Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Hi Ralph, I'm not trying to start another big argument, I just want to ask something. I notice you use the term "when Jesus comes back". You say it a lot. He is coming back, I'm not denying that.

But is there a difference in your opinion, between what happens to believers who are alive when Jesus comes back and what happens to believers who die before his return?

In my opinion, there is no difference between what happens to believers who are alive when Jesus comes back and those who are already dead when he comes back. Both are given new bodies and meet in the sky together.

ALL people are resurrected into bodies, both the wicked and the righteous. And we will all stand before Jesus the Judge and He will divide those who did live for Him from those who did not. Their lives serving as the evidence of whether they knew Him in salvation or not. No confession of faith will be heard at this time. Our lives will be our testimony of whether or not we knew Him in salvation in this life.

End times events can be a sticky subject, and I don't pretend to know all about it, but this is where my understanding is at this time. But one things for sure, if you live apart from Him in this life you will live apart from Him in the next. That's not in debate. Faith in the mercy and grace of Christ's forgiveness is how we fix that, now, in this age, while we still have breath, while we are still in the body of the flesh.

 

[Ralph-]

I notice you use the term "when Jesus comes back". You say it a lot. He is coming back

I'm old school. It used to be taught that you got saved so you'd be ready for the return of Christ. A settling of accounts before the Master returns. That's not taught so much today.

Thank you for your post, and the charitable way you presented it.

 

[Ralph-]

if you live apart from Him in this life you will live apart from Him in the next. That's not in debate. Faith in the mercy and grace of Christ's forgiveness is how we fix that, now, in this age, while we still have breath, while we are still in the body of the flesh.

A change of life towards holiness is how we know we have done that. If we're not changed/changing then we have to examine ourselves to see if we've really settled accounts with the Master in preparation for his return when he rewards the righteous and destroys the unrighteous.
(Just completing my thoughts)

 

[DiscipleDave]

But not all LIVE IN sin.

Those who live in sin are not saved and will not inherit the kingdom-1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10. The unchanged person still living in his sin is unsaved. His life shows that to be true. This is in contrast to the person who is saved and growing up into the image of Christ in ever increasing traits of the Spirit-2 Peter 1:5-11.

So we have to ask ourselves, "which am I?" We have to examine ourselves so we can know for sure about our calling and election. If you see in the mirror the person described in the passages in the first sentence above you are not saved and you will be burned up when Christ comes back. If you see in the mirror the person in 2 Peter 1:5-11 you are saved and have no need to fear the coming of Christ. You show by your life that you are saved and ready to meet Him, just as the others show by their life that they are NOT saved and ready to meet Him when He comes back.

Brother, i encourage you. Fret not what those who continue to live in sin say. Anyone who continues to willingly obey the enemy of Jesus Christ (practicing sin) all the while claiming with their mouths that Jesus is their Master and Lord, lack understanding of the TRUTH, no matter how much they think they know it.

There are many on this thread who claim to know the TRUTH but are devoid of any good works, which Scriptures plainly teaches us to maintain, to DO, to Have. But because these believe false doctrines which teach against any works at all, they are not given the TRUTH of Scriptures. How can anyone who continually obeys satan and live in sins, come to the knowledge of the TRUTH? Demons believe in Jesus, are they Saved? Believing is not enough, FAITH ONLY is not enough.

It seems to me, from what i have read in some of your posts, that you are not far from the Kingdom of God, i encourage you to continue to teach the Truths of Scriptures, God speed.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ralph-]

Many claim to be a Good Tree, but it is their Works that determine if they Truly are or not.
Woe to this generation of couch sitters, professing that Jesus lives in them, but they feed no hungry, they help no needy, they do not give to anyone, full of dead works even though they profess with their mouths "I am Saved"

And who are characterized by envy and strife and hatred, not by gentleness peace and love. They think they are saved but their lives deny the presence of God in them-"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him."-Titus 1:16

 

[DiscipleDave]

But once we are born again, we do not automatically become like Jesus...Are minds are renewed, and this happens by feeding on the Word of God, it is process, a journey, everyone grows at different rates...

I have been walking with our LORD for just over two years...I am now more mature than I was 6 months ago when my mind was still all over the place getting my head around what Christ has done for me, so today my life style is not the same as it was six months ago, I have grown, and I continue to run my race...I started off sitting, then standing and now I am walking, and one day God willing I shall be running...

We start off drinking milk before we can chew the meat...I am chewing the meat but still having my milk to wash it down, some are slower than others, and God knows this...As long as our heart is towards God, He is the one who directs our path, He is not going to toss us aside when we fall, backslide etc, He knows some have years of the devils lies to be squashed, traumas to deal with, many people spend their lives getting healed from God, none of this affects our walk with God, He knows who are His, only people who pretend to be Christians are the ones Jesus will say " Go away I never knew you "...xox...

All this is well said, Amen.

All that you say above is TRUE and right on. i would like to add something that i feel is left out of the TRUTHS that you gave above.

It is True it is a growing process. The problem with this generation though is the "Stop growing part" this generation accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and they are on milk. But these same are content with milk and do not desire anything other than milk. They are content with milk and want nothing else. These same do not grow, but remain on milk, remain babes. Anyone who teaches anything other than milk, they reject and cast away from them, because they love milk and not meat. These have ceased to grow, because they refuse to get off the milk. This is the problem with this generation, they are content with milk and won't even try any solid foods. And those who teach anything other than milk, are cast out from them, because they love the milk so much and choose to not eat solid foods. These remain stagnant in their Spiritual walks, claiming that they know Jesus but do not understand that if Jesus actually lived in them, they would be so full of Good Works, that it would be overflowing out of them. NO not this generation, this generation condemns any form of Good Works teachings, because they are devoid of them, and teach against them. Even though Scriptures plainly teach to maintain Good Works.

So then as long as a person is continually growing in the Lord, they are on the Right Path. As long as they are still running the race, they are on the right path. BUT if a person ceases to grow in the Lord, they are on the wrong path. If during the race they sit down by the wayside, or walk backwards, they are on the wrong path.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ralph-]

Brother, i encourage you. Fret not what those who continue to live in sin say. Anyone who continues to willingly obey the enemy of Jesus Christ (practicing sin) all the while claiming with their mouths that Jesus is their Master and Lord, lack understanding of the TRUTH, no matter how much they think they know it.

There are many on this thread who claim to know the TRUTH but are devoid of any good works, which Scriptures plainly teaches us to maintain, to DO, to Have. But because these believe false doctrines which teach against any works at all, they are not given the TRUTH of Scriptures. How can anyone who continually obeys satan and live in sins, come to the knowledge of the TRUTH? Demons believe in Jesus, are they Saved? Believing is not enough, FAITH ONLY is not enough.

It seems to me, from what i have read in some of your posts, that you are not far from the Kingdom of God, i encourage you to continue to teach the Truths of Scriptures, God speed.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Thank you for the encouragement. Not many come to the defense of the one preaching the truth. They usually stand alone like a sheep before the wolves. So your encouragement is welcome.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by Ralph-

Read my posts. This is what I've been saying. Growth OUT of sin is the sign that you are saved and will go into the kingdom when Jesus returns. No growth and living in your old life is the sign that you are not saved and will not go into the kingdom when Jesus returns-1 Corinthian 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10, Galatians 5:21.

People who are not in process do not belong to Christ. We have to examine ourselves to make sure we belong to Christ. We know if we are or not by how we live. That's called making your calling and election sure-Hebrews 6:11-12, 2 Peter 1:10. Living in your old life unchanged, not progressing toward Christ, shows you are not saved. We can not excuse that kind of life with a 'works don't matter' doctrine that says works don't matter because salvation is not by works.

I understand what you are saying, but no one, not one person here in this thread has not had a changed life..

You can't possibly know this for sure. There are many people who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and continue to live the same life of sins that they did prior to getting Saved. A fornicator who Gets Saved, and then afterwards continues to fornicate has NOT changed.

.It is God who wills us, who does the changing, because we have the Holy Spirit in us.

This is not entirely True either. God can't change us. The Holy Spirit does not change us. God and the Holy Spirit only leads us, prompts us, convicts us. They do not Make us do anything, we have to willingly choose to obey them when they try to lead us this way or that way. A person is immediately convicted of their sins when they they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, the Spirit immediately prompts them to cease from them now that they are now Saved. The choice is theirs to make, whether they continue to live in those sins or cease from them because they now have Jesus as their Savior and Lord living in them.
God/Spirit can't make a person do anything.
Likewise satan can't make a person do anything either.
Spirit and satan both try to prompt a person to do this or not do that. The choice is always up to YOU, which you will obey.
So it is True that the Holy Spirit will try to lead a person to have a changed life, a Righteous Life, but it is up the individual person what they will choose to do, who they will choose to obey and listen to, whether obeying satan and living in sin, or obeying the Spirit and cease from sin.
But this generation which loves to live in sin and be Christian too, have come up with a doctrine that you can now do both, you can be a Christian and continue to live in sin and all is well with your soul. This false doctrine is the reason there will be much weeping on the day the Books are opened and their name has been blotted out. i say blotted out because their name was written in the Book of Life the moment they accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord, but because they freely chose who they wanted to obey, either God or satan, they choose who their master is. YOUR MASTER is to whom you obey says Scriptures. So then just because a person believes and accepts Jesus as their LORD, does not mean He is their Lord. Jesus said "Why do you call me Lord and not do the things that I say?" So then many false Christians today call Jesus Lord, yet they do not do what He says, namely "Love One Another". And if a person is Truly Loving One Another, they will be full of Good Works. PERIOD! How can Love live inside a person, and that person not be full of good works?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

..If someone was in here saying " I got saved a few years back but my life is worse, I am still doing this and still living the same ", then I could understand what you are saying, but your addressing people in here who are truly walking with our LORD, some longer than others...

I can really relate to a lot of what you write, but your writing it to believers, your information would be good to those who live styles have not changed...Have you not read some of the deep testimonies people have written, most people in here have wrote them for us to see just how much God has moved in our lives, some has made me cry with sorrow and yet tears of Joy because of what God is doing in their lives and they are not where they used to be...

Some people could be offended by what you are saying because you are directing it towards people in this thread...Ii hope you understand me as I have taken time to understand you...xox...[/QUOTE]

 

[Magenta]

There are many on this thread who claim to know the TRUTH but are devoid of any good works, which Scriptures plainly teaches us to maintain, to DO, to Have. But because these believe false doctrines which teach against any works at all, they are not given the TRUTH of Scriptures. How can anyone who continually obeys satan and live in sins, come to the knowledge of the TRUTH? Demons believe in Jesus, are they Saved? Believing is not enough, FAITH ONLY is not enough.

Nobody teaches against any works at all, Dave, for we are saved to do good works. Notice the word order of that sentence? It does not say we do good works and then are saved, does it? No, Scripture teaches that works do not save, for we are saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the only way to the Father. It seems you are promoting lies of Satan while professing to know truth, and also putting on some pretense of knowing intimately the details of the lives of "many" on this thread, to say they are devoid of any good works. Is that what you consider doing a good work? Shameful. God hates lying lips, Dave. I realize you claim to be a prophet. You have just outed yourself as a false prophet. I hope you repent of your sin, Dave.

 

[Ralph-]

we are saved to do good works. Notice the word order of that sentence? It does not say we do good works and then are saved, does it? No, Scripture teaches that works do not save, for we are saved by grace through faith.

Since his posts are new and fresh and readily accessible, can you take a moment and quote the parts where he said salvation is by works, if you are suggesting he did that? If he said that I missed it.

 

[Ralph-]

It seems you are promoting lies of Satan while professing to know truth, and also putting on some pretense of knowing intimately the details of the lives of "many" on this thread, to say they are devoid of any good works. Is that what you consider doing a good work? Shameful. God hates lying lips, Dave. I realize you claim to be a prophet. You have just outed yourself as a false prophet. I hope you repent of your sin, Dave.

Some show by how they respond to the message of right living, and how they treat others in their posts who their father is. Can we know that conclusively without doubt? No, but it goes a long way toward deciding who we are going to trust as being a brother and who we are not.

 

[Rosemaryx]

All this is well said, Amen.

All that you say above is TRUE and right on. i would like to add something that i feel is left out of the TRUTHS that you gave above.

It is True it is a growing process. The problem with this generation though is the "Stop growing part" this generation accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and they are on milk. But these same are content with milk and do not desire anything other than milk. They are content with milk and want nothing else. These same do not grow, but remain on milk, remain babes. Anyone who teaches anything other than milk, they reject and cast away from them, because they love milk and not meat. These have ceased to grow, because they refuse to get off the milk. This is the problem with this generation, they are content with milk and won't even try any solid foods. And those who teach anything other than milk, are cast out from them, because they love the milk so much and choose to not eat solid foods. These remain stagnant in their Spiritual walks, claiming that they know Jesus but do not understand that if Jesus actually lived in them, they would be so full of Good Works, that it would be overflowing out of them. NO not this generation, this generation condemns any form of Good Works teachings, because they are devoid of them, and teach against them. Even though Scriptures plainly teach to maintain Good Works.

So then as long as a person is continually growing in the Lord, they are on the Right Path. As long as they are still running the race, they are on the right path. BUT if a person ceases to grow in the Lord, they are on the wrong path. If during the race they sit down by the wayside, or walk backwards, they are on the wrong path.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Hi Dave...Paul said in Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus...

This point as I have just read he is at a mature time in his race towards heaven, to think like this he must of been fully mature...I have such a long way to go , but I do know perseverance is a must, we can become stagnant, nothing runs from stagnant water, it becomes cloudy, then everything in it becomes dead, nothing can live on a dead pond...Ii was looking at a Scripture yesterday in Revelations, can not remember where it was, but it said something about the works that we have done jesus will take them into account, I wish I wrote it down now because it caught my eye , so I do know for sure that our works are important, but I know they have nothing to do with me being saved , I am saved by Gods grace alone through faith but yes they are to follow...xox...

 

[Ralph-]

I do know for sure that our works are important, but I know they have nothing to do with me being saved

You have to be more specific when you say this.

Works surely have nothing to do with being justified. That happens entirely apart from merit of work.

Works do have much to do with being saved when Jesus returns. Your works are the evidence he will use to send you to the left with the goats or to the right with the righteous. Works most certainly have a lot to do with salvation then. That's not a works gospel. It's works being the evidence that prove or disprove that you are a disciple of Christ-John 15:8.

Justification is by faith apart from works. Salvation when Jesus returns is not by a faith that is alone. You will be saved then by a faith that has works attached that prove the genuineness of the faith that produced them.

Don't get hung up on where you're at now. Take comfort and assurance from how Christ has changed you and is changing you. But for sure, don't take comfort in some kind of works less, fruitless salvation when Jesus comes back. No such thing exists.

 

[preacher4truth]

The funny thing about the workers is this: Here we are, we heard the Gospel and were subsequently saved. We have the witness of the Spirit of God within us confirming, the Word confirming, the release from guilt of sin, fellowship with God, the cleansing from sin, the sanctifying work ongoing, firm belief in the Gospel, a cleansed conscience, love for God, purifying from sin, love of the brothers, security in Christ &c.

Then these suckers come along, just like the Judaizers in Galatians and Paul's day and tell us all we better keep the Law.

Too.

Uh-huh. Same heresy repackaged.

Notice these folks don't bother with looking to convert lost people to the Gospel and to Christ. It appears all too obvious they really just do not believe in the transforming power of the Gospel at all!

They are instead busy bandying about believers attempting to ensnare them with something they must add to the finished work of Christ. To them the Gospel and finished work is not enough. They have many many ways to say they do believe it to be enough, yet, what they preach proves this to be untrue.

 

[Rosemaryx]

You have to be more specific when you say this.

Works surely have nothing to do with being justified. That happens entirely apart from merit of work.

Works do have much to do with being saved when Jesus returns. Your works are the evidence he will use to send you to the left with the goats or to the right with the righteous. Works most certainly have a lot to do with salvation then. That's not a works gospel. It's works being the evidence that prove or disprove that you are a disciple of Christ-John 15:8.

Justification is by faith apart from works. Salvation when Jesus returns is not by a faith that is alone. You will be saved then by a faith that has works attached that prove the genuineness of the faith that produced them.

Hi Ralph...I understand that I am saved by Gods grace alone through faith...When God called me I was a waste, a drunk, a hermit, and plenty of other stuff that was all wrong with me, going out to places I should not of gone, cursing talk and gossiping, as you know that drunkards can be very destructive, but thanks be to God these behaviors have stopped, not my own doing but His...

I have the Holy Spirit in me for sure, I am changed and changing still, I have His strength in me to turn away from my past life, in fact my past life is becoming dimmer and dimmer...

On days if I am tempted to drink, which can pop up, I will avoid going past a certain pub, especially in the summer as it is like magnet sometimes seeing people sitting outside in the sunshine, laughing and quenching their thirst, but I know I have to do my part which is avoid these situations, and put Gods word to action, and that is how I work if you can call that a work...

We should watch our walk and be vigilant always, it`s an instruction, we must not look back but press on...I better stop as I feel as if I am waffling lol...xox...

 

[BillG]

I was being extreme to make my point.

This teaching has been represented right here in this thread. It's becoming a very common belief in the church. And most Christians seem unawares that it's creeping in. But that is how it comes into the church

"For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."-Jude 1:4

Going to the extreme will not make your point. In fact it negates your point.

I have never ever met a believer who walks in the extreme that you use to make your point.

If such people did then they are not believers.

Any believers who believe it's ok to sin and use is as an excuse then they should be corrected with Romans 6.

There is a difference between those who use grace as a license to sin and those who have a particular sin trait that they hate and ask release.

It's easy to judge people by their works, God judges people by their hearts.
What is truly inside of them.

To quantify a level of works for evidence of salvation is judging and it's wrong.
To qualify good works is also judging but it's correct.

These are good works

Matthew 25:34-40
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Works done for Jesus because he is in us and we walk in love for him and love for others.

With regards to the flesh. that most people who believe works save the focus is on the flesh and not on the verses above.

With regards to the flesh

Galatians 5:16-25
Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

As the Holy Spirit increases in us our flesh decreases.

As the Holy Spirit increases in us our love increases.

The love we have towards others increases.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Works do have much to do with being saved when Jesus returns. Your works are the evidence he will use to send you to the left with the goats or to the right with the righteous. Works most certainly have a lot to do with salvation then. That's not a works gospel. It's works being the evidence that prove or disprove that you are a disciple of Christ-John 15:8.

Justification is by faith apart from works. Salvation when Jesus returns is not by a faith that is alone. You will be saved then by a faith that has works attached that prove the genuineness of the faith that produced them.

So will you please tell me what works I MUST do to stop Jesus from throwing me into hell when he returns! Because I'm scared. Quitting smoking isn't a WORK surely? Stopping fornication and boozing isn't a work. Those things are changed behaviour.

Do I have to go to Sudan and preach the gospel to the militants there? Or do I have to find some vagrants and feed them? What WORK shall I DO to stop your Jesus from throwing me into the pit with the devil?

 

[gb9]

So will you please tell me what works I MUST do to stop Jesus from throwing me into hell when he returns! Because I'm scared. Quitting smoking isn't a WORK surely? Stopping fornication and boozing isn't a work. Those things are changed behaviour.

Do I have to go to Sudan and preach the gospel to the militants there? Or do I have to find some vagrants and feed them? What WORK shall I DO to stop your Jesus from throwing me into the pit with the devil?

believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. don't pay any attention to the fountains of mis-information. just believe.

 

[dcontroversal]

Does not Matt 25 indicate there is some role for the corporal works of mercy in determining whether we are in the end saved or not. I agree that faith is the beginning of salvation but if you do not work you will not continue to be saved.

False....verb tense, the verbiage used, the promises if Christ all prove that salvation is eternally given at the moment of belief....verb tense proves a present continuing result based upon a past completed action.....it cannit be gained nor lost by what one does or doea not do....any work or fruit is the direct result of the salvation and born again state one already possesses in Christ by faith. Study the word translated in <-->In Christ

 

[dcontroversal]

What kind of belief is "this?" Empty profession of belief. In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims -- *key word* he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

One would think the workers for only have 1 verse and no context in their bible....