one would have to question if one indeed is positionally justified.

There is a difference between being disobedient and having no interest in wanting to obedient at all.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you did not want to do anything for God then one would have to question if one indeed is positionally justified.

There is a difference between being disobedient and having no interest in wanting to obedient at all.

Good point Bill.
I owe you a reply too but I feel like I'm hogging the thread.
Will be back after dinner.

 

[BillG]

Good point Bill.
I owe you a reply too but I feel like I'm hogging the thread.
Will be back after dinner.

Ooh what you cooking?