Not By Works

Shamah · Aug 6, 2018

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of יהוה and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

mailmandan · Aug 6, 2018

benhur said:

Amen!

Judas Iscariot is a good example of an unsaved person who was a self-attached branch in the vine that was not receiving nourishment from Christ and was taken away and burned.

This is where you fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

Says you. For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off (Psalm 37:28) is not a faulty doctrine. That those who believe the gospel and are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession (Ephesians 1:13-14) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) is also not a faulty doctrine. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

To rightly divide the word of truth is teaching scripture accurately, as a unified whole, without being turned aside by false teaching or man-made agendas. This would include not confusing the old covenant with the new covenant.

mailmandan · Aug 6, 2018

Shamah said:

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of יהוה and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

More salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" Hebrew Roots agenda?

VCO · Aug 6, 2018

benhur said:

That "taken away" is the Non-Born Again Christian, but have you even thought about where they are taken away to?

Here is the proof, they are taken away to Hades/Hell.

Matthew 3:10 (NCV)
10 The ax is now ready to cut down the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. {NOT ALL - You count way to many as BEING saved people.}

Matthew 7:19-20 (NCV)
19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. {In the fires of Hades/Hell.}
20 In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do.

Luke 17:28-29 (TLB)
28 "And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot: people went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—
29 until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Matthew 10:28 (HCSB)
28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather,
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

NOW, do NOT choke on this TRUTH:

Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, {Hades/Hell}
and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
{Only those few who are Born Again.}

The only PURE MOTIVE is because YOU LOVE THE LORD and BRETHREN. ANY OTHER MOTIVE TO DO GOOD WORKS IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS TO GOD.

Romans 8:27-28 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Seohce · Aug 6, 2018

Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

THE RIHTEOUSNEßS OF THE JEWS WAS THROUGH THE LAW.

Deuteronomy 6:24-25 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, THAT WILL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRISTIANS (NEW CREATION/MAN) IS THROUGH FAITH.

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but ISRAEL, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it NOT BY FAITH but as if it were by works. THEY stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

IF YOU ARE A JEW WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW ….IT IS "NOT BY WORKS".(ephesians 2:8-deuteronomy 6:24-25)

WHETHER YOU'RE A GENTILE OR A JEW, IF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH FAITH , YOU ARE;

..God's workmanship created in
Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which He has PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO . ( ephesians 2:10)

“NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAD DONE" REFERS TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE JEWS WHICH WAS THROUGH THE LAW. (titus 3:5, eph 2:8-9)

PAUL’S QUESTION IS:

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

HE ALSO SAID,

Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith NULLIFY God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

GOD PUTS AND WRITES THE LAW IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

...NOT JUST TO THE JEWS WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH BUT ALSO TO THOSE WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE HEART.

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

AND CHRISTIANS ARE ABLE TO FULFILL AND UPHOLD THE LAW IN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS BECAUSE OF THE LOVE THAT WAS POURED INTO THEIR HEARTS.

Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because GOD HAS POURED OUT HIS LOVE INTO OUR HEARTS by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

AND THEREFORE, “LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.”(romans 13:10)

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE; THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your HEART that you BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your MOUTH that you CONFESS and are SAVED.

1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be FULLY MET IN US, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

John 14:15 “IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.”

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18how that they told you THERE SHOULD BE MOCKERS IN THE LAST TIME, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, HAVING NOT THE SPIRIT.

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; but IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work REPROBATE.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, BE SOBER, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 AS OBEDIENT CHILDREN, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 because it is written, BE YR HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY.

OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. (romans 6:16-23)

star · Aug 7, 2018

For God so love this creation of His that he provided a way for redemption for all mankind. John 3:16. It is mankind who takes the Word of God and complicates that Word to the nth degree.

Yes, I believe in that verse as did the guilty thief on the Cross, who btw had no time for baptism nor any of the other rituals to be performed. Yet, Jesus Christ said to him "today you will be with me in paradise."

benhur · Aug 7, 2018

BillG said:

When the scripture describes in John 15:2 "branches IN HIM", I assume these branches are people that have been born again, and have had the baptism of the spirit and the baptism of water. They have faith in Jesus and are IN HIM so they are obeying his commandments. Therefore since the branches are IN HIM, even these branches are subject to losing their salvation if they do not produce fruit.

The act of producing fruit manifests itself in continuing to keep his commandments and all other things he has ask us to do as we follow him, which leads to people seeing people glorifying God and see their happines. This lifestyle, and the power of God, draws them to believe in Jesus too, and from that introduction, they join the church and becoming another branch IN JESUS. The fruits of the spirit lead to more people believing in Jesus and having EL.

So yes, I believe those branches IN HIM, according to this scripture, can lose their eternal life if they do not produce fruit.

BillG · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

So you 'assume?

BTW what do you mean by baptism of the spirit and how does it manifest?
I did ask you this before but you have not responded, maybe you did not see it or I did not see your response.

The only reason I ask is that various denominations interpret it differently.

So what do you mean by the term baptism in the Holy Spirit and is it essential to salvation as you seem to indicate that it is.

BillG · Aug 7, 2018

star said:

I have heard people reject the view that the thief was not baptised but in fact he was.
Based on the following.

Mark 1:4-5
4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

They focus on the start of verse 5 "THEN ALL"

NoNameMcgee · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

ben.... again
youre lacking context

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

one of your mistakes is not seeing there are two sorts of brances here

branches that bare fruit
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"

and branches that do not bare fruit
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"

you are focused on the word "in" when this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

maybe you need to focus more on the whole message
including the word ABIDE

but this has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation to a saved believer

and MUCH to do with two separate types of men in the same congregation

star · Aug 7, 2018

BillG said:

Of course there are those who say that and you know what, that makes my point to the nth degree. No where did Jesus say the "thief" had been baptized, gone to church, followed this or that rule. Because of the "belief" of that thief, Jesus saved him.

benhur · Aug 7, 2018

star said:

As you have seen on this forum, if you are for OSAS there are scriptures that are twisted to make the OSAS position stronger. The same is true for us that do not believe in OSAS. So the complicating of the Word to the nth deptree is a problem from both sides.

The problem to is the Word itself. One scriptures says all you have to do to be saved is believe. Another scripture (Rom. 10:9) says that you have to believe and confess with your tongue in order to be saved. Another scripture (Mark 16:16)says you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved. So you just quoted one of the scriptures John 3:16. What about the other 2?

VCO · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

<><.🕆.><>

Then I am positive, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BORN AGAIN MEANS.

Matthew 7:18-20 (KJV)
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:15-17 (HCSB)
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit,
but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

Galatians 5:19-26 (HCSB)
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery {sorcerers peddled magic potions - Drugs} , hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. {-NOTICE: godly LOVE is the primary FRUIT.}
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV)
22 If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord!

1 John 4:8 (CSBBible)
8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 3:14 (CSBBible)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers and sisters.
The one who does not love remains in death.

There is no doubt in my mind, that you are teaching False Doctrine, from a False Prophet.

benhur · Aug 7, 2018

star said:

We know he was allowed to go to paradise, but is paradise where heaven is. That is debateable? Remember Jesus told the theif that he would be with him in paradise and so they both went there. If paradise is heaven, that is where God himself lives. But after Jesus went to paradise and was then resurrected, he told Mary not to touch him for he had to go to his Father and his God which was in heaven.

If paradise is heaven then Jesus would not have said that to Mary, because he would have already seen his Father and his God in paradise.

Therefore I conclude that paradise is not heaven. After paradise, there will be the resurrection and the judgement and then all those that have done good will go to heaven and EL, and those who have done evil will go to hell.

All kinds of scenerios about the theif on the cross we know nothing of, so we cannot really comment on if he is saved or not.

BillG · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

With Romans 10 I think we need to take into account more than verse 9

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

NoNameMcgee · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

wrong

this strawmans been torn down already

its your false doctrine that says you have to confess with your tongue to be saved through your own twisting of scripture

what scripture actually says here

"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

this way DOES NOT EXCLUDE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT SPEAK

but your false twisting of it does

it says if you believe IN YOUR HEART and confess with your mouth you WILL BE (absolute) saved

which excludes fake believers (heart) and shows fruit (confession of Jesus) in the example itself

this doesnt mean if you cannot confess with your tongue you cant be saved

benhur · Aug 7, 2018

VCO said:

<><.🕆.><>

Then I am positive, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BORN AGAIN MEANS.

Matthew 7:18-20 (KJV)
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:15-17 (HCSB)
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit,
but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

Galatians 5:19-26 (HCSB)
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery {sorcerers peddled magic potions - Drugs} , hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. {-NOTICE: godly LOVE is the primary FRUIT.}
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV)
22 If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord!

1 John 4:8 (CSBBible)
8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 3:14 (CSBBible)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers and sisters.
The one who does not love remains in death.

There is no doubt in my mind, that you are teaching False Doctrine, from a False Prophet.

What false prophet? Are you talking about John the beloved apostles of Jesus Christ? He is the one that recorded John 15:2 from the mouth of Jesus. Are you calling Jesus a false prophet? Careful now.

BillG · Aug 7, 2018

benhur said:

Why not answer the verses quoted from Matthew that VCO posted?

ljs · Aug 7, 2018

ben says

" all those that have done good will go to heaven and EL, and those who have done evil will go to hell. "

no ben , we dont go to heaven and have eternal life based on what WE do
we go to heaven and have eternal life if we put our trust in what Christ has already DONE for us !!

benhur · Aug 7, 2018

VCO said:

You DISREGARD what I tell you THAT I BELIEVE, and then just say: I know that is what you believe.

You are TOTALLY unbelievable.

You Got the 50% right though. That is what the Bible Says are those that are NOT BORN AGAIN when HE appears in the clouds and sends the archangel to call out HIS BRIDE:

Matthew 24:39-42 (TLB)
39 people wouldn’t believe what was going to happen until the flood actually arrived and took them all away. So shall my coming be.
40 "Two men will be working together in the fields, and one will be taken, the other left.
41 Two women will be going about their household tasks; one will be taken, the other left.
42 "So be prepared, for you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:34-36 (TLB)
34 That night two men will be asleep in the same room, and one will be taken away, the other left.
35 Two women will be working together at household tasks; one will be taken, the other left;
36 and so it will be with men working side by side in the fields."

Sorry to disappoint you but I believe in Jesus, and have been baptized of the spirit and have also been baptized with water. So according to your believf system, I am saved and will be caught up in the last days just like you. See you there.

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