Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

The Bible does not support both of us my friend, The Bible does nto contradfict yourself It says one thing, it has one message. There is no universalism in thge gospel.

Amen.....one true gospel message not two, three or fifty....Jesus plus faith by grace is the message.....anything added....especially works by men = false gospel

 

[Magenta]

So Paul was right. It is not by our works that save us, but it is by our works that we know we are saved.

Can you agree with that?

I know I am saved because God called me. I heard Him, and responded. His sheep hear His voice; they know Him, and follow Him. John 10:1-10 explains this. Our good works show others we are saved. Is letting others know we are saved a requirement for salvation? No, it is not. Why? Because others are often blind! If my salvation depended upon how others saw me, perhaps I would be doomed. Not all others, though
​

​

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight.

Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. ​

 

[dcontroversal]

e...,

What an attempt at spin.

...shame for distorting G-d's word;

One cannot have faith in G-d without following His commands.

One can reasonably conclude that you feel one does not have to repent...huh?

I conclude that you plan to revise and publish another version of the bible in violation of scriptures...yes?

David <--Saved, man after God's own heart, writes psalms, speaks of salvation in present tense.....adultry with Bathsheba, killed Uriah

Peter-->saved, walked on water, apostle, writes 2 books of bible-->denied the Lord 3 times, and even called Satan at one point by Jesus because of his actions.

Noah->>>Upright and righteous....got drunk

Solomon->God given wisdom and riches, writes Proverbs-->built groves unto strange gods because of his wives

Saved children of God fail, sin, are weak at times.....it does not change their birth by faith and or state of eternal salvation!

 

[BillG]

If Jesus did not die on the cross, there is no salvation for any of us.

And maybe this is the crux of the issue.
No death of the cross no salvation.
Therefore how are we saved?
As a result of the cross, nothing more or nothing less.

Jesus said they he must die on the cross, rise again and go back to the Father in order for the Holy Spirit to come.
And the reason being the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin.

What is that sin?
The sin of unbelief in Jesus.
When we repent of that sin of unbelief then we place our faith in Jesus.
We have to otherwise we have not repented.

Out of this the Holy Spirit works in us to conform us to the image of Jesus.
Bear fruit, in bearing fruit we grow in obedience.
Not all bear fruit at the same rate, not all are fully obedient.
As we bear fruit obedience increases.
Yet God deals with his kids as he knows best.

That is why we should not be quick to judge.

That is why we need the love and wisdom of God when we walk with others.
We may not know what is going on behind the scenes of a person's heart.

Just a simple example.

Someone has come to faith.
So now when they have come to faith what tends to happen is that the focus is now "This is now what you should do and this is not what you should do"

Now this person has had a tough upbringing.
Maybe parents who are very demanding.
Love is shown when they achieve and critsism is shown when they don't.

Do well we will love you, don't and we will punish you.
What you only got a grade B in maths? Not good enough, revise more to get an A grade.

So love is equal to performance. Perform well and you will be loved, is not rejection and a slap down.

So when we as belivers say to them "Jesus wants your obedience and you must do this and that"
So now Jesus is just like their parents.
They start to form a relationship with him like they had with their eathly parents.

Jesus said

Matthew 28:18-20


18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Jesus discipled the disciples.

Peter tells Jesus to leave because I'm sinful.
Jesus calls him to follow.
So he does.
Peter cuts the ear of a guard.
Denies him 3 times.

Thomas went will not believe until he sees him.

I could add a lot more.

The point I'm trying to make is this.

Discipleship.

Jesus said "May they know that you love them as much as you love me"

So to me that's discipleship.

Jesus restored Peter.
Do you love me, the first two questions uses Agape, Peter responded with Phileo.
The 3rd time Jesus used Phileo. Then he asked him to feed his lambs.

Peter then went from Phileo to Agape in tending his flock.

So this is my point.
Its knowing who we are in Jesus that relesses us to be free to be like him.
Peter knew Jesus loved him but also knew that Jesus accepted him when he got it wrong.
And Peter loved Jesus, it moved from brotherly love to total love.

Peter would have had the Holy Spirit in him that bought this about.

It's the same for all of us.

Its our identity in Jesus that sets us free to be like him, to want to be like him.

 

[star]

We are saved to have an eternal relationship with God Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth.

We are to follow the example of Jesus Christ, once saved, in order to be His vessel (hands, feet, voice).

We are to submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit, once saved, in order to do the above.

We are not saved in order to do works.

Even the un-saved can do good works. I've seen the evidence.

 

[benhur]

@benhur

The Baptism Paul talks about is not a water baptism but a spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ , the minute you believe the Gospel 1st Cor. 1-4

Again, how can you know for sure when it says 'one baptism' it is refering to the baptism of the Spirit, and not water baptism?

And what scripture in 1 Corinthians 1-4 says the minute you believe the gospel you are saved?

 

[benhur]

The only motive for Obedience, that is of VALUE TO GOD, is simply: "Because you LOVE HIM."


Any other MOTIVE is a Pile of Filthy Rags.
Isaiah 64:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

So are you saying that if you love God, you will obey his commandments?

And can you say that if you do not love God, you will not keep his commandments?

And can you say that if you do not love God and you do not keep his commandments, then you were never saved from the beginning?

 

[benhur]

No, you had better not misinterpret, thinking it is your righteousness.

That is exactly what I said. Thank you for confirming that. When I say "just like the rest of us", I am including myself and others. We all must interpret scripture properly. But there is the problem. I interpret the word 'baptism' in the scripture that says there is one Lord, and one baptism as meaning a water baptism, you interpret it as being spirit baptism. So who is right, and how do you provide support for it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, how can you know for sure when it says 'one baptism' it is refering to the baptism of the Spirit, and not water baptism?

And what scripture in 1 Corinthians 1-4 says the minute you believe the gospel you are saved?

lets see.

The baptism of God

The baptism of our pastor.

yeah, Not to hard to figure out. Who are you trusting, God or man? That will give you the answer.

 

[benhur]

The topic of this thread is "Not By Works", A Christian is saved by God's gift of eternal salvation. If you add works to your salvation you are boasting in what you have done. You can tap dance all you want about faith with works faith without works but I will not be apart of your nonsense and besides you know the answer to "can we say." Yes we can say good bye to you and your game playing nonsense.

Jesus Curses a Fig Tree
18) Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
19) Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Quote: Answer to why Jesus Curses a Fig Tree;
Jesus was effectively denouncing Israel’s worship of God. With the cursing of the fig tree, He was symbolically denouncing Israel as a nation and, in a sense, even denouncing unfruitful “Christians” (that is, people who profess to be Christian but have no evidence of a relationship with Christ).

The curse of the fig tree is exactly what I am talking about. Jesus cursed a green leafy fig tree that looked good, but is producing no fruit.

He was saying exactly what you said. If you are a Christian and you say a lot of nice things and you teach a lot of what sounds like sound doctrine, and you in all ways look like a good and active Christian for God, but in the end you bear no fruit for God, you will be cursed too. Or to say it another way, if you produce little or no, you were never really saved in the first place. There is no dance here.

 

[benhur]

Those are your words not mine.

Do you actually have anything to say about what I said?Or did you attack because you can not refute what I said?

This is a discussion between brothers of Christ, about a subject that is important. If I am attacking, I apologize.

 

[Magenta]

The curse of the fig tree is exactly what I am talking about. Jesus cursed a green leafy fig tree that looked good, but is producing no fruit.

He was saying exactly what you said. If you are a Christian and you say a lot of nice things and you teach a lot of what sounds like sound doctrine, and you in all ways look like a good and active Christian for God, but in the end you bear no fruit for God, you will be cursed too. Or to say it another way, if you produce little or no, you were never really saved in the first place. There is no dance here.

I believe the fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish system of religion and temple/animal sacrifice. If you recall, Jesus cursed the fig tree as He was approaching Jerusalem during what is referred to as Holy Week, coming up to His resurrection. He was signaling that their system (under the law) bore no fruit, and that a new way was to be ushered in, what we know as the new covenant, instituted with the shedding of His righteous blood for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Magenta]

I believe the fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish system of religion and temple/animal sacrifice. If you recall, Jesus cursed the fig tree as He was approaching Jerusalem during what is referred to as Holy Week, coming up to His resurrection. He was signaling that their system (under the law) bore no fruit, and that a new way was to be ushered in, what we know as the new covenant, instituted with the shedding of His righteous blood for the forgiveness of sins.

I meant to say, coming up to His crucifixion...

 

[VCO]

I just wanted to throw these two things out there:

First of all, I've seen several post make this statement: "When you get to heaven and God asks, "Why should I let you in...." " I just want you to know, He is not going to ask you why he should let you in. When you get to the Judgement seat, he already knows whether you are gettin in or not! lol

Secondly, I haven't seen anyone deal with this scripture:

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Would someone who doesn't believe in doing anything to be saved please explain how these "works" play into judgement since they aren't necessary? Please keep in mind that the context of this scripture is not rewards for those who are saved. It is a determination of whether or not these people get into heaven or go to hell.

><> t <><


I will be GLAD TO. You should know that you should read the entire context, and you would have found the answer.


Revelation 20:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


That is why they will be lacking, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS, because their names were NEVER in the Lambs Book of Life.

The Righteous will NOT BE JUDGED ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY QUALIFY FOR SALVATION.

They will be Judged on how much reward they are worthy of when they get to HEAVEN. That according to Paul will be in the form of CROWNS, Laurel Wreath CROWNS, that were given to winners of ATHLETIC events. NOW, yes it says they will be of the NON-Perishable kind, but the Bible does not specify what it will be made of, but maybe gold, as the Elders have Golden Crowns, Rev. 4:4. So it may look like these CROWNS:

And those with only a few works worthy of rewards, may only have a small CROWN such as this:

BUT NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED FOR SALVATION BECAUSE OF THERE WORKS.


Galatians 2:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Matthew 10:42 (HCSB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And whoever gives just a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is a disciple—I assure you: He will never lose his reward!”

Colossians 2:18 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (CSBBible)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Don't you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable crown.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] So I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] According to God’s grace that was given to me, I have laid a foundation as a skilled master builder, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid down. That foundation is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.


NO, YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION, IF YOU REALLY DID HAVE IT, BUT YOU CAN LOSE YOUR REWARD.

But many think they are Saved, when they really are NOT. Many are those who only think they have Salvation, and only a FEW find the right Path.


Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


That is a reference to the INNER PERSONNEL LOVE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, THAT COMES WHEN ONE WILLINGLY OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM, SURRENDERS TO JESUS CHRIST AS LORD, MEANING MASTER.

 

[VCO]

That is exactly what I said. Thank you for confirming that. When I say "just like the rest of us", I am including myself and others. We all must interpret scripture properly. But there is the problem. I interpret the word 'baptism' in the scripture that says there is one Lord, and one baptism as meaning a water baptism, you interpret it as being spirit baptism. So who is right, and how do you provide support for it?

There you go, WRONG INTERPRETATION AGAIN.

That is a REFERENCE to Spiritual Baptism, where the Holy Spirit immerses us into the Body of Christ:


Ephesians 4:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body
—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Philippians 1:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus: To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


HOW DID WE GET THERE?


1 Thessalonians 2:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, since you have also suffered the same things from people of your own country, just as they did from the Jews


Again I ask "HOW DID WE GET THERE?"


1 Thessalonians 5:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Give thanks in everything, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.


Again I ask "HOW DID WE GET THERE?"


Colossians 2:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him,


Again I ask "HOW DID WE GET THERE?"


Ephesians 1:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens.


Again I ask "HOW DID WE GET THERE?"


SHOULD I GO ON? Hopefully you will have gotten it by now.

 

[LightLoveHope]

There you go, WRONG INTERPRETATION AGAIN.

There is only one wrong thing here, and it is the statement, "wrong interpretation again"

Baptism is both water baptism and baptism in the Holy Spirit. Both are needed as we
commune with the Lord. Part of our walk is submission and obedience, it comes with the
phrase He is our Lord and God, the one we love and would do anything for.

So by what spirit are people criticizing others for taking a biblical interpretation of scripture
and truth? How can one believer claim they have the authority of God to say something
that is clearly invalid, and yet use the words "wrong".

If being right matters so little, that a small point is magnified into something serious, suggests
this movement is not of God but some form of legalism. If one says I am free to do anything
but here is the list of things I cannot do, the first statement is constrained by the second.
One is free to do anything allowed within the rules, but the rules still hold sway.

So a group who claim they are lawless, yet will recognize sin to a degree of OCD, are actually
the most legalistic, critical cynics one could invent. Nothing is good enough for them, even
that which God declares as clean. They will claim not to be legalists, yet talk like atheists,
who mock Gods morality as hypocrisy. They will deny heart purity, and cleansing.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Who? Who opposes this? You are a great one for spinning tales, at one time saying you cannot say who is saved, and at another saying you do know. Seems to me you argue with yourself, as much as those on this thread who oppose your continual nonsense.

Greeting Magenta,

If you quote part of my point, you can interpret it how you want.
Do you believe you are cleansed, made pure and Holy through repentance, confession, and faith?

I have yet to hear you believe this is what Christ brings you and you can walk in purity and
holiness. So please humor me, and answer this question, yes you believe you walk like this
or no sin still holds you and you can never be purified until you see Christ?

 

[LightLoveHope]

That is why it is not worth responding to him anymore. All he does is slander people.

I have to laugh.
How is talking about love and purity slandering anyone?

A light just shines, and says this is the way of God and Christ.

Rather than shining like lights, some want only to intimate sin and evil where there is none,
and stir up trouble over their own problems. And the fools are those who take
Gods word, claim to know Him and then deny the very words He speaks.

Now some would claim I do not take Jesus promises to heart. I do, and I listen to Him and
everything He has spoken, it dwells in my heart and molds me. It is clear from the testimony
of many, they do not listen to Jesus's words, or see the meaning to their own judgment.

Jesus calls us to be perfect like the Father is perfect in blessing His enemies, so we should
bless and love those who hate us. Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you love like God? No, then repent, humble yourselves

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:6-11

As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:14-16

Brother and sisters in Christ, we are called to be Holy, and to recognize the cleansing He
has given us. Sinners who resist repentance, confession and forgiveness will always gnash
their teeth, and respond in anger and hatred towards the light of life. Listen to their words
and the enmity, and know then what is in their hearts, because if they were pure and cleansed
they would rejoice with these words. It is this simple. Spiritual realities exist and speak louder
than their fine sounding arguments and logic, because sin will always find a way to excuse its
own sin.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I believe the fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish system of religion and temple/animal sacrifice. If you recall, Jesus cursed the fig tree as He was approaching Jerusalem during what is referred to as Holy Week, coming up to His resurrection. He was signaling that their system (under the law) bore no fruit, and that a new way was to be ushered in, what we know as the new covenant, instituted with the shedding of His righteous blood for the forgiveness of sins.

This interpretation unfortunately has God judging His own law and institutions.
This is not Gods way or His meaning.

He was judging the lack of love, life and truth that was coming out of the keeping
apparently of the law of God, while actually being hypocrites with no heart of love.

This is true of any following of God without love at its core, in the heart of every
believer. It is just a clanging gong.

A faith that has no actions or outworkings of love and fulfillment of the promises is
empty and pointless.

It is like all the believers who claim to trust God, but carry a gun within easy reach
to blow away the bad guy if they are threatened. So trusting God is just the fake
emblem, trusting their high performance weapon is their true security.

So equally believing God cares for people, but actually helping people in need is the
socialist/communist evil that must be resisted and people must help themselves or
God is judging them for their evil behavior.

So much fake ideas, when broken down are just selfish justification of what they have
and why they should keep it, and if anyone threatens them, fight to the death. This
is nothing to do with the Kingdom of heaven, and everything to do with the Kingdom of
earth. So be wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Amen......it boils down to the blood which pointed to Christ.....all workers for and sinless perfectionists point to self instead of Christ....anything that glorifies self in any form is false!!

dcontroversal claims to know "the truth" and care about "the truth"
Everyone who he regards as opposing his position he calls "all workers for and sinless perfectionists"

So he lies all the time, literally. You cannot stand for a Holy Righteous God who is precise
in His words and rebukes, and claim to be His spokesperson, condemning people to hell and
damnation, while lying so badly about who is in this evil group and who is not.

So everything is this binary, yes no simplification. Maybe this is all he can cope with, and
how he defines what is real and what is illusion. If you as a reader, member, contributor
agree with this approach, you yourself are lying. This has nothing to do with God, but is
some cultural identity grouping, angry at the world, and wanting to have a simple solution
by which to find this world guilty of the evil and the speaker innocent.

Once people lie like this, nothing in their isolation lifestyle is real or true. Until they begin
to show signs of recognizing the complexity and difficulties of life and where people are,
there is little hope that truth or God can speak into this situation.

Only with a pure heart will you see God. So go to Christ, repent and find a pure heart.