Not By Works

[VCO]

I get tired of being misquoted about the Apostles Creed. It is a statement of doctrine about what a Christian must believe. It allows differences of opinion outside of what it says. It seperates Christians from heretics. The early church fathers crafted it for this doctrinal purpose. All your rambling diatribe is foolish trying to make it something it is not!! Go look online at your denominations doctrinal statement and then make the same complaint about it.

I disagree that it seperates Christians from Heretics. The Point I was trying to make, their are MORE of the Psuedo-Christians that think they believe every word of the Apostles Creed, and NOT ONE OF THEM ARE SAVED. I am not saying you are not BORN AGAIN, I would have to see the fruit after a couple years to determine that. I was ONE OF THEM, THINKING I WAS SAVED because I said and believed in my HEAD, the Apostles Creed, and took up space on a Pew. NONE OF IT SAVED ME, only when I out of LOVE FOR HIM, I surrendered to JESUS CHRIST as LORD, and genuinely repented of my sins, mourning all the while, DID HE PERSONALLY SAVE ME. AND I disagree with what you claim is a "MUST BELIEVE", to be saved. It is a an inner, personal, relationship, from the HEART {NOT THE HEAD} that JESUS is in me, and I am in HIS spiritual BODY, that equals Born Again. I know, I STANDING in the Doorway of Hades/Hell, UNSAVED, and I had Believed in my HEAD that every statement in the APOSTLES CREED were true, and thought that SAVED ME. USING the YARDSTICK of the Apostles Creed, IS THE WRONG YARDSTICK

HERE IS THE SECRET:

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


That is that inner, personal, LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.


THE SAME IS TRUE HERE:


Matthew 25:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’


AGAIN it NOT KNOWING HIM IN THAT INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE Relationship with JESUS AS LORD, THAT IS THE NARROW GATE THAT MOST MISS. You HAVE TO COME THRU THE CORRECT GATE, to ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.


RECEIVE HIM AS WHAT THOUGH?:


Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,


Where does that KIND OF LOVE comes from:


Romans 5:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!


Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess​ {NOT JUST PROFESS THAT JESUS IS THE LORD, I HAS TO BE TRUE ABOUT YOURSELF BEFORE IT IS CONSIDERED A CONFESSION} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;


John 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7[/SUP]"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


NONE OF THAT IS IN THE APOSTLES CREED.

 

[Seohce]

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

 

[Studyman]

or you could stick to what the Bible actually says.



Christ gave him three commands, go, give what you have to the poor, and then come follow.

first he went. you condemned him for that, but he was following Christ's command.

then, what does the text say? discussing this man as an example, Jesus corrects His disciples saying 'what is impossible with man is possible with God'

if you presume it is impossible that he received life - Jesus directly contradicts you.

he was sad - if he loved his wealth, and he wasn't going to part with it, he would not be sad, only if he intended to obey the Lord.
he was sad - if he did not intend to follow Christ, and he rejected Him, he would not be sad, only if he believed in the Son and thought he could not follow Him.

in either case, his sadness indicates faith.
whatever the case, the scripture explicitly says Jesus loved him.
whatever your own private interpretation and human judgement of him is -- all according to what is very much the mainstream teaching and tradition of men -- Jesus uses him as an example to teach His disciples that all things are possible with God.
this is told in 3 of the gospels. it's important.

do you love your own tradition of interpretation more than what the scripture actually says?
because the scripture simply does not make any of the accusations you are making about him.

very much the common view.
very much wrong, IMO.

Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said,
How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Matt. 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

How about "sorrowful" because he knew he didn't believe in this Man enough to give away his ruler ship and his riches to follow Him.


You have zero support that this man gave up his belongings and became a disciple of Christ. ZERO. Just the opposite.

He walked away.

He didn't say: "I believe, help me in my unbelief". Nor, "Please help me to do the impossible". Nothing!!!! Only that he walked away from the Christ sorrowful after the Messiah had just told him all he needed to do to inherit permanent, eternal, everlasting life. And that is the last we hear of him.

The only thing we know for sure is that this man actually told Jesus that He didn't sin "From his youth". Funny you didn't even question that, given how you all preach such a feat would be impossible for a man to do.

The real question should be "why did Jesus tell this man to do "works" to go to heaven? Isn't that what this thread is about?

Why this Jesus must be a Legalist, a Pharisee. the nerve to tell a man that he must actually "do" something in order to go to heaven.
Did the man sell all he had and become a disciple of Christ? You preach yes. But we have no evidence that He ever asked the Messiah for help, so how was it even possible for him to comply.


Jesus loved this man. Didn't Jesus also love the Pharisees? Did Jesus ask any differently from this man than He asked from Abraham?

You have your own interpretation of scriptures which support your own religious traditions. You are welcome to them and it is always good to have discussions regarding Scriptures.

 

[gb9]

the focus of the rich young ruler- after he told Jesus " all these I have kept from my youth ", Jesus said " you still lack one thing ".

command keeping does not save. Jesus told him to sell what he had, give to the poor, then he would have treasure in Haven. he was not told he would get treasure added to what he had accrued by command keeping.

 

[posthuman]

You have zero support that this man gave up his belongings and became a disciple of Christ. ZERO. Just the opposite.

He walked away.

Christ's first imperative to him was "go"

as i already pointed out, you condemn him for this; you condemn him for obedience to God's command.
but you still do?

do you think he had all his possessions in his pocket, and he was supposed to sell them right there?
Jesus said, "go"

 

[posthuman]

How about "sorrowful" because he knew he didn't believe in this Man enough to give away his ruler ship and his riches to follow Him.


You have zero support that this man gave up his belongings and became a disciple of Christ. ZERO.

his sadness is support for the view that loves mercy. like i also earlier pointed out, if he was sad because he thought he could not follow Christ, then his heart desired to do so and in his heart he knew what He had told him was the truth.

this indicates belief, and 'a godly sorrow that worketh repentance' --- if he thought Jesus was a nutter, and didn't believe His word, he wouldn't be sad.


do you go away sad after you read my post?
what does your conviction or lack of it indicate about how you receive me, when i tell you you've lacked something?

 

[posthuman]

You have zero support that this man gave up his belongings and became a disciple of Christ. ZERO.

using this man as an example Jesus corrects the unbelief of his disciples, saying 'with God all things are possible'

which view of this man do Christ's own words support?

mercy or condemnation?

 

[posthuman]

Jesus loved this man. Didn't Jesus also love the Pharisees? Did Jesus ask any differently from this man than He asked from Abraham?

about how many individual people is it written explicitly in the scripture that "Jesus loved" ?

not 'He loved the whole world' but calling out a specific person and specifically saying Jesus loved this particular individual?

this man is in that group.

Martha, her sister and Lazarus -- John 11:5
anywhere else? it's not common! and it's not insignificant as you're trying to make it!

 

[posthuman]

You have your own interpretation of scriptures which support your own religious traditions. You are welcome to them and it is always good to have discussions regarding Scriptures.

well i guess you got a 'tradition' of damning everyone, and i have one of loving mercy.

so.

where does that discussion go?

 

[posthuman]

Did Jesus ask any differently from this man than He asked from Abraham?

you got a verse in Genesis where Abraham is commanded to sell all he has and give to the poor?

 

[Studyman]

his sadness is support for the view that loves mercy. like i also earlier pointed out, if he was sad because he thought he could not follow Christ, then his heart desired to do so and in his heart he knew what He had told him was the truth.

this indicates belief, and 'a godly sorrow that worketh repentance' --- if he thought Jesus was a nutter, and didn't believe His word, he wouldn't be sad.


do you go away sad after you read my post?
what does your conviction or lack of it indicate about how you receive me, when i tell you you've lacked something?

I understand your belief. I posted my thoughts, which you didn't consider. That is fine. we will once again disagree.

Maybe he did walk away from the Christ and do what was impossible to do without Him. As I said, all we know is that He claimed to be sin free, "From his youth" and that He "walked away" without saying a word.


Your account of these scriptures contradicts your own preaching from before. This guy tells Jesus he doesn't sin. Jesus tells him that's not enough, you must give up your riches as well in order to go to heaven. And you completely ignore this. I am learning a lot from these discussion with you.


I understand these differently, but I also believe true repentance takes "work", and I also believe God's Laws are not "Rudiments of the World", nor are they against us. I also believe it is mans religious traditions which are the problem in the World, not God's instructions.

This latest disagreement is just an extension of the others, IMO.

 

[Studyman]

you got a verse in Genesis where Abraham is commanded to sell all he has and give to the poor?

Jesus didn't command everyone to "sell all that they have and give to random poor people", only the rich man who claimed to be sin free. But He does tell Abraham to leave his world and follow Him into a life he didn't know.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

 

[posthuman]

He didn't say: "I believe, help me in my unbelief". Nor, "Please help me to do the impossible". Nothing!!!! Only that he walked away from the Christ sorrowful after the Messiah had just told him all he needed to do to inherit permanent, eternal, everlasting life. And that is the last we hear of him.

it's not all we hear of him. Jesus says just a moment after he obediently went away, "with God all things are possible"
who is that about?

nothing about the account of this man indicates unbelief -- it all indicates belief. ignorance, which Christ addresses, teaching him, but not unbelief.

the disciples were amazed by all this ((Mark 10:24 & 26 & 32)) -- are you not amazed too?
'here's yet another guy who loves money more than God' -- is that amazing?

so there's the disciples, in a stupor of awe, and Peter finally speaks up and says 'we've left everything to follow you!' -- Jesus then tells them no one who leaves things for His sake will fail to receive a reward in heaven, but that many who are first will be last and the last, first. this is still the context of this man you condemn. where does that man fall in {last . . first}? not in the set at all? he's already 'left' the scribes and pharisees and sadducees by coming to Christ, looking for eternal life in Him. this man came to Jesus believing that eternal life is in Him, not as the unbelievers came to Him, mocking, looking to trap and accuse. he comes to Jesus like Nicodemus did -- in the same way. what happened to Nicodemus?


we hear more about this man than you think:
we hear, how hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom!
we hear, with God all things are possible!
we hear, no one who leaves things on earth for Christ's sake will fail to receive a reward in heaven!
we hear, many who are first will be last and the last, first!

which one of these things condemns him?
human tradition condemns him. the scripture does not.

 

[posthuman]

I posted my thoughts, which you didn't consider.

pretty sure i responded to every single one of your thoughts individually over the last hour or so in a barrage of replies...

 

[posthuman]

Jesus didn't command everyone to "sell all that they have and give to random poor people", only the rich man who claimed to be sin free. But He does tell Abraham to leave his world and follow Him into a life he didn't know.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

in other words "yes post, you are right, Jesus told this man something He didn't command Abraham to do and He didn't command in the Law for the Hebrews to do" . . ?

 

[posthuman]

As I said, all we know is that He claimed to be sin free

you're building up a straw man here.

why would this man still be looking for eternal life if he believed he was "sin free" ?
he knows that even though he's kept the works of the Law he is not perfect - and Jesus tells him he knows the commandments. if Jesus says he knows, i can't say he doesn't also know that the Law says the man who does these things will live by them.
but this man knows that he does not have life, and that life is in the Son. he comes to the Son looking for life.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:37)​

why do you insist to cast him out?
do you believe Christ's words or not?

 

[posthuman]

he knows that even though he's kept the works of the Law he is not perfect - and Jesus tells him he knows the commandments. if Jesus says he knows, i can't say he doesn't also know that the Law says the man who does these things will live by them.
but this man knows that he does not have life, and that life is in the Son. he comes to the Son looking for life.

this man comes to Christ, having works of the Law, knowing that they are not sufficient to inherit life.
this man comes to Christ knowing that in Him is life -- he knows that 'the washing of the outside of the cup' is not enough and that Jesus holds the key. he comes looking for the answer to this.
He comes to 'The Answer' and Jesus teaches it to him.

he went away - obedient to the command "go" - sadly.
he went away cut to the heart.





by far most of the world sees damnation here, but i see salvation.

*shrug* that's Jesus's name, after all ♥

 

[TruthTalk]

his sadness is support for the view that loves mercy. like i also earlier pointed out, if he was sad because he thought he could not follow Christ, then his heart desired to do so and in his heart he knew what He had told him was the truth.

this indicates belief, and 'a godly sorrow that worketh repentance' --- if he thought Jesus was a nutter, and didn't believe His word, he wouldn't be sad.


do you go away sad after you read my post?
what does your conviction or lack of it indicate about how you receive me, when i tell you you've lacked something?

Hi posthuman,

If the rich young ruler was repentant, why would Jesus say; “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." The second time He said to His disciples; "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I believe The Rich Young Ruler was "grieved" because he owned much property and did not want to give it all up.. The bible does not support the idea that he was sad because he was repentant. And wouldn't the bible tell us if he later came to follow Jesus, no, but it does say "he went away grieved."

I can appreciate your sympathy for the man but it does not appear that he was repentant, and Jesus said just the opposite, it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven.

Matthew19:20-24
20) The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
21) Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22) But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23) And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]24
[/SUP]24) Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[Studyman]

about how many individual people is it written explicitly in the scripture that "Jesus loved" ?

not 'He loved the whole world' but calling out a specific person and specifically saying Jesus loved this particular individual?

this man is in that group.

Martha, her sister and Lazarus -- John 11:5
anywhere else? it's not common! and it's not insignificant as you're trying to make it!

Matt. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don' believe Jesus is a respecter of persons.


20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.


21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

OK Post, let's do it your way. The man just got through telling the Messiah that he never sinned. According to the TEXT, it was only after this statement that Jesus Loved Him. And then, in His Love, He instructed the man to "Go THY way", sell what he had and give to the poor. THEN he would have treasure in heaven.

After all this, then he is to come to Jesus, take up his cross, and follow Him.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Did he go sell them?

We don't know, but the disciples didn't think so.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in richesto enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

It seems the Disciples didn't think the man sorrowed to repentance as you preach.

They were "Astonished" that Jesus would tell this guy to go sell his stuff first, then come to Him.

And you completely ignore the implications of that instruction.

That's OK. You are free to believe as you wish.

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

After Jesus told him to go and sell all he had the wording, but he went away sorrowful seem to indicate that he did not want to do it, and did not do it.

But, but, he went away sorrowful.

I wanted to go to the store, but I did not.His wife told him to go to mow the lawn, but he did not do it.

But, but, he went away sorrowful.

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Also Jesus saying this seems to indicate that the rich man did not do it.

But whatever a person believes concerning it these scriptures do not prove the rich young man actually sold all he had and gave to the poor and became a disciple of Christ.

There is no way to prove that and it leans more towards he did not, then he did.

Because Jesus told him to go and sell all he has and he left does not mean he went to sell his things, for he would have to depart anyway whether he went to sell his things, or did not want to hear the truth and left.

It leans more towards he did not sell his things, but a person cannot prove he sold his things, for the Bible does not mention him again.

I believe the lesson is he did not sell his things as an example of what we are to do to inherit eternal life, and that is to love people for love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes feeding the poor and needy, which Jesus pointed out that the rich man cannot inherit eternal life for they do not love people.

Which Paul pointed out that he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And if anybody teaches that God blesses us with money and material things for our wants withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, which some coveted after and erred from the faith.

And James said if they do not have charity there faith is dead, and John said the love of God does not dwell in them.

The early Church sold all they had and gave to every person that had need, and had all things in common, which means they shared everything.

So I believe the story of the rich man is telling us to love people by helping them with their needs, and the rich man did not do it which is why Jesus pointed out that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

A rich man can enter heaven if they sell all the have of things that are not a necessity and give to the poor, and distribute their money above their needs to the poor, for the Bible says the rich are to distribute their money.

But the rich man cannot enter heaven if he holds unto money above his needs, and does not sell his things that are not a necessity to care about the poor, because then he does not love people in the right way.