Not By Works

[Ralph-]

a. Claim to know Christ

Lot's of people claim to know Christ. Even fake believers claim to know Christ. That doesn't make it so. The person who claims to know Christ but who does not obey him is a liar. They do not know him. That's what John said.

b. Claim their works prove it

That is what the Bible says. Obedience shows that you know Christ, not just claim to know Christ. If you claim to know Christ and do not obey Christ's command(s) you are a liar and the truth is not in you-1 John 4:20

"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."-1 John 4:20

See, works DO matter. Works DO prove you know God. Just as the absence of works shows you do not know him. If this is convicting to anyone, take it to Jesus. You can't do this in and of yourself. Your obedience is a work of God in you. He will do it if you ask him to. You'll be shocked. It'll sneak up on you somewhere in your day and you'll be like, "wow"! Then you'll want more. And he will deliver. And you will praise him for his faithfulness and Sunday's praise and worship will flow out of your heart. Or Saturday's, which ever day you meet to worship God.

c. Claim their works have earned the right to enter

No, everyone knows works do not earn salvation.
Works show we have the right to enter into the kingdom because the blood of Christ has made us worthy to enter-Colossians 1:12.

Lip service (faith alone) shows you are not worthy by the blood of Christ to enter in.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Those who love will walk in love. Those who have been forgiven much will realise that and walk in it.

The issue for me is that people forget where they were and where they are now.

My simple case study is me.

Severe gambling problem, for many many years. I hated it.
Even as a believer.

I have been healed and relesed from it.

I now walk with others who suffer the same issue.

Do I tell them "JUST stop it?
No I don't.
I understand the cause of the effect.

That's what I focus on.
I tell them what I went through and what Jesus has done in me to set me free.

The big issue for me is when people say "Dont do it, if you carry on then your not saved"

The bigger issue is that genuine believers come alongside but have not been through what the other person has been through.

Would I walk alongside with someone who's spouse was an adultery?
Probably not. Because I haven't experienced that.

Would I walk alongside a person who suffered as a result of divorced parents?
Yes I would, because I went through it 4 times.

My main point is

Do not write people off based on what we see.

Get to know the person.
Find out what is really going on.
Find out what is truly in their hearts.

Greetings Bill,

I agree with you. Getting to know people and loving them where they are is the gospel.

Not jumping to conclusions about what people believe and why, but exploring their
views and sharing the ups and downs of spiritual reality.

What some seem to forget is we are servants of the Lord, disciples on a path defined
by Jesus, rooted and grounded in His word and truth.

And in the end, what matters most is we learn how to be like Jesus.

 

[Seohce]

who are you preaching to? We preach that Gods children do what he says.. Your yelling at a wall..

And if anyone would preach and teach that works such as obedience to God cannot be added to Faith to be saved...because Faith ALONE saves, what does it mean?

Can we just say and claim to have faith and be saved? FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.


Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They CLAIM to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and DO NOT DO WHAT I SAY?

1 John 1:6-7 IF WE CLAIM to have fellowship with him YET WALK IN THE DARKNESS, we lie and do not live by the truth. But IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH but has no deeds? CAN SUCH FAITH SAVE HIM?

IT IS ONE THING TO “SAY AND CLAIM" AND ANOTHER THING TO “DO AND WALK THE TALK.”



Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you think for one minute that I do anything to supplement my salvation you are sorely mistaken....and if you would pay attention to anything that has been said you could easily articulate exactly what I believe and my stance......

I am beginning to think he just likes to argue. It is obvious he is not listening to a word anyone says. So he has to have an ulterior motive

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep. Weird how he'll preach against sinning while he's lying about who he is.

It goes with his whole frame of mind, remember, he would preach about sinning while slandering and lieing about others. And refusing to repent when he was confronted. But blame shifting. So it just goes to fit what he is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

N...,
Please show scripture why says we cannot loose our salvation?

Have you ever read John 6?

What part of NEVER hunger Never thirst do you not understated?
What part of NEVER die and live forever is hard to grasp?
What part of Will NEVER be lost is hard to comprehend?
What part of HAS ETERNAL life is confusing you?
What part of will be assured that we will be ressurected by him, not delivered to him is so hard to figure out?

Then we have John 3 (ETERENAL life) 1 John 1: 5 (KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL life) Eph 1 (Seal of the spirit) of Phil 1: 6 (He who BEGAN a good work WILL COMPLETE IT) of Heb 10: 14 (He has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED) in John 10 (No one (including ourselves) Is able to snatch us out of Gods hands) is so hard to fathom?

And I have just begun, there are so so many more I can post.

 

[UnderGrace]

Lip service (faith alone)

Faith alone is not lip service

Sometimes I think your true beliefs come shining through...it really is all about finding a way to denigrate faith and place works high above.

Lot's of people claim to know Christ. Even fake believers claim to know Christ. That doesn't make it so. The person who claims to know Christ but who does not obey him is a liar. They do not know him. That's what John said.




That is what the Bible says. Obedience shows that you know Christ, not just claim to know Christ. If you claim to know Christ and do not obey Christ's command(s) you are a liar and the truth is not in you-1 John 4:20

"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."-1 John 4:20

See, works DO matter. Works DO prove you know God. Just as the absence of works shows you do not know him. If this is convicting to anyone, take it to Jesus. You can't do this in and of yourself. Your obedience is a work of God in you. He will do it if you ask him to. You'll be shocked. It'll sneak up on you somewhere in your day and you'll be like, "wow"! Then you'll want more. And he will deliver. And you will praise him for his faithfulness and Sunday's praise and worship will flow out of your heart. Or Saturday's, which ever day you meet to worship God.




No, everyone knows works do not earn salvation.
Works show we have the right to enter into the kingdom because the blood of Christ has made us worthy to enter-Colossians 1:12.

Lip service (faith alone) shows you are not worthy by the blood of Christ to enter in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And if anyone would preach and teach that works such as obedience to God cannot be added to Faith to be saved...because Faith ALONE saves, what does it mean?

Can we just say and claim to have faith and be saved? FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.


Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They CLAIM to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and DO NOT DO WHAT I SAY?

1 John 1:6-7 IF WE CLAIM to have fellowship with him YET WALK IN THE DARKNESS, we lie and do not live by the truth. But IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH but has no deeds? CAN SUCH FAITH SAVE HIM?

IT IS ONE THING TO “SAY AND CLAIM" AND ANOTHER THING TO “DO AND WALK THE TALK.”



Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

1. Obedience is not added to faith. It is the BYPRODUCT of faith. Think of it mathematically. Grace plus love (Gods perfect love for us) plus faith is the ingredient. Mix them all together and whaty is the byproduct? Salvation and works. on the other hand, if you try to mix works into the ingredients (faith plus works) the product produced is death, self righteousness, and lack of salvation

2. And again I ask, WHo here is teaching faith will nto produce works? Who here is saying one can say they have faith and live their life in sin (John said this is impossible by the way) and they will still be saved?

3. Your bible verses are useless in this conversation, because NO ONE is saying otherwise.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

N...,
Please show scripture why says we cannot loose our salvation?

those who believe of God and even for a time retain knowledge of Him
and then fall away

never believed IN Him

and He never placed the new heart and spirit in them
or they surely would have continued in faith

______________
Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ


__________

once you are born again
His incorruptible seed remains in you....

1 peter
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


________

1 peter

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[John146]

And we know who has this everlasting life in them by if they are a new creation growing up into the image and stature of Christ.

And that's for man to make that judgment? Can we really determine who is saved and who is not?

 

[John146]

I don't know. Why didn't Paul get that?

"14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach"-Philippians 2:14-15

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

When believers follow the Lord and His word, we are sons of God without rebuke. When believers neglect the Lord and His word we find ourselves with blame, sons of God in need of rebuke. Nothing in this passage concerning salvation. Paul is addressing those already saved.

 

[UnderGrace]

Only if God reveals it..via the Holy Spirit

And that's for man to make that judgment? Can we really determine who is saved and who is not?

 

[Ralph-]

Faith alone is not lip service

Faith that is alone, having no works, is a person saying they have faith but has nothing to show for their faith. James himself defined 'faith alone' for us.


"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?"-James 2:14

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24


I'm posting this to show you he defines 'faith alone' as lip service. I'm not asking you to debate the other issues associated with that. The above verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'faith alone' is mere lip service.

Sometimes I think your true beliefs come shining through...it really is all about finding a way to denigrate faith and place works high above.

I know you hear it that way. I'm completely aware of that.

It's all about faith. There is no fruit bearing outside of faith in Christ. That's why fruit bearing is the sign you are in Christ in salvation by faith. Fruitless branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. If fruitless branches somehow belonged to Christ they would be retained by Christ, not cast off.

In the end, fruitlessness shows you do not have faith in Christ. If you are a barren field when Jesus comes back you will be burned, not saved...

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."-Hebrews 6:8

On the other hand, if you have fruitful work, you have that which accompanies salvation. You show by your work that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. This is taught to us in the example of the Hebrew church...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."-Hebrews 6:9-10


If any of you are barren and fruitless, fall on Jesus. He will make you ready for his return. That's why he came here first to warn us. He will give you salvation and the things that accompany salvation that make it certain that you are indeed saved and ready to meet him.

"We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."-Hebrews 6:11-12

 

[Ralph-]

Only if God reveals it..via the Holy Spirit

Look in the mirror. Do you see Jesus?

Sarah knew she possessed the promise of a son that would inherit the Land on her behalf by how that promised child was growing each day inside of her and pressing out from her inward parts. And so it is for the Christian. We know that we have the promises made to Abraham when we see Jesus, the promised Son, growing in us every day. People who can't see Jesus growing in them don't have the promises applied to them.

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you"-Galatians 4:19

 

[John146]

Only if God reveals it..via the Holy Spirit

Nothing is Scripture gives us this indication. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the word of God to us, not who is saved and who is not.

 

[Ralph-]

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

When believers follow the Lord and His word, we are sons of God without rebuke. When believers neglect the Lord and His word we find ourselves with blame, sons of God in need of rebuke. Nothing in this passage concerning salvation. Paul is addressing those already saved.

People here keep claiming we don't have to prove we are children of God. But Paul plainly said to prove we are children of God by not grumbling and complaining. That's the point I was addressing.

Works do matter. They show us to be children of God. And the Bible plainly tells us to do that.....show by our lives that we are children of God.

 

[John146]

Faith that is alone, having no works, is a person saying they have faith but has nothing to show for their faith. James himself defined 'faith alone' for us.


"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?"-James 2:14

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24


I'm posting this to show you he defines 'faith alone' as lip service. I'm not asking you to debate the other issues associated with that. The above verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'faith alone' is mere lip service.



I know you hear it that way. I'm completely aware of that.

It's all about faith. There is no fruit bearing outside of faith in Christ. That's why fruit bearing is the sign you are in Christ in salvation by faith. Fruitless branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. If fruitless branches somehow belonged to Christ they would be retained by Christ, not cast off.

In the end, fruitlessness shows you do not have faith in Christ. If you are a barren field when Jesus comes back you will be burned, not saved...

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."-Hebrews 6:8

On the other hand, if you have fruitful work, you have that which accompanies salvation. You show by your work that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. This is taught to us in the example of the Hebrew church...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."-Hebrews 6:9-10


If any of you are barren and fruitless, fall on Jesus. He will make you ready for his return. That's why he came here first to warn us. He will give you salvation and the things that accompany salvation that make it certain that you are indeed saved and ready to meet him.

"We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."-Hebrews 6:11-12

I am justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my faith. My faith waivers. My faith cannot justify my salvation, only the faith of Christ. Christ's work on the cross justifies His faith. That's saving faith.

 

[Ralph-]

And that's for man to make that judgment? Can we really determine who is saved and who is not?

The whole letter of 1 John is explaining how you can discern those who teach but who do not belong to God.

 

[UnderGrace]

It would seem you have a contradiction between Paul and James and are trying to synthesize them into one path of salvation of faith and works.

Yet, James is not talking about justification before God for salvation which has already been presented to you.

Ultimately your binding of faith AND works into ONE package for salvation and a restored relationship with God is the antithesis of the true Gospel

Faith that is alone, having no works, is a person saying they have faith but has nothing to show for their faith. James himself defined 'faith alone' for us.


"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?"-James 2:14

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24


I'm posting this to show you he defines 'faith alone' as lip service. I'm not asking you to debate the other issues associated with that. The above verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'faith alone' is mere lip service.



I know you hear it that way. I'm completely aware of that.

It's all about faith. There is no fruit bearing outside of faith in Christ. That's why fruit bearing is the sign you are in Christ in salvation by faith. Fruitless branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. If fruitless branches somehow belonged to Christ they would be retained by Christ, not cast off.

In the end, fruitlessness shows you do not have faith in Christ. If you are a barren field when Jesus comes back you will be burned, not saved...

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."-Hebrews 6:8

On the other hand, if you have fruitful work, you have that which accompanies salvation. You show by your work that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. This is taught to us in the example of the Hebrew church...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."-Hebrews 6:9-10


If any of you are barren and fruitless, fall on Jesus. He will make you ready for his return. That's why he came here first to warn us. He will give you salvation and the things that accompany salvation that make it certain that you are indeed saved and ready to meet him.

"We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."-Hebrews 6:11-12

 

[Ralph-]

those who believe of God and even for a time retain knowledge of Him
and then fall away

never believed IN Him

and He never placed the new heart and spirit in them
or they surely would have continued in faith

Which is why you should NEVER try to comfort a fruitless person in their salvation by telling them you can't lose it.