Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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Why do y9ou keep demanding ANYONE in CC is teaching it is ok to live in sin?

A few people are so out to focus on performance, they can not see reality of what true faith does to a person.
Those who embellish salvation with works and or law keeping cannot do anything but point to sin.....the whole concept of outbounding grace alludes them because salvation in part or whole is gained, kept or maintained by what they do or don't do......we rightly believe it is based upon Christ and his work on our behalf.......
 
Dec 28, 2016
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John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Among other Scriptures that could be used here I chose John 3:36. Scripture teaches clearly that the one who is believing (in Christ) has eternal life, and the one who is not believing does not have eternal life. Hence I conclude that if one ceases to believe then he does not have eternal life (that is, loses salvation) - This is point # 1 above.
But you're misusing John 3:36.

The contrast is between the converted and unconverted and none else. Your usage isn't true to the sense of the text or its context. What you are practicing is classic eisegesis and making the Scripture teach something not there.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Hey bro, you may not have been here. Fran and another poster ( I can not remember his nic) would continually say their freind “Ralph” would come into CC and set me and DC straight. Then all of a sudden, this guy “Ralph” shows up. They even pretty much admitted it was not a real person. But someone they made up. That is why people think it is fran (or that other person) and Ralph are one and the same.

Pretty much, they made their bed, now they have to sleep in it.
And the verbiage employed and sayings used seem all too clear...........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It is? So God needs proof we had true faith? Not sure where you get this view we must prove our faith. But it is a dangerous view. And states emphatically God is not smart enough to know who has real faith vs those who do not.
Again.....points to self......Satanism does the same thing....I, I, I, I, I, constantly points to self.....Like the plenteous in number that gets cast...I did this, I did that etc.........
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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And your point is?
I say we can Reconcile grace with the law.
Go to the OT laws and post them, it can be done.

If you find them in the OT then post them.
You will find them.

You serve no purpose just quoting Bible verses above with my response to a post which I responded to a precious sister in Jesus who was delving into the OT and trying to reconcile it to the NT.

You post many verses about obedience but seem to lack verses about faith which leads to obedience.
I did not maen to interrupt your convo, I simply wanted to post Scripture I felt relevant and promoting the ideas therin.

For me, I ould not seek to do the will of one I did not believe in, and true faith does. Nobody is perfect but we are called to do His will.



Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

faith and works:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]


 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I really don't know; He might be sitting or standing! LOL! :eek:
Sorry I can't follow your questions here - you have a series of "if" questions here that has gotten me "lost"
Gave me a chuckle.
Ok so I will be blunt.

Are we saved when we believe or when Jesus says "Good and faithful servant"
My definition of salvation is the same as yours.

The difference we have is that you and me disagree that one can lose salvation.

You can quote verses that we can and I can quote verses that we can't.

That's the only difference I see between us.
To me he is the author and pefector of our faith and he will lose none who had been given to him.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Those who believes in the Son has eternal life,but they must have the proper perspective of God,and His kingdom,for this to happen,or else their belief does not count.

The Lord knows them that are His having this seal,let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God is not mocked for whatever a person sows that shall they reap,and tells the saints to not be deceived by that.

Paul said awake to righteousness,and sin not,but some have not the knowledge of God,and he speaks that to their shame.

Jesus said whatever is in a person's heart that is what will come out,so if they speak sin,and do sin,then that is what is in their heart.

The person that does not do righteousness is not of God.

Lay aside every weight of sin that does so easily beset us.

Abstain from fleshy lusts that war against the soul.

Out of faith,hope,and charity,charity is the greatest,and charity is greater than faith,and faith works by love,and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul said that love does not think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit,and is not selfish,and not arrogant,and not unkind,and only goes by their needs,and not their wants,and helps the poor and needy if possible.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains,but if he did not have love he is nothing,and if a person believes that God blesses with money,and material things,for their wants,withdraw yourself from them,and they have erred from the faith,having food and clothing,be content.

James said if they do not have charity then their faith is dead.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them,so let us not love in word only,but in deed and in truth.

The early Church had all things common,and shared,and sold all their things that was not a necessity,and gave to those that were in need,for that is love.

Love not the world,or the things in the world,if any person loves the world,or the things in the world,the love of the Father is not in them.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,the laws of love,moral laws.

If a person hates sin,and does not want sin,then by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and show the ways of the Spirit,and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able,and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

A Spirit led life will not sin,so they are not under the law,which the law cannot touch them for prosecution,but if they sin,and hold unto sin,then they are under the law,and the law can prosecute them,until they repent and are led of the Spirit.

Our belief does not count unless we have the proper perspective of God,and His kingdom,which God hates sin,and says sin separates us from Him,so for a person to hold unto sin thinking they are alright with God would give them an improper perspective of God,which by the Spirit they can abstain from sin if they do not want sin,and God's kingdom is love,so to go by your wants,enjoying money,and material things,and not caring about the poor and needy,would give a person the improper perspective of God's kingdom.

With the improper perspective of God and His Kingdom a person would be asserting their own ways,and authority,which is why God said to obey is better than sacrifice,for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,and stubbornness is as iniquity,and idolatry.

Which the Bible says all our thoughts are to be to the obedience of Christ until are obedience is fulfilled,so we can revenge all disobedience,and Jesus said why call Him Lord if you do not do what He says,and if a person does not obey Jesus' commands then they do not love Him,and Jesus told His disciples to go out and teach people all that He commanded them.

We must have the proper perspective of God,and His kingdom,for our belief,love,and faith,to apply.

Which the Bible said some have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,which there are millions of people that hold unto sin,and believe the prosperity Gospel,and think they are right with God.

But then their belief does not count.

Those that believe in the Son has eternal life,but not all have the proper belief.

It should be a given when a person confesses Christ to abstain from sin,for they repent of their sins,and should be understood that they can receive the Spirit to abstain from sins,why would it take so long to understand that,and how can many people not come to that truth,but confess Christ,but do not truly repent,and believe they receive the Spirit,but do not abstain from sins.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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But you're misusing John 3:36.

The contrast is between the converted and unconverted and none else. Your usage isn't true to the sense of the text or its context. What you are practicing is classic eisegesis and making the Scripture teach something not there.
You may argue context if you like from John 3:36. So just negate the verse I gave and look at my conclusion (dark print):

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Among other Scriptures that could be used here I chose John 3:36. Scripture teaches clearly that the one who is believing (in Christ) has eternal life, and the one who is not believing does not have eternal life. Hence I conclude that if one ceases to believe then he does not have eternal life (that is, loses salvation) - This is point # 1 above.

Do you have arguments with my conclusion?

 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Romans
Chapter 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.



pretty sure we have all heard this.....

but to those who wish to deny the truth

maybe read it slowly
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You do not know what I believe about eternal security because I have not shared it and I'm not going to so that you and others stay on topic.
Sure you have....you do not believe in eternal security....many of your posts reek of lost salvation...just another cake taker.....
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, “Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Yah and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Yah shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether righteous or whether evil.”[/FONT]
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You may argue context if you like from John 3:36. So just negate the verse I gave and look at my conclusion (dark print):

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Among other Scriptures that could be used here I chose John 3:36. Scripture teaches clearly that the one who is believing (in Christ) has eternal life, and the one who is not believing does not have eternal life. Hence I conclude that if one ceases to believe then he does not have eternal life (that is, loses salvation) - This is point # 1 above.

Do you have arguments with my conclusion?

I think that's the issue. You used one verse to conclude that one can lose their salvation when in fact that it's not point of the verse. It's not talking about losing salvation, it's talking about those refusing to believe.
The verb translated has is in the present tense. The one who believes has eternal life as a present possession. Likewise, the one who refuses to believe on Christ has the wrath of God abiding on him or her as a present reality.

John 5:24
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Gave me a chuckle.
Ok so I will be blunt.

Are we saved when we believe or when Jesus says "Good and faithful servant"
My definition of salvation is the same as yours.

The difference we have is that you and me disagree that one can lose salvation.

You can quote verses that we can and I can quote verses that we can't.

That's the only difference I see between us.
To me he is the author and pefector of our faith and he will lose none who had been given to him.
Hey! I like your good sense of humor!

I wish I had more time to dialogue, but must go now . . .
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Of course, because, yet again, you're making the mistake of classic eisegesis. The text is talking of the converted and unconverted. You're misusing the text bro.
So you can keep throwing the "eisegesis" argument around, or you can answer my question:

I believe Scripture teaches that the one believing in Christ has eternal life, and the one not believing in Christ does not have eternal life.

Do you agree or disagree?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Hey! I like your good sense of humor!

I wish I had more time to dialogue, but must go now . . .
If ever you meet my kids tell them will you that I have a sense of humour.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Agreed!

But I dare you to find one person on CC who will say they agree with all three of your points.

That is: I do not think you will find one person on CC who will say they believe all three points:
(1)believes their salvation can be lost, (2) believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, and (3) does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation

You can impose these beliefs on others - that is - say they believe them -- but then I would say you are becoming the "legalist"! LOL!
All three points she stated are correct.......I.E. her point about legalist......
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Very interesting. My thoughts are that one cannot "undo" what God Himself has sealed. Can one lose faith and hope in earthly gatherings, doctrines, etc? Yes. But I truly believe if one is born again that they will not depart from that.
Amen.....a child by birth will always be a child by birth
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I impose no belief on anyone. The scriptures tell us about salvation. The scriptures tell us about doing works/fruits after becoming saved. The scriptures tells us about the power of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation and after salvation.

There is nothing "legalistic" about those things. They are scriptural and God-spoken. One can either accept them or not.
Amen and I agree.....