Not By Works

[Studyman]

Maybe you can define legalism from both sides of the equation you mentioned above.
Those who base the doctrine of faith saves are legalists as you say, yet legalists also have a doctrine that saves which is works.

One has to be wrong.
Which one?

Both sides are obedient, but to what?
How does qualify and quantity obedience and works?

Actually both sides are not obedient to God's Word. That was the issue with the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time. They obeyed some of God's instructions. Even heathens obeyed some of God's instructions.

It wasn't the "LAWFULL" things the Jews practiced that got them in trouble. It was the "iniquity", or "Lawlessless" they practiced that cost them the Kingdom. At least according to His Word.

Mat. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Had they not omitted much of God's instructions and created their own they would have been like Zechariahs.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

They would have known Jesus when He came to them like Zechariahs did, just as the Christ Himself promised.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, (Like Abraham and Zechariahs) he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him (Like He did for Abraham and Zechariahs)

 

[Studyman]

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

Very interesting take on believing. Just how much does one have to "believe" before he is "saved"? Can He just serve God with his lips and call it good? Can he pick and choose what Word's to live by and what Words to reject and still be accepted? Can he believe only some of God's Word and dismiss the parts that don't support some ancient religious tradition?

It seems a man should know the answer to these questions or shall they just "trust" in their own mind.

Good questions

 

[Studyman]

No defense for your building your understanding on a mistranslation ? Your just going right to misrepresentation and name-calling ?

No sir, you will get little discussion on this Bible discussion forum, Rather, a full out defense of religious traditions, many of which transgress God's direct commandment.

Many of these traditions and doctrines taught can not be supported using all the Word's of God. It's only a matter time before they start quoting their famous "Bible Scholars" and start calling you all sorts of names. And if you continue with questioning their religion, they will work to silence you as their fathers did to Stephen. Alas, they only have they ignore button now days but if you continue on this track they will work to shut you down.

On the bright side there are several folks on this forum who actually study and are seeking, not to be accepted by the religious franchises of the land, but to prove and to know what is that good, and perfect "Will of God". So I will encourage you to continue sharing what you have been shown. The Light will expose whether it be wrought of God, or the "other" voice.

Welcome to CC

 

[Studyman]

Pisteuo or faithing is a specific act , based upon a specific belief , sustained by a specific kind of confidence . There is no such thing as just" believing " .

And I might humbly add that "Faith" as defined in the Word of God, is a commandment in the Law, along with justice and Mercy. All 3 specific acts required in the Commandments of God.

Specific acts based upon a specific belief!!

Thank you for that Brother

 

[preacher4truth]

No not like flys . More like sheep from a wolf . Many here know what you are peddling.
Works salvation and don’t buy it. We are saved by faith through Grace .
Oh by the way flys are attracted to what you put forth. Not scattered.
Bill

"flys are attracted to what you put forth."

Yep.

 

[TruthTalk]

Gb9 , the word pisteuo is how Faith is applied to connect with our creator . For us , the most important word in the scriptures . That's why a correct translation is necessary .

There will always be people who have a "New Teaching" to experience God and you are among those who teach a counterfeit christ. It is human nature to want to have our ears tickle just like with your "New Teaching" My bible say's do not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Listen dear believer's their is only "One Way" to connect with our creator and that is through our
Lord Jesus Christ "None comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ.


John14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Ephesians4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

 

[Pisteuo]

Just as I thought. You are confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and the end result is salvation by works.

Ide be willing to bet you don't know what justification or sanctification mean .

 

[gb9]

There will always be people who have a "New Teaching" to experience God and you are among those who teach a counterfeit christ. It is human nature to want to have our ears tickle just like with your "New Teaching" My bible say's do not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Listen dear believer's their is only "One Way" to connect with our creator and that is through our
Lord Jesus Christ "None comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ.


John14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Ephesians4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

and this is what religion does- it promises and offers other ways to get into the Kingdom.

one way. the narrow path. Christ alone.

 

[Pisteuo]

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works, just as you are doing now. I've had numerous conversations with works-salvationists in the past who make the same arguments that you are making and were also very fond of quoting Vine's about surrender and life inspired by such surrender and could not answer my question either as to where the line in the sand is drawn about having sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up?” That is faith + works.

So when the ones defines pisteuo as a " personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ,"
That doesn't require any effort or what you call work . You just think because you say something or Google something it's true . Well , it's not .

 

[Pisteuo]

There will always be people who have a "New Teaching" to experience God and you are among those who teach a counterfeit christ. It is human nature to want to have our ears tickle just like with your "New Teaching" My bible say's do not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Listen dear believer's their is only "One Way" to connect with our creator and that is through our
Lord Jesus Christ "None comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ.


John14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Ephesians4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

We don't need to discover any new truths , we need to rediscover the old truths !.

 

[Studyman]

We don't need to discover any new truths , we need to rediscover the old truths !.

Just like the Christ teaches.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, (That Jesus walked in) where is the good way, (That Jesus walked in) and walk therein, (Requires effort to walk, the Christ doesn't "walk for us) and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

 

[TruthTalk]

No sir, you will get little discussion on this Bible discussion forum, Rather, a full out defense of religious traditions, many of which transgress God's direct commandment.

Many of these traditions and doctrines taught can not be supported using all the Word's of God. It's only a matter time before they start quoting their famous "Bible Scholars" and start calling you all sorts of names. And if you continue with questioning their religion, they will work to silence you as their fathers did to Stephen. Alas, they only have they ignore button now days but if you continue on this track they will work to shut you down.

On the bright side there are several folks on this forum who actually study and are seeking, not to be accepted by the religious franchises of the land, but to prove and to know what is that good, and perfect "Will of God". So I will encourage you to continue sharing what you have been shown. The Light will expose whether it be wrought of God, or the "other" voice.

Welcome to CC

Here is a post by Studyman giving a big welcome to another false teacher named Pisteou. Studyman then calls everyone who disagrees with his false teaching, "many of which transgress God's direct commandment."

There is no other term that fits these two false teachers other than "blind guides"; and anyone who follows their false christ will also fall into the same pit. Quote: Don't mind them: pay no regard to them. - "They are altogether unworthy of notice."

I am going to keep following the bible praise God and "pay no regard", to people who teach a fake gospel.

Matthew15:14
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

God bless!

 

[star]

Hi Star,
No God does nothing half way! But it is not instant either, not some statement I Believe and going right back out and sinning again.God will complete the work He is has begun in us! We have to ask, seek and knock ,over come and grow thru Gods grace and good works we are created for!

We are to "grow in the grace and knowledge" of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yes. As for sinning again, that will happen to any human being walking the face of this earth. If anyone believes they never sin, they are fooling themselves.

 

[TruthTalk]

We don't need to discover any new truths , we need to rediscover the old truths !.

Teaching a "False gospel" is equal to teaching a "False Christ" there is only "One Way" and it is not your way.

John14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[VCO]

Do not have a Guard Dog, how about putting a Donkey in with the Lambs:

 

[Pisteuo]

Here is a post by Studyman giving a big welcome to another false teacher named Pisteou. Studyman then calls everyone who disagrees with his false teaching, "many of which transgress God's direct commandment."

There is no other term that fits these two false teachers other than "blind guides"; and anyone who follows their false christ will also fall into the same pit. Quote: Don't mind them: pay no regard to them. - "They are altogether unworthy of notice."

I am going to keep following the bible praise God and "pay no regard", to people who teach a fake gospel.

Matthew15:14
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

God bless!

Im taking the exact definition of pisteuo out of the Vines and Strong's and presenting my understanding of how it's applied .

Your either saying the Strongs and Vines are false or my application is false . If your saying the Strongs or Viness false , don't bother to reply . But if you agree with the Strongs and Vines , please present a better application . Doing nothing not bring an option .

Strong's : " pisteuo means NOT just to believe ."

Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

 

[TruthTalk]

Im taking the exact definition of pisteuo out of the Vines and Strong's
and presenting my understanding of how it's applied .

Your either saying the Strongs and Vines are false or my application is false . If your saying the Strongs or Viness false , don't bother to reply . But if you agree with the Strongs and Vines , please present a better application . Doing nothing not bring an option .

Strong's : " pisteuo means NOT just to believe ."

Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

Exactly: Quote: "and presenting my understanding of how it's applied."

Read my signature: A wrong interpretation = A wrong Application always

Your application of scripture is wrong and I will leave our conversation at that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

E G
I can see I am going to really enjoy this board !

Welcome. I hope you enjoy this board. Just be ready and open to discuss and you will have no problem. Just also realise some people can appear to come across hard. Bear with them, They may not even be doing it on purpose. Just may be the subject and the way they are saying it. So also be patient.

[quote[No, we do not spend a lifetime trying to perfect our salvation ,but God thru His Holy Spirit in us does. [/quote]

Ok, Lets look at this,If this is true. Then our salvation is secure, Because it is not our responsibility, our power. Or our anything, it is solely dependent on God.

The bible says

1. We are saved O a completed action) when we hear the word, and believe in our heart
2. We are in the process of being saved (A better term woudl be sanctified, an ongoing process which will continue until we die)
3. We will be saved (a better term is glorified. It is when the end result of our salvation has been recieved, ie, eternity.

All of those things, like you said, Are Gods responisbility.

We are saved in a sense at conversion but then we have to grow and overcome our human nature, this world and Satan until we come to the perfect man, unto the measure of Christ.During this process we are being saved, but we still arent there yet, we shall be saved ! We persevere, overcome and endure to the end,until we are resurrected to a Spirit body and are in His Kingdom! Then the salvation process is complete and we are saved! Even Christ came to perfection thru the things He suffered. Not thru our ability but thru God.

Ok lets look at this

1. We had to be saved because Gods standard had not been met, Thus we were condemned becauseall have sinned and FALL SHORT of Gods standard
2. After we are saved, We still fall short of Gods standard. And no matter how hard we try, we will still fall short of that standard. Thus up until the day we die, We will NEVER EARN our salvation. If left apart from Grace, we would still be condemned, because we fall short of Gods standard. (If we say we have no sin we are said to be decieved, and one sin is all it takes to fall short of Gods standard (james, if we brea one comand, we are guilty of all)

So there is no enduring to the end (that was not even written to us, or about eternal salvation, But was written about enduring to the end of tribulation and entering the kingdom age after witnessing first hand the return of Christ in the clouds)

Eph 4vrs 12 - 13 We do not do this thru our works but thru Gods HS in us

If you think you have it made because you are saved now then remember you can lose that salvation and be blotted out of the book of life. No once saved, always saved!

If I can lose my salvation, Then I must work to earn it (ie, work hard not to lose it) thus as I said before. I start in the spirit but must perfect my salvation in the flesh

If you think you can lose it. Then where is your faith? Is it not in your own ability not Gods?

Hebrews10 vrs26-31

What are we judged by?

Revelation 20 vr13, Our Works!

Rev 20 is not us. It is death and hades, We who are saved will not be at that judgment, We have already been RISEN by Christ (we will not be delivered to him)

They will be judged for their works, and found wanting, because all the hard work they did, did not remove one sin. They rejected the one thing which could have saved them.

Our judgment is found in 1 cor. Where our works are tried, And we are rewarded, gold silver precious stone or wood hay and stubble. And what did paul say will happen to those who HAD NOTHING left after the fire?

They will be saved even as through fire

I have eternal life. I am told that, I am also told by John that is the means by which I continue in faith.

Faith means assurance, In things not seen. That is the greek defenition and the biblical defenition

I can see my works, this saying faith is works is not faith at all. Because it is seen.

I can not see Gods work, or the hope of my end which God has promised. That is what My faith is in, God. Not myself.

 

[Studyman]

Here is a post by Studyman giving a big welcome to another false teacher named Pisteou. Studyman then calls everyone who disagrees with his false teaching, "many of which transgress God's direct commandment."

There is no other term that fits these two false teachers other than "blind guides"; and anyone who follows their false christ will also fall into the same pit. Quote: Don't mind them: pay no regard to them. - "They are altogether unworthy of notice."

I am going to keep following the bible praise God and "pay no regard", to people who teach a fake gospel.

Matthew15:14
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

God bless!

Your hatred is as predictable as the sun rising in the morning. As it is written; "there is nothing new under the sun".

It's not my fault that you promote a religion whose traditions transgress God's Commandments any more than it was the Christ's fault that the Mainstream Preachers of His time did the very same thing.

I don't expect you to even consider "Every Word" of God because there has to be a testing ground for those who would deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him. As it is written.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Luke 13:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

You can hate and mock those who "believe in Him" all you like. I would only share with you what the Christ shared with me.

"Come out of her my people, that you share not in her transgressions"

"Depart from Me, I never knew you, you who practice Lawlessness"

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" (Lawlessness) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Calling Him Lord, Lord didn't help those examples the Christ gave us in Matt. 7. How you believe you can just pay lip service to Him, and get a different outcome, is truly a testament of why He warned so many times to "take Heed" we are not deceived.

Some on this forum believe in Him. Praise the Word of God who became Flesh for that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Star,
No God does nothing half way! But it is not instant either, not some statement I Believe and going right back out and sinning again.God will complete the work He is has begun in us! We have to ask, seek and knock ,over come and grow thru Gods grace and good works we are created for!

God said he WILL complete his work.

Will he, or can God fail? It appears you think he can