Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

i didnt see who posted that bill
but to me it sounds like a misapplication of


1 john 4
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.


(no offense to whoever posted it)

 

[BillG]

i didnt see who posted that bill
but to me it sounds like a misapplication of


1 john 4
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.


(no offense to whoever posted it)

Ralph. Not sure why it does not have the link to it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Where in the Bible does it say "Being like Jesus casts out fear?

It doesn't say that anywhere.....and this is a prime example how the deceivers will twist the word just like the snake in the garden to fit their false theology.....same as this continued believing crap to remain saved....another lie from the pit.....the bible is clear.....when one genuinely exercises faith into the work of Christ they are instantaneously saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ eternally because the righteousness of Christ has been imputed by faith and the blood of JESUS has been applied...from that moment on a person has been born of INCORRUPTABLE seed and is dealt with as a child...whipped when wrong, rewarded for service or a lack thereof, and will not stand in the judgment of the lost, but rather the BEMA seat of Jesus.....as children go...some will be faithful and produce works of gold, silver and precious stones and some will produce works of wood, hay and stubble....BOTH have their works tried by fire and both are the saved children of GOD by faith. TO say ONE can LOSE it based upon their performance of faith is a flat lie from hell....it is JESUS that BEGINS and FINISHES all works of FAITH in a believer and when GOD sees the BLOOD (not our works) HE WILL PASS OVER US.....another lie is this crap that one is not saved until the end...the bible is also clear...SALVATION is a past COMPLETED action with present continuing result....was saved, am saved and continuing to be saved into the future BECAUSE JESUS is the ONE who began the work and JESUS will bring it to fruition....FAITH plus WORKS to get, maintain, keep or embellish or top off salvation is a lie form the devil himself and ALL who push it are not being led of the Spirit of GOD.

NOT by works of righteousness which we have DONE, BUT according to his mercy has he SAVED US <-PAST TENSE HAS SAVED US and when GOD DOES SOMETHING IT IS EVERLASTING!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where in the Bible does it say "Being like Jesus casts out fear?

Just have to love how they make stuff up

 

[Ralph-]

Paul himself said in Romans 4:5: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. "

And we know if we are justified by faith apart from works by if we then grow up into works of righteousness. If we don't, then we don't have the justification by faith that we think we have. We will be lost when Jesus comes back.

And once one is declared righteous, he cannot lose it - because it is Christ's righteousness that is imputed. If we were to lose our righteousness by failing to do good works...

You don't lose imputed righteousness by not doing works. If you don't have works, you already lost it, or you never had it to begin with.

1 Corinthians 3 is plain in regard to one not having any works to show but is saved nevertheless.

The point you're missing is the context in 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 is REWARDS, not salvation. Rewards are given on the basis of work performed. And besides, as I pointed out, if Paul is saying the disobedient person is born again he directly contradicts John who says the disobedient person is not born again.

And your threats that we'll get sick (including being stricken with cancer) for coming against your false doctrine, is something a cult leader would teach.

Right, nobody will get sick and possibly die for coming against my doctrine. Christians can become sick and possibly die for abusing and attacking and insulting and ridiculing others in the church. So don't do that. And I won't do that to you. I believe what Paul said. Let's see if you do. We'll know by how you act.

And we are, yet again, back to this false accusation. Grace is not a license to sin.

And yet you won't take the time to tell us what is making grace a license to sin.

And false or not, I'm entitled to think whatever I want about what you say. That's not lying. If it is, then you are guilty of lying too.

Yet myself, and you, and everyone else walking this earth, sins, every.....single....day. Christians struggle with the "old man" (nature)

I sin, but I do not live in sin. If I did I would not be born again and would not inherit the kingdom. Paul said so. Don't you believe what Paul said? Saying what Paul said doesn't apply to you because you are born again, despite the fact that you live in sin, is in fact making grace a license to sin, and also causes you to make Paul and John directly contradict each other. John said the person who is living in sin is not born again.

yet all of our sins have been forgiven. Past, present, and future. It's done. It's over. The sin issue is settled. If that isn't true, what Jesus did on the cross was not "finished"

If this is actually true for a person they will not be living in sin anymore, they will be growing out of it. The unchanged life shows you do not have the promises of God in salvation. John, James, and Paul all said so.

You can't be as perfect as you need to be because the verse says to be a perfect as GOD IS.

And it doesn't say "aim" to be, or just in that "next temptation". Once again, (big surprise) you are adding to the word of God.

Well, then you do not know the word of God.

Wrong. Jesus is teaching about the seriousness of sin, and the horror of hell. That if you could somehow save yourself by plucking out and eye, or cutting off a hand, it would be better to do that than to end up in hell.

But you can't. Which was His point.

You're reading comprehension is the one that is lacking. Jesus himself defines the metaphor for us. He isn't talking about actual eyes and hands. He's talking about various people in the body who cause stumbling. And read it carefully and you'll see that Jesus did not teach 'once saved always saved'-Matthew 18:6-9.

Unlike you, who teach we must maintain a certain level of holiness by our works to be saved.

It's not a certain level of sin. I explained this to you. It's a pattern of growth out of sin. Staying in your old life shows you are not born again. Growing up into Christ shows you belong to Christ.

You mean that thing you say you believe in, but don't?

I believe that weak believers can fall away and be lost, and that strong believers will not return to the world. Once saved always saved is only true for the person who grows up to that point. That's the only way to reconcile the apparent contradiction about once saved always saved in scripture.

But it doesn't matter anyway. If you get to the judgment with dead faith, having no works attached, it doesn't matter if you lost your salvation, or never had it to begin with, you're toast either way. But many will continue to hammer this meaningless doctrine that tickles the ears of the church.



I'll be back to answer the rest of your post....

 

[LightLoveHope]

What did Jesus say about the commandments?

Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Matthew 19:17-19

How is it, that those who claim to speak for God go beyond what Jesus our Lord said?
Are they not just being accusers of the brethren, workers following the enemy?

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:36-40

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

How often is it preached loving your neighbor is the entire law in which we
are fulfilled and can walk in Christ?

We should listen to Jesus, Peter, John, Paul etc as written in scripture and
those who walk like this.

How is it people find loving impossible from the heart? Maybe because Christ has not
yet entered in?

Today is the day of salvation, call upon the Lord and you will be saved.

 

[Gabriel2020]

When Jesus told his disciples that the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing when he found them sleep, He was saying that God has no use for the flesh, because it will return back to dust. His only desire was to save the spirit man in that sinful flesh. So we must worship him in truth and spirit only. If the word is not in you, you will not perform righteously.. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk. Talk has always been cheap without backing it up with works.

 

[dcontroversal]

I stand amazed at the people who cannot grasp that JESUS was born, lived and died under the LAW which ratified the NEW covenant.....and then gives most of the N.T. by PAUL which is applied to GRACE over the LAW which condemns........

The words of JESUS must be viewed in light of the above truth.......THE LAW condemns, increases SIN and MAKES NO ONE righteous before the throne because it deems ALL GUILTY because NO ONE KEEPS IT.......UNLESS you KEEP EVERY applicable LAW your WHOLE LIFE you are DEEMED GUILTY......and there is ONY ONE who did that<---JESUS and under GRACE by FAITH his righteousness is IMPUTED (put to our account) BY FAITH without the WORKS of the LAW or any DEEMED GOOD DEED by man!

 

[mailmandan]

What did Jesus say about the commandments?

Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Matthew 19:17-19

How is it, that those who claim to speak for God go beyond what Jesus our Lord said?
Are they not just being accusers of the brethren, workers following the enemy?

Whoever has perfectly obeyed ALL of the commandments, let him cast the first stone. Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37).

The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus (John 3:18).

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life?

Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. He said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:36-40

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

How often is it preached loving your neighbor is the entire law in which we
are fulfilled and can walk in Christ?

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Just have to love how they make stuff up

Make stuff up? Jesus cast out fear.

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:17-19

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

Jesus is Gods perfect love, perfect love drives out fear, Jesus in our hearts does
cast out fear, Amen.

Dear brother, I am blessed by this insight.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:54

Amen, Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to men on earth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Whoever has perfectly obeyed ALL of the commandments, let him cast the first stone.

Hi mailmandan,

Greetings to you. Your first line is spoken strangely. Jesus said this

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
John 8:7

You have added or read in a lot "perfectly obeyed ALL of the commandments"
We are not Jews, and we are free from everything except righteousness expressed through love.

You add to Jesus something He never said, so I have to stop you there.
You desire to overthrow the law, by claiming it is impossible.
It is impossible to be in Gods Kingdom unless we abide in the vine, are grafted in, and walk in
His ways. I would hope and pray you know this already in your heart to bring glory to the
King of Kings, Amen. If not, I would invite you to open up to Jesus, as He is always willing.

I know all who are in the kingdom following Jesus know this, as a spiritual reality.
Only the Lord knows who they are, praise Him, because I could not handle such knowledge.

The Lord has no problem showing people they are sinners, the problem is always walking
the road of Holiness and purity through love, which so many trip up on, on Jesus.

 

[Ariel82]

Whoever has perfectly obeyed ALL of the commandments, let him cast the first stone. Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37).

The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus (John 3:18).

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life?

Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. He said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter

yet some will swallow a camel to strain out a gnat, missing the simple truth that you don't seek to overthrow the LAW but to show that those who are born again are led by the SPIRIT and thus the LETTER does not apply because God's higher calling values MERCY over Sacrifice.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi mailmandan,

Greetings to you. Your first line is spoken strangely. Jesus said this

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
John 8:7

You have added or read in a lot "perfectly obeyed ALL of the commandments"

I was simply making a point (and not trying to create a new Bible verse) to anyone who believes that salvation may be obtained through obeying the commandments, which is the topic that you highlighted in your post.

We are not Jews, and we are free from everything except righteousness expressed through love.

We are certainly not Jews who are under the law, but Christians who are under grace. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6).

You add to Jesus something He never said, so I have to stop you there.

Again I was not adding to what Jesus said. I was simply making a point about obeying the commandments.

You desire to overthrow the law, by claiming it is impossible.

The Law was our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. We are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:24-26)

It is impossible to be in Gods Kingdom unless we abide in the vine, are grafted in, and walk in
His ways. I would hope and pray you know this already in your heart to bring glory to the
King of Kings, Amen. If not, I would invite you to open up to Jesus, as He is always willing.

We must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. To abide (Greek word "meno") simply means to remain, not to depart, to continue to be present, to be held, kept, continually. Only genuine believers have been grafted into the vine and walk in His ways.

I know all who are in the kingdom following Jesus know this, as a spiritual reality.
Only the Lord knows who they are, praise Him, because I could not handle such knowledge.

The Lord has no problem showing people they are sinners, the problem is always walking
the road of Holiness and purity through love, which so many trip up on, on Jesus.

Receiving eternal life is not based on the merits of walking the road of holiness and purity through love, although walking the road of holiness and purity through love is what we are to strive for as Christians. Believers may get tripped up at times, especially as new born babes in Christ. Christian growth is a process to reach maturity in Christ, yet man is saved by grace through faith, not works.

 

[VCO]

Where in the Bible does it say "Being like Jesus casts out fear?

1 John 4:15-19 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.


I suspect that is what he or she is refering too.

I do not know what he or she was thinking about, but my take on it is that it casts out fear, in our selves; becuase it is EVIDENCE that GOD really resides in US, via the Holy Spirit. That LOVE, is how we know, Our Salvation is SECURE in HIM.

That Fear is the FEAR of LOSING ONES SALVATION, which is Impossible.

 

[stonesoffire]

I stand amazed at the people who cannot grasp that JESUS was born, lived and died under the LAW which ratified the NEW covenant.....and then gives most of the N.T. by PAUL which is applied to GRACE over the LAW which condemns........

The words of JESUS must be viewed in light of the above truth.......THE LAW condemns, increases SIN and MAKES NO ONE righteous before the throne because it deems ALL GUILTY because NO ONE KEEPS IT.......UNLESS you KEEP EVERY applicable LAW your WHOLE LIFE you are DEEMED GUILTY......and there is ONY ONE who did that<---JESUS and under GRACE by FAITH his righteousness is IMPUTED (put to our account) BY FAITH without the WORKS of the LAW or any DEEMED GOOD DEED by man!

Im not really amazed at this Dcon. We hear this kind of thing Sunday mornings, all over the world. I guess Pastors think they need to keep their congregation under control. Not enough faith?

Works teachings are hard to escape since we are naturally inclined to work from the fall. Work to please God that is. Wasn't this part of the curse on man?

 

[Ralph-]

Where in the Bible does it say "Being like Jesus casts out fear?

"By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world."-1 John 4:17

I know the church does not teach this even though the Bible says it plainly. And because it does not teach it, people's eyes are trained to gloss right over these words and not see them.

 

[BillG]

1 John 4:15-19 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.


I suspect that is what he or she is refering too.

I do not know what he or she was thinking about, but my take on it is that it casts out fear, in our selves; becuase it is EVIDENCE that GOD really resides in US, via the Holy Spirit. That LOVE, is how we know, Our Salvation is SECURE in HIM.

That Fear is the FEAR of LOSING ONES SALVATION, which is Impossible.

Hi VCO,

I posted the above verses as part of my conflab with Phart.
I was trying to say that a believer does not heave to fear God.
By fear I mean to be frightened of him. If one is then we need to remember that we do not have to be frightened of him.

Whereas I got the impression that to tremble before God for Phart this was to be frightened off him.

That's why I posted the above verses.

 

[Ralph-]

Just have to love how they make stuff up

1 John 4:17 is not made up stuff. Only those who look like Jesus in this world can have no fear of the day of judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Make stuff up? Jesus cast out fear.

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:17-19

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

Jesus is Gods perfect love, perfect love drives out fear, Jesus in our hearts does
cast out fear, Amen.

Dear brother, I am blessed by this insight.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:54

Amen, Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to men on earth.

non of this says “live like jesus” and you will not have fear,

it would instead say

“TRUST IN JESUS” and you will not have fear

bekieve it or not. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

1. Trusts in self and our ability to live

2. Trusts in jesus to live in us and his graced and mercy.

I fear when people rely on self. And not placen it all at Gods feet.

 

[Ralph-]

non of this says “live like jesus” and you will not have fear,

it would instead say

“TRUST IN JESUS” and you will not have fear

bekieve it or not. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

1. Trusts in self and our ability to live

2. Trusts in jesus to live in us and his graced and mercy.

I fear when people rely on self. And not placen it all at Gods feet.

I knew you'd find a way to make it not say what it says.