Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

I'm not to sure I like sword play! I like calm discussions...but we'll see.

I agree that we are not saved by works. Works of righteousness could be taken to mean that we think we could do enough work to please God. This is false; God needs nothing from us - He is wholly sufficient.

How does someone conflate justification with sanctification?
J is an immediate one time happening.
S is on-going for our whole life.
Right?

So if sanctfictnis on-going, doesn't that mean we are to do the good deeds God desires us to our whole life? Ephesians 2:10

Doesn't this mean we DO have to KEEP our salvation?
And how would it be kept except by obeying?

(obedience does not mean we will ALWAYS obey).

Conflating the two is what one does when they save saved by grace but kept by works.....we have been ETERNALLY saved, justified, sealed and sanctified in Christ positionally by grace through faith. We have been born of INCORRUPTABLE seed by the IRREVOCABLE free GIFT of eternal life by the same grace through faith spoken of above...

NOW to the works aspect of the above.....Sanctification is dual is usage in the bible with the first aspect found in Christ above in the bolded above....the second aspect of sanctification is an ongoing process in our daily lives which is subject to successes and or failures depending upon the transformational process found in Romans 12:1-2.......any work/fruit we may produce is subject to this process of transformation. We do it to obtain rewards which is MISTHOS in GREEK and = PAY or WAGES......NOT to KEEP that which has already been ETERNALLY GIVEN in CHRIST.....

WE are KEPT by the power of GOD through faith
We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit of Promise UNTO the day of redemption
We are JUSTIFIED by the FAITH of Christ <--rendered innocent
The RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST is IMPUTED to our account

Note the following

THEREFORE we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED "BEFORE GOD" BY FAITH WITHOUT the DEEDS/WORKS of the law.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And you would be wrong....

OH FOOLISH GALATIANS who has BEWITCHED YOU....HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you now made PERFECT by the flesh.

That right there is exactly what you say....SAVED by faith BUT kept BY works.....it is false

Galatians 3:1-3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

D, please notice that Galatians is being written because Paul learned that some were teaching that circumcision and the observance of the entire mosaic law was necessary for salvation. This, of course, is false.

Paul was just saying what I've been saying and which everyone here agrees with... we are NOT saved by works.
Galatians 2:16 We are saved ONLY by faith in Jesus.

Works would include circumcision, which is nothing, Galatians 6:15, and the observance of the entire mosaic law.

IOW, did the Galatians believe they were saved by the SPIRIT or by the FLESH? They certainly were not saved by the flesh.

I don't understand how you think Galatians has anything to do with what I'm saying.
We are saved by our spirit not by our works. However, Paul does go on to say that we are to do good to all men,,,Galatians 6:10

In every letter of his, he says to continue in our belief and good deeds. Even in Galatians 5:17-21 he states what we are NOT to do...so behavior IS important to our salvation.

If we returned to a life as depicted in Galatians 5:17-21 would one still be saved??

 

[GodsGrace101]

No man keeps their salvation, your teaching is in error.

Neither of the texts teach a loss of personal salvation. In Peter falling from steadfastness is falling from steadfastness, not from being saved. You're reading things into the texts that are not there.

I'm not here to teach anybody anything...I'm just discussing.

What does it mean to you to be cut off?
Romans 11:22 speaks of being cut off.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Galatians 3:1-3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

D, please notice that Galatians is being written because Paul learned that some were teaching that circumcision and the observance of the entire mosaic law was necessary for salvation. This, of course, is false.

Paul was just saying what I've been saying and which everyone here agrees with... we are NOT saved by works.
Galatians 2:16 We are saved ONLY by faith in Jesus.

Works would include circumcision, which is nothing, Galatians 6:15, and the observance of the entire mosaic law.

IOW, did the Galatians believe they were saved by the SPIRIT or by the FLESH? They certainly were not saved by the flesh.

I don't understand how you think Galatians has anything to do with what I'm saying.
We are saved by our spirit not by our works. However, Paul does go on to say that we are to do good to all men,,,Galatians 6:10

In every letter of his, he says to continue in our belief and good deeds. Even in Galatians 5:17-21 he states what we are NOT to do...so behavior IS important to our salvation.

If we returned to a life as depicted in Galatians 5:17-21 would one still be saved??

We are not saved by OUR spirit, we are saved by GOD'S spirit and by our faith THROUGH His grace..

 

[GodsGrace101]

OK, those good works we do, are a by-product of faith and salvation. However, mowing someone's lawn won't save you, neither will serving a meal at a soup kitchen. And neither will shoveling a disabled person's driveway in winter. Good works DO NOT save us. They DO NOT get us into heaven. And they DO NOT KEEP us saved.

I agree that what you state above will not save us...
but AFTER we're saved it is necessary to do these things or it means we don't love Jesus.
I've already posted John 14 a few times. I'm sure you know the verses. Jesus says that if we love Him, we will obey Him.
Mathew 25 is Jesus speaking and saying different things we must do; feed the hungry, welcome the stranger,,,etc. In verse 46 Jesus says that those who DID NOT DO these things will go into eternal punishment.

So,,, they do not save us, but it does seem like they keep us saved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

OK, even BEFORE we are saved, we do good works, like those I mentioned in a previous post. But what you are in error on, is the part in red above, where you say that we're to do good works and that keeps us saved. Our FAITH and God's GRACE keep us saved. Works don't. We cannot earn our salvation by doing good works. Yes, He will take into account our works, but they have no bearing on our salvation.

But the works we do before salvation are of no benefit.

Then you say that works have no bearing on our salvation.
So how do you explain this verse:

John 5:28-29 Jesus said:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deedsto a resurrection of judgment. "

 

[GodsGrace101]

As for not doing good works, what about the ones who cannot talk or think for themselves? The ones who have no comprehension of anything? I'm talking about the severely mentally and physically delayed people, and people who are incapable of any works at all. Will God keep them out of heaven because they haven't done any good works? NOPE.

God will judge us on how faithful and obedient we are, not on how many good works, or lack thereof, we have done.

God is a just God. The above requires no reply...the answer is evident.
Those who cannot, cannot.

Being obedient is the main point...but being obedient will always bring us to do what God wants us to do. If we don't want to call it works, OK, let's think up another word for it. The N.T. speaks a lot about deeds.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We are not saved by OUR spirit, we are saved by GOD'S spirit and by our faith THROUGH His grace..

Amen . Apparently I mis-spoke.

 

[lightbearer]

WOW.. So he isn't a Christian because he didn't invite the mormons in? I don't even bother opening the door. I ask who it is, and then say, "sorry I have my own religion". Does that make ME not a Christian either?

How are they to know Christ if you don’t let them in. Incidentally if A Morman read his post and sees that he called them morons ; What kind of witnesses is that. Do you think they would be willing to listen to anything else he might have to say. Love!

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm not here to teach anybody anything...I'm just discussing.

What does it mean to you to be cut off?
Romans 11:22 speaks of being cut off.

That's disingenuous of you, you cannot exempt yourself from teaching when you're presenting your misinterpretations and misapplications of texts of Scripture.

You're teaching.

You'll be held accountable.

 

[preacher4truth]

How are they to know Christ if you don’t let them in. Incidentally if A Morman read his post and sees that he called them morons ; What kind of witnesses is that. Do you think they would be willing to listen to anything else he might have to say. Love!

Asserting VCO isn't Christian is worse than what he stated about Mormons. Calling one a moron isn't exactly unbiblical.

However, telling another they are absent of the graces of salvation is diabolical on your account. No need to throw "love" around when you haven't exemplified it yourself.

 

[Studyman]

And you would be wrong....

OH FOOLISH GALATIANS who has BEWITCHED YOU....HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you now made PERFECT by the flesh.

That right there is exactly what you say....SAVED by faith BUT kept BY works.....it is false

First, the Jews were still pushing their version of the Levite Priesthood with it's "works" given by God to the Levites "until the Seed should come". This Levitical Priesthood, along with it's sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement, was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham.
Levi wasn't even born yet in Abrahams time. So although Abraham had "God's Laws" and followed them as it is written, he didn't have the Levitical Priesthood to perform "duties, "works" to cleanse his sin. He was justified "apart" for the Law of justification added 430 years later "until the Seed should come".

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the "works of the law", or by the hearing of faith.

These Priesthood "works" for justification of sins were a "shadow" of the Christ's sacrifice. This Priesthood with it's "works" were to lead Israel to the Messiah, the very reason for the sacrificial, ceremonial, "works of the Law" were created and "ADDED" to God's Law in the first place. When the Messiah came, there was no more need for the ceremonies which foreshadowed the Christ's sacrifice,

But the Jews who were "bewitching" the Galatians didn't believe in this Christ. They were still pushing their version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for justification of sins.

"Many" preachers today preach falsely that the "works of the Law" mentioned here were the Spiritual Laws of God like His 10 Commandments, Love thy neighbor as thy self, Passover etc. They use a few words in Galatians as the serpent used a few of God's Words to deceive the woman. (Church, wife, bride) Much in the same way the serpent used some of God's Word through the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time to deceive the Galatians.

They preach Paul is speaking about the entire Law of God when he says;

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Of course if one considers EVERY Word of God we can see this deception. Love God, don't kill, Love you neighbor, it is a deceit to preach that these were not "ADDED" until Moses time, and it is a worse deceit to preach they were only "ADDED" until the Christ should come, and then men don't need them. There are volumes of scriptures which expose this lie, but the best one IMO is this.

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts";

This is done "AFTER" the SEED comes. And what Laws are to be written? The Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins? No. Because they are only "ADDED" until the seed should come. God's Spiritual 10 commandments and laws are written on the hearts of His people. They don't disappear when we find the Christ.

Abraham believed in God enough to trust Him and do as God commanded. But Abraham had sin like all men. So how was His sin cleansed? Did he seek out a Levite Priest of God and have this Priest perform sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement that God gave through Moses to the Levites?

NO!! Abraham was justified of his sins by "FAITH" which was shown by his works of obedience. He wasn't given the Promise because a Levite Priest killed a bullock without blemish and sprinkled it's blood on the alter as the "ADDED" Law prescribed. This law had not yet been given. He was justified by his "belief in God" which was shown by his obedience. And he is our example of Faith.

Eve is the perfect example of those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do as He instructs, while Abraham is the perfect example of a man who trusted in God's Word enough to follow them. This is the Faith of Abraham.

Gal. 3:
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law (of justification), which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, (sins atoned by Levite Priests "Works of the Law") it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

I know you are not capable of hearing this or discussing it, or even acknowledging it. . But for some reading along, check this understanding will the rest of the Bible and see if it isn't truth.

Don't let the Mainstream Preachers of today "Bewitch" you into following fleshy religious doctrines. Stick with the Christ.

"Man shall Live by Every Word which comes from the mouth of God"

 

[Studyman]

No man keeps their salvation, your teaching is in error.

Neither of the texts teach a loss of personal salvation. In Peter falling from steadfastness is falling from steadfastness, not from being saved. You're reading things into the texts that are not there.

The scriptures are there, they don't contradict any of God's Words. They contradict your religion, your traditions and doctrines. But they agree with "EVERY WORD OF GOD" 100%.

It's just that you can't accept them as written because they bring your religious doctrines into question. Much the same way the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time couldn't accept much of God's Word as it exposed their religion for what it was. "Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Many, who come in Christ's Name, don't really believe this, it seems they have been convinced, as was Eve, that they are already immortal. So they have nothing to "fear".

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

So in your religion, being "cut off" doesn't really mean anything, and nothing to "FEAR".

My hope is that you might consider that the Word's of God, all of them, are truth and man's religions are not. But that was a hard pill for the mainstream preachers of Christ's time to swallow, I can't imagine it would be any easier for folks today.

 

[lightbearer]

Asserting VCO isn't Christian is worse than what he stated about Mormons. Calling one a moron isn't exactly unbiblical.

However, telling another they are absent of the graces of salvation is diabolical on your account. No need to throw "love" around when you haven't exemplified it yourself.

You are not a Christian either if you think it is alright to go around calling people names. On top of that to do itto make fun of them who are caught up in iniquity. Seriously?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Conflating the two is what one does when they save saved by grace but kept by works.....we have been ETERNALLY saved, justified, sealed and sanctified in Christ positionally by grace through faith. We have been born of INCORRUPTABLE seed by the IRREVOCABLE free GIFT of eternal life by the same grace through faith spoken of above...

NOW to the works aspect of the above.....Sanctification is dual is usage in the bible with the first aspect found in Christ above in the bolded above....the second aspect of sanctification is an ongoing process in our daily lives which is subject to successes and or failures depending upon the transformational process found in Romans 12:1-2.......any work/fruit we may produce is subject to this process of transformation. We do it to obtain rewards which is MISTHOS in GREEK and = PAY or WAGES......NOT to KEEP that which has already been ETERNALLY GIVEN in CHRIST.....

WE are KEPT by the power of GOD through faith
We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit of Promise UNTO the day of redemption
We are JUSTIFIED by the FAITH of Christ <--rendered innocent
The RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST is IMPUTED to our account

Note the following

THEREFORE we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED "BEFORE GOD" BY FAITH WITHOUT the DEEDS/WORKS of the law.

Nice reply.
We're getting into eternal security here and I don't want to derail.
You believe that we are KEPT (capitalized) by the power of God. This is fine with me...I just don't like those who say we could do anything, live any way we want to and we'd still be saved. This the bible does speak to and is not in agreement. However, if you want to say that we are always kept saved I do believe that is a different idea. We do hear of persons that have left the faith so I do believe we could lose our faith, for whatever reason -- but always by our choice. I choose to stay with the Lord.
Justified ---rendered innocent and the imputation of righteousness is in agreement with my beliefs.
Man is certainly justified by faith.

 

[blue_ladybug]

But the works we do before salvation are of no benefit.

Then you say that works have no bearing on our salvation.
So how do you explain this verse:

John 5:28-29 Jesus said:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deedsto a resurrection of judgment. "

We are all going to be judged on our works. Bad and good. Some people do only evil deeds, while others only do primarily good works. If the evil doers are unrepentant, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. And for those who did good deeds, they will go to heaven. BUT those works don't have any bearing on our salvation, for it is BY FAITH AND GRACE that we are saved. Not by the amount of works we do.

So if you try to earn your way into heaven by doing works primarily to get a ticket there, it won't work.. We are not saved by works.

 

[GodsGrace101]

First, the Jews were still pushing their version of the Levite Priesthood with it's "works" given by God to the Levites "until the Seed should come". This Levitical Priesthood, along with it's sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement, was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham.
Levi wasn't even born yet in Abrahams time. So although Abraham had "God's Laws" and followed them as it is written, he didn't have the Levitical Priesthood to perform "duties, "works" to cleanse his sin. He was justified "apart" for the Law of justification added 430 years later "until the Seed should come".

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the "works of the law", or by the hearing of faith.

These Priesthood "works" for justification of sins were a "shadow" of the Christ's sacrifice. This Priesthood with it's "works" were to lead Israel to the Messiah, the very reason for the sacrificial, ceremonial, "works of the Law" were created and "ADDED" to God's Law in the first place. When the Messiah came, there was no more need for the ceremonies which foreshadowed the Christ's sacrifice,

But the Jews who were "bewitching" the Galatians didn't believe in this Christ. They were still pushing their version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for justification of sins.

"Many" preachers today preach falsely that the "works of the Law" mentioned here were the Spiritual Laws of God like His 10 Commandments, Love thy neighbor as thy self, Passover etc. They use a few words in Galatians as the serpent used a few of God's Words to deceive the woman. (Church, wife, bride) Much in the same way the serpent used some of God's Word through the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time to deceive the Galatians.

They preach Paul is speaking about the entire Law of God when he says;

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Of course if one considers EVERY Word of God we can see this deception. Love God, don't kill, Love you neighbor, it is a deceit to preach that these were not "ADDED" until Moses time, and it is a worse deceit to preach they were only "ADDED" until the Christ should come, and then men don't need them. There are volumes of scriptures which expose this lie, but the best one IMO is this.

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts";

This is done "AFTER" the SEED comes. And what Laws are to be written? The Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins? No. Because they are only "ADDED" until the seed should come. God's Spiritual 10 commandments and laws are written on the hearts of His people. They don't disappear when we find the Christ.

Abraham believed in God enough to trust Him and do as God commanded. But Abraham had sin like all men. So how was His sin cleansed? Did he seek out a Levite Priest of God and have this Priest perform sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement that God gave through Moses to the Levites?

NO!! Abraham was justified of his sins by "FAITH" which was shown by his works of obedience. He wasn't given the Promise because a Levite Priest killed a bullock without blemish and sprinkled it's blood on the alter as the "ADDED" Law prescribed. This law had not yet been given. He was justified by his "belief in God" which was shown by his obedience. And he is our example of Faith.

Eve is the perfect example of those who say Lord, Lord, but don't do as He instructs, while Abraham is the perfect example of a man who trusted in God's Word enough to follow them. This is the Faith of Abraham.

Gal. 3:
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law (of justification), which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, (sins atoned by Levite Priests "Works of the Law") it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

I know you are not capable of hearing this or discussing it, or even acknowledging it. . But for some reading along, check this understanding will the rest of the Bible and see if it isn't truth.

Don't let the Mainstream Preachers of today "Bewitch" you into following fleshy religious doctrines. Stick with the Christ.

"Man shall Live by Every Word which comes from the mouth of God"

Very good and complete reply...all I had meant to say!!

 

[blue_ladybug]

God is a just God. The above requires no reply...the answer is evident.
Those who cannot, cannot.

Being obedient is the main point...but being obedient will always bring us to do what God wants us to do. If we don't want to call it works, OK, let's think up another word for it. The N.T. speaks a lot about deeds.

We are to do good things for one another, not only to show obedience to God, but also to show His love through us for others. We are NOT to do them to gain, maintain, keep salvation or earn our way into heaven.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That's disingenuous of you, you cannot exempt yourself from teaching when you're presenting your misinterpretations and misapplications of texts of Scripture.

You're teaching.

You'll be held accountable.

OK
But so will you!

And I'd like to take this opportunity that I've posted quite a few verses and have received no reply to them except to say that I'm not correct in understanding them when they seem so simple and clear.

Would YOU care to post some verses that say we are not required to do anything after salvation but only have faith and we will still be saved? You know, something as clear as the verses I've quoted stating that works ARE necessary, and some of the verses from Jesus Himself.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We are all going to be judged on our works. Bad and good. Some people do only evil deeds, while others only do primarily good works. If the evil doers are unrepentant, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. And for those who did good deeds, they will go to heaven. BUT those works don't have any bearing on our salvation, for it is BY FAITH AND GRACE that we are saved. Not by the amount of works we do.

So if you try to earn your way into heaven by doing works primarily to get a ticket there, it won't work.. We are not saved by works.

I never said we are saved by works.
Apparently I'm saying something that is not understood. I'm sorry I can't say it any better.

As I asked another poster, could you please post some scripture that clearly states that we are not required to do any works AFTER being saved?

That would be helpful.