Not By Works

[PeterJens]

A simple proposition.

I am careful to read peoples contributions and reflect them back.
When it does not go well, they attack me.

1. To believe Christ saves us through faith in Him, despite our state, forgiving past, present
and future sin, means all our future mistakes will happen but no longer matter.
2. Once sealed we are safe, impossible to loose the kingdom
3. Walking righteously, even in fellowship with Christ, is impossible
4. Our salvation and walk is only perfect because God sees Christ and not us

So here is the rediculous idea. A believer cannot be in unrepentant sin, because all
sin is forgiven, even in the future. So repentance and confession of sin is irrelevant
to forgiveness after coming to faith, just realising you place with Christ in the heavenlies.

Now to me, who says sin defiles us and our walk with God, which we need to repent
of, as and when we stumble, those who sin in the present after coming to faith are
in unrepentant sin. But to them no believer can be, because they have repented for it
all once, and that is now it.

So in real terms, what I am saying is true, but in HG terms, it is not.
But hey, that is the problem of different theologies make the same words mean
different things. It also makes a farce of accusations of bad intention, this is pointing
out life realities rather than people rubber stamping lawlessness.

 

[dcontroversal]

A simple proposition.

I am careful to read peoples contributions and reflect them back.
When it does not go well, they attack me.

1. To believe Christ saves us through faith in Him, despite our state, forgiving past, present
and future sin, means all our future mistakes will happen but no longer matter.
2. Once sealed we are safe, impossible to loose the kingdom
3. Walking righteously, even in fellowship with Christ, is impossible
4. Our salvation and walk is only perfect because God sees Christ and not us

So here is the rediculous idea. A believer cannot be in unrepentant sin, because all
sin is forgiven, even in the future. So repentance and confession of sin is irrelevant
to forgiveness after coming to faith, just realising you place with Christ in the heavenlies.

Now to me, who says sin defiles us and our walk with God, which we need to repent
of, as and when we stumble, those who sin in the present after coming to faith are
in unrepentant sin. But to them no believer can be, because they have repented for it
all once, and that is now it.

So in real terms, what I am saying is true, but in HG terms, it is not.
But hey, that is the problem of different theologies make the same words mean
different things. It also makes a farce of accusations of bad intention, this is pointing
out life realities rather than people rubber stamping lawlessness.

This has nothing to do with salvation being based upon faith void of works...and no one advocates what you propose.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hopefully any talk of sinning should take into consideration that malice, deceit and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is just as much sinning as living a homosexual lifestyle is.

After one day on here one can rightfully conclude that the "workers for" do no sin or hardly ever sin...it is part of their sinless working for salvation pseudo false gospel......

 

[PeterJens]

This has nothing to do with salvation being based upon faith void of works...and no one advocates what you propose.....!

Ok dcontroversal - Using the words no one is not wise because all there needs to be is one
person somewhere and you are wrong.

And my analysis of beliefs is correct, based on HG sources. If you do not know them then
you do not know HG theology.

Every statement I am making is because in past discussions this has been the consensus view
of the group. Now if you want to explain which point I got wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

It will be hard as they are simple points.
1. Future sin forgiven.
2. OSAS.
3. Total inability doctrine.
4. Imputed righteousness makes us saved, and redeemed forever.

This is almost a pure reformed position, with a tweek.
Or maybe you are unaware of what a reformed position actually is.

 

[PeterJens]

It is hard to be sinning and accused of hatred when I am arguing the simple
projection of theological beliefs. But then in their world I have to hate and
be evil or else they are actually wrong and lost, which ofcourse would be like
spiritual suicide.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Huh?? My post wasn't even in reply to you. I was replying to PeterJens..

With all due respect, grammatically through, via, by, because of, by means of and many more may be used interchageablly according to the context given withing the sentence.. No matter, if we understand what another is dsayng, especially in this informal venue, then correction of such things is not really necessary or helpful. I have done by faith in my sojourn here in this strange lad, and through faith I have gained all that is truly important. God bles syou always.

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok dcontroversal - Using the words no one is not wise because all there needs to be is one
person somewhere and you are wrong.

And my analysis of beliefs is correct, based on HG sources. If you do not know them then
you do not know HG theology.

Every statement I am making is because in past discussions this has been the consensus view
of the group. Now if you want to explain which point I got wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

It will be hard as they are simple points.
1. Future sin forgiven.
2. OSAS.
3. Total inability doctrine.
4. Imputed righteousness makes us saved, and redeemed forever.

This is almost a pure reformed position, with a tweek.
Or maybe you are unaware of what a reformed position actually is.

HG is your fantasy land....the bible drips with grace from front to back...you should wake up to it instead of your own self righteous working for false salvation

a) Did Christ die for sin or not, where sin abounds grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND
b) Your god must be weak....My GOD saves eternally not temporarily...must be tragic to serve a god that takes your salvation away...so...how many time have you been saved?
c) The righteousness of God is imputed to the believer....scripture teaches this...No wonder you believe you must keep yourself saved....!

 

[dcontroversal]

It is hard to be sinning and accused of hatred when I am arguing the simple
projection of theological beliefs. But then in their world I have to hate and
be evil or else they are actually wrong and lost, which ofcourse would be like
spiritual suicide.

You know...the more you post the more you prove that you are missing something.....HATE AND BE EVIL...dude...serious......!

 

[Seohce]

New International Version 1984 1 Corinthians 13:1-10 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a FAITH that can move mountains,BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I AM NOTHING. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

The Father never leaves the Son & they are one, bound by the Holy spirit (1cor 6 :17,john 10:30). In the same way faith & works go together & is bound by love (gal 5:6)

 

[Utah]

Utah - I have a simple problem, it is not for me to say who is not repenting of sins,
in the sense I mean it. I can but testify to what people wrote in the past.

Now the object of my testimony is to demonstrate the reality of the theology.
It appears you do not believe anyone is living in unrepentant sin. I do, because it
has been my experience in church life, many do not understand the term, let alone
what walking in purity and holiness is. Many here would also say they are in continual
sin of not trusting God 24/7, which meant they were sinning. This was an argument
used that I was a sinner if I did not do their definition of the sermon on the mount 24/7.

God calls us Holy because He regards us as such. I think you need to begin to think
at how David who was a violent man, who commited adultery, had many wives, killed
Uriah the Hittite by the sword of the Philistines, stayed a man of God. What is a good
relationship with the Lord is a long way from your man made view of communion.
This implied they failed.

You made a bold statement proclaiming you know a few people here well enough to know they are calling for disobedience to God but you're unwilling to name them stating its not your place to name names. You're a lair and a coward.

 

[JaumeJ]

Good morning all. It seems I should leave the thread if this is the case, but I will not leave the website just yet. Thank you for hearing me anyways.

Huh?? My post wasn't even in reply to you. I was replying to PeterJens..

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Now remember he speaks for God and God will reference him by his chat name on the day of judgment to condemn men to hell....GOD told him so.......must be right hey!

This you said to another poster. To this i responded:

Did an Angel tell you these things? Did God tell you these things, or did satan tell you to falsely accuse someone who had done you no wrong at all?

i asked what i did because i never said God told me that my chat name would be used to condemn people to hell. as you claim that i did, therefore i asked if an angel told you that? or if God told you those things, or did satan tell you to say those things about me. my point being, God or no angel told you that i said what you claim.

This is what i plainly said God told me, please read carefully.

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Most disregard me, because that is what God told me this generation would do. He already told me, this generation would not receive the things that He told me. i even asked Him during that conversation, why then even tell them, if you know they will not hear it? He then told me "So they will not be able to plead ignorance when they stand before ME, they will have no cloak for their sins"

Then i responded:

Does anything here say or even imply that i speak for God? No, that thinking comes from you. Is there anything here that suggest that it will be me that condemns anyone to Hell? No, that thinking comes from you. So all these things are lies, and who is the father of lies? Jesus Loves you, He does, He desires to come into your heart and change you from the way that you are now. Let Him in, you will not regret it, i promise.

Then you respond with this:

Nice deceptive move....now pull up the quote I was referencing...........you know.....The one where you said clearly that JESUS would call you by your Christian chat name and reference your teachings so as to condemn......just like a deceiver.....

REFERENCE the QUOTE I WAS REFERENCING or be found a FRAUD

lol, (not laughing at you, but with you brother) you accuse me of saying that, then want me to find where i did that. seriously?

Love you Brother, but it is not on me to back up your accusation against me. If you think that i said God said that my chat name would be mentioned to condemn people, then it is not on me to show where i have done that, but on the one who accuses me of saying that. lol. you got it backwards there.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Did an Angel tell you these things? Did God tell you these things, or did satan tell you to falsely accuse someone who had done you no wrong at all?




Does anything here say or even imply that i speak for God? No, that thinking comes from you. Is there anything here that suggest that it will be me that condemns anyone to Hell? No, that thinking comes from you. So all these things are lies, and who is the father of lies? Jesus Loves you, He does, He desires to come into your heart and change you from the way that you are now. Let Him in, you will not regret it, i promise.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Here, I will post the quote I was referencing that you so conveniently failed to post or left out on purpose.....very deceptive!

i did not leave anything out at all, only you think that i did. i responded to something that you said to another person. see previous post

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Most disregard me, because that is what God told me this generation would do. He already told me, this generation would not receive the things that He told me. i even asked Him during that conversation, why then even tell them, if you know they will not hear it? He then told me "So they will not be able to plead ignorance when they stand before ME, they will have no cloak for their sins" <- this is what God said to me. The next part God did not tell me, but is TRUE nonetheless.

So then those MOST you refer to, will hear my name again on Judgement Day when Jesus says to them "My servant DiscipleDave told you the TRUTH which he testified came from ME, and you rejected what I told him" You that are the MOST have been warned. (and not my name only but every single person that God send to them to try to get them to turn from the errors of their ways)

Is it any wander the TRUTH is rejected in a world devoid of the TRUTH. Jesus was killed for teaching the Truth. Most of the Apostles were killed for teaching the TRUTH. The Truth has no place in a world that currently belongs to satan, therefore is it any wander that MOST reject it when they hear it?

Which part of this is contrary to Scriptures? yes, yes, contrary to what you believe this i already know, but where in Scriptures is it contrary to what i have said above?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Sorry, no. In the above statement you say
"You "get" saved by grace through faith and not by works"
then you say
"but, getting saved by grace through faith and not by works does not mean one "is" saved.

Didn't the first thing you say, you said "You get Saved, by Grace through faith and not by works"
But then you basically say "Your really NOT saved by Grace through faith and not by works in the second statement"

You either GET SAVED by Grace, through Faith and not by works, or you don't. Sorry, please explain.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

It's your premise, you explain it.

i don't get it, sorry, you say something that i do not understand, and then i ask you about something that you said, and then you say it is my premise. How so? If i am merely asking for you to explain something that you said? How is that my premise? Seriously i don't understand what you are saying here. Either you know what you said and can explain it, or you don't know what you said, and can't explain it and respond as you did here.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[PeterJens]

You made a bold statement proclaiming you know a few people here well enough to know they are calling for disobedience to God but you're unwilling to name them stating its not your place to name names. You're a lair and a coward.

Utah - I think you have miss-understood a simple point I am making.

A discussion was had which went like this. Future sin is forgiven, so we are forgiven as we sin.
Hey even today I got angry at that driver who cut me up.
Every morning I get up and grumble about the day.
I cannot go 1 hour without sinning.

This was all said to prove the point we all sin everyday, in everything we do.

Now I am not calling this sin or not sin, the people themselves judged and condemned it as such.
So this is where I have a problem.

If the ethic is we are lost in sin, so repeated sinful behaviour is just part of who we are, that is
willful disobedience and not knowing the meaning of the cross or salvation.

Now this is my testimony, and I could go back to prove it is true, but that is not the point.
The question actually is, is this the right position a child of God should take or not?

My view is this is just a total miss-understanding and experience of walking with an open heart
in Christ, in purity and holiness.

So I do not see how this makes me a coward or a liar. I am not here to condemn people, but
to shine a light on miss-guided beliefs and practices before the Lord. It is up to people themselves
to choose their action as a result.

But thankyou for challenging me to explain more clearly how we are to walk as blameless, pure, holy
children of the Living God. Listen to Pauls exhortation to Timothy

Set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Tim 4:12

But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
1 Tim 6:11

 

[PeterJens]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Ok dcontroversal - Using the words no one is not wise because all there needs to be is one
person somewhere and you are wrong.

And my analysis of beliefs is correct, based on HG sources. If you do not know them then
you do not know HG theology.

Every statement I am making is because in past discussions this has been the consensus view
of the group. Now if you want to explain which point I got wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

It will be hard as they are simple points.
1. Future sin forgiven.
2. OSAS.
3. Total inability doctrine.
4. Imputed righteousness makes us saved, and redeemed forever.

This is almost a pure reformed position, with a tweek.
Or maybe you are unaware of what a reformed position actually is.

HG is your fantasy land....the bible drips with grace from front to back...you should wake up to it instead of your own self righteous working for false salvation

a) Did Christ die for sin or not, where sin abounds grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND
b) Your god must be weak....My GOD saves eternally not temporarily...must be tragic to serve a god that takes your salvation away...so...how many time have you been saved?
c) The righteousness of God is imputed to the believer....scripture teaches this...No wonder you believe you must keep yourself saved....!

I wonder at such large accusations you are making.
The real crux is simple. Do we have to walk in purity and righteously to follow Jesus?
Yes. The question is how.

My position is simple, you say No.
And thereby undermine salvation, ones walk, and ones goal.

The issue with the Lord is not how difficult is the task, but is it possible and how.
If the apostles almost got it wrong, found it to the limit of their ability, why is it
going to be any easier for us.

Most people end their lives is dispair and great loss. Heaven and hell fight to keep
us on the road, against which there are many enemies, the most difficult of which
is our own hearts. But our great victory and weapon is love through the cross,
which shines a light and clears everything with Gods word and the Holy Spirit.

I can only testify, an open heart, purity within, following God is our victory,
led by Christs love and forgiveness in and through the cross, the grace of
God given that sinners like us might become Children of the Living God.

 

[gb9]

" do we have to walk in purity and righteously to follow Jesus" yes.

reality re-phrase- should our goal every day be to walk in purity and righteousness? yes

by Biblical standards, do we fall short of that goal? yes

one more time, we need to use the Biblical definition of sin to determine how we are walking, just declaring ourselves pure and righteous does not count.

 

[PeterJens]

" do we have to walk in purity and righteously to follow Jesus" yes.

reality re-phrase- should our goal every day be to walk in purity and righteousness? yes

by Biblical standards, do we fall short of that goal? yes

one more time, we need to use the Biblical definition of sin to determine how we are walking, just declaring ourselves pure and righteous does not count.

So you agree this is our goal. Amen.

Do we fall short walking as Christ did by biblical standards? No.

So let us learn how to walk as Christ did.

So much cynicism, so much judgementalism and self condemnation.
All have sinned, but not all continue in sin.

This is the stumbling block of the gospel to those who call themselves realists.
As a statement of faith, they declare it is impossible to not continue in sin.

But then how is Paul blameless, holy, pure, or Timothy or the apostles. They must
have got it wrong, or maybe the cost is too great for these cynical believers so their
hearts want the reward without paying the price, full surrender to Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

HG is your fantasy land....the bible drips with grace from front to back...you should wake up to it instead of your own self righteous working for false salvation

a) Did Christ die for sin or not, where sin abounds grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND
b) Your god must be weak....My GOD saves eternally not temporarily...must be tragic to serve a god that takes your salvation away...so...how many time have you been saved?
c) The righteousness of God is imputed to the believer....scripture teaches this...No wonder you believe you must keep yourself saved....!

You have to realize who you are talking to.

He made a thread stating christ did not do enough to save us,. Thats all you need to know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You made a bold statement proclaiming you know a few people here well enough to know they are calling for disobedience to God but you're unwilling to name them stating its not your place to name names. You're a lair and a coward.

he can't name names, because there are non, and he knows it. so he just continues his strawman