Not By Works

[willybob]

More lies here....no one argues in favor of sin....so...since you lie and embellish how does that work out for your salvation "cake taker"

in your mind none can ever stop sinning the vile sins of the flesh that will result in eternal damnation...That my fried is arguing in favour of sin. Whereas the forgone conclusion the text is righteousness...you CONTINUALLY argue that the forgone conclusion is one must give into sin... that's a lie because Paul said Jesus always gives us a way of escape..

if their is still guile in the heart, and one perceives they cannot stop sinning by crucifying the flesh with its lustful passions and desires in a godly season of sorrow, no matter how long it takes, then they wont...vile sins of the flesh that disqualify one form the kingdom are not something of the new man's character, but rather the baggage of the old man who is still in rebellion to God..

 

[dcontroversal]

in your mind none can ever stop sinning the vile sins of the flesh that will result in eternal damnation...That my fried is arguing in favour of sin. Whereas the forgone conclusion the text is righteousness...you CONTINUALLY argue that the forgone conclusion is one must give into sin... that's a lie because Paul said Jesus always gives us a way of escape..

if their is still guile in the heart, and one perceives they cannot stop sinning by crucifying the flesh with its lustful passions and desires in a godly season of sorrow, no matter how long it takes, then they wont...vile sins of the flesh that disqualify one form the kingdom are not something of the new man's character, but rather the baggage of the old man who is still in rebellion to God..

Lie upon lie pal....and all sin is covered under the blood...wake up spongebob...go peddle your lies and diatribe some place else....the bolded above are lies that I have never said nor implied....and I am not your friend pal....!

 

[Grace777x70]

in your mind none can ever stop sinning the vile sins of the flesh that will result in eternal damnation...That my fried is arguing in favour of sin. Whereas the forgone conclusion the text is righteousness...you CONTINUALLY argue that the forgone conclusion is one must give into sin... that's a lie because Paul said Jesus always gives us a way of escape..

if their is still guile in the heart, and one perceives they cannot stop sinning by crucifying the flesh with its lustful passions and desires in a godly season of sorrow, no matter how long it takes, then they wont...vile sins of the flesh that disqualify one form the kingdom are not something of the new man's character, but rather the baggage of the old man who is still in rebellion to God..

Outbursts of anger are in the list of the works of the flesh. So, someone is born-again but from time to time they still have these "outbursts of anger".

Let's say they died that night they did the last outburst of anger. In your religion would this person go to hell?

What about gluttony which is a sin. What if some has been over eating all their life. Then they die of a heart attack because the body has been abused with the over-eating thing which is really lasciviousness ( which means "without restraint" in the Greek )

If your religion would this Christian go to hell because of this work of the flesh they have done for years?

 

[willybob]

Luther's faith-alone magical-transfer mumbo-jumbo sorcery has put to sleep 100s and 100s and 100s of millions over the centuries....

Oh,and it was Jesus that said "while men slept", the wicked one came in and sowed the tares. Or as the apostle Jude said, "they crept in unawares", it was all done by stealth, and after 500 years we can see the most rebellious generation ever, they absolutely hate holiness, and will argue at every opportunity with utter foolishness to defend sin...."Faith" which means steadfast faithfulness to God cannot be separated from good works proceeding out of a heart of sincerity..Again; the two are INSEPARABLE..just as unbelief/disobedience and sin are inseparable...

 

[Magenta]

Luther's faith-alone magical-transfer mumbo-jumbo sorcery has put to sleep 100s and 100s and 100s of millions over the centuries....

Do you have anything to back up this assertion of yours, or is it something you just made up?

 

[FranC]

Hey Fran, No one states that we are not to do works after salvation...the premise is simple....

Before God men are saved and justified by faith void of any works <--Paul, Romans
Before MEN the invisible faith that saves and justifies before GOD void of works is SEEN by MEN in our works

The whole key to JAMES is SHOW ME YOUR FAITH......

I, EG, Mailmandan, ETC....have never denied that one who is saved will produce fruit and or works.....the contention is and has been do the works save us or keep us saved and the answer is NO


any work or fruit that is produced is the direct result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in JESUS

even nature teaches this....AN apple tree is an apple tree from the day it sprouts from seed (spiritual birth and salvation)
after a period of GROWTH and maturity it finally produces....it may only be one apple or it may be an abundance....but the fruit is the result...not the source!

Your first sentence is perfect. As perfect could be.

We are justified by faith void of any works. It is totally a work of God. Perfect. We are saved by grace through faith. OK.

The last two paragraphs.... Perfect.

Where does the problem come in? Here. You said:

I, EG, Mailmandan, ETC....have never denied that one who is saved will produce fruit and or works.....the contention is and has been do the works save us or keep us saved and the answer is NO

You ask do the works save us, NO. And this is right.
You ask do the works keep us saved, NO. And this is wrong.

THIS is where the big misunderstanding is.

You say that you and EG and Mailman all agree that after being saved, our faith PRODUCES good works.

Now, let's say we're saved and born again.
But we decide not to do works.
We're nasty on the job.
We treat our family badly.
We disrespect people, our parents.
We refuse to help the poor.
We're arrogant and prideful.

Do we CONTINUE to be saved?
What do you think of 1 Corinthians 9:27?

1 Corinthians 9:27New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 but I [a]discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul is running the race and is saying that even HE could be disqualified if he does not do his job and preach the gospel and stay alert and live a sloppy life.

What is wrong with saying that we are to do our part once we're saved? Are we not responsible persons? Can we not accept the responsibility that comes with belonging to the Kingdom?

Are there any responsibilities in belonging to the Kingdom?
If the tree itself makes us produce the good fruit, which is works, why not accept the fact that works are a given if we are born again?

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you have anything to back up this assertion of yours, or is it something you just made up?

An accurate description--->Bloviated diatribe.....

 

[willybob]

They have sought to strip man of any natural ability to obey God, even though God clearly told Cain he had this ability within himself…It seems in their twisted minds that stopping sin is the worst sin of all.

I have to ask: how did Zeccias do all those good works, even before he was saved? Why didn’t Jesus say to him Zeccias, don’t you know that it is my righteousness that is supposed to do that for you? Slow down, your making me look bad! But no; rather Jesus said to him, today salvation has come to your house…Yes, AFTER Zeccias did ALL his good works he was received by Jesus and saved…The first works were obedience to the truth in repentance bringing forth DEEDS worthy of repentance…

 

[dcontroversal]

Your first sentence is perfect. As perfect could be.

We are justified by faith void of any works. It is totally a work of God. Perfect. We are saved by grace through faith. OK.

The last two paragraphs.... Perfect.

Where does the problem come in? Here. You said:

I, EG, Mailmandan, ETC....have never denied that one who is saved will produce fruit and or works.....the contention is and has been do the works save us or keep us saved and the answer is NO

You ask do the works save us, NO. And this is right.
You ask do the works keep us saved, NO. And this is wrong.

THIS is where the big misunderstanding is.

You say that you and EG and Mailman all agree that after being saved, our faith PRODUCES good works.

Now, let's say we're saved and born again.
But we decide not to do works.
We're nasty on the job.
We treat our family badly.
We disrespect people, our parents.
We refuse to help the poor.
We're arrogant and prideful.

Do we CONTINUE to be saved?
What do you think of 1 Corinthians 9:27?

1 Corinthians 9:27New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 but I [a]discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul is running the race and is saying that even HE could be disqualified if he does not do his job and preach the gospel and stay alert and live a sloppy life.

What is wrong with saying that we are to do our part once we're saved? Are we not responsible persons? Can we not accept the responsibility that comes with belonging to the Kingdom?

Are there any responsibilities in belonging to the Kingdom?
If the tree itself makes us produce the good fruit, which is works, why not accept the fact that works are a given if we are born again?

Fran, Works do not keep us saved.....salvation is a once for all act....Paul covers this in Galatians....OH foolish Galatians...having begun in the spirit (saved by faith) are you now made complete (perfect by works)....who hath BEWITCHED YOU....

FAITH pus works to keep salvation is false...a gospel of a different kind, no power to save and is double cursed...

The works produced are the result of JESUS in you by faith and salvation...HE is the one who does the works and is exactly why they do not help, add to and or facilitate salvation

 

[Magenta]

An accurate description--->Bloviated diatribe.....

Bloviate: to speak pompously.

Diatribe: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism.

Yes, I see you are right again

 

[dcontroversal]

Luther's faith-alone magical-transfer mumbo-jumbo sorcery has put to sleep 100s and 100s and 100s of millions over the centuries....

Oh,and it was Jesus that said "while men slept", the wicked one came in and sowed the tares. Or as the apostle Jude said, "they crept in unawares", it was all done by stealth, and after 500 years we can see the most rebellious generation ever, they absolutely hate holiness, and will argue at every opportunity with utter foolishness to defend sin...."Faith" which means steadfast faithfulness to God cannot be separated from good works proceeding out of a heart of sincerity..Again; the two are INSEPARABLE..just as unbelief/disobedience and sin are inseparable...

Nice twist and embellishment of scriptures to hang your invalid point upon.......Listen SPONGEBOB....The bible teaches faith dai grace and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ upon all who genuinely believe....Your obsession with Luther borders upon fanaticism and professional help.

 

[dcontroversal]

Bloviate: to speak pompously.

Diatribe: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism.

Yes, I see you are right again

I try to be right in what I say....have I failed and do I fail...you bet....exactly why I need Jesus and trust his finished work and faith........

 

[dcontroversal]

Your first sentence is perfect. As perfect could be.

We are justified by faith void of any works. It is totally a work of God. Perfect. We are saved by grace through faith. OK.

The last two paragraphs.... Perfect.

Where does the problem come in? Here. You said:

I, EG, Mailmandan, ETC....have never denied that one who is saved will produce fruit and or works.....the contention is and has been do the works save us or keep us saved and the answer is NO

You ask do the works save us, NO. And this is right.
You ask do the works keep us saved, NO. And this is wrong.

THIS is where the big misunderstanding is.

You say that you and EG and Mailman all agree that after being saved, our faith PRODUCES good works.

Now, let's say we're saved and born again.
But we decide not to do works.
We're nasty on the job.
We treat our family badly.
We disrespect people, our parents.
We refuse to help the poor.
We're arrogant and prideful.

Do we CONTINUE to be saved?
What do you think of 1 Corinthians 9:27?

1 Corinthians 9:27New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 but I [a]discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul is running the race and is saying that even HE could be disqualified if he does not do his job and preach the gospel and stay alert and live a sloppy life.

What is wrong with saying that we are to do our part once we're saved? Are we not responsible persons? Can we not accept the responsibility that comes with belonging to the Kingdom?

Are there any responsibilities in belonging to the Kingdom?
If the tree itself makes us produce the good fruit, which is works, why not accept the fact that works are a given if we are born again?

To your question about Paul....he is not speaking of losing salvation, but rather becoming unusable in the ministry....just like many have done......and the answer to your question is answered by the bible...

The Corinthian brother who was a fornicator....Paul said to cast him out for the destruction of the FLESH that the spirit may be saved in the Day of Christ.......

The Corinthian letter...

Some had works of gold, silver and precious stones<----FAITHFUL
Some had works of wood, hay and stubble<---Unfaithful

Both were saved.........

 

[BillG]

They have sought to strip man of any natural ability to obey God, even though God clearly told Cain he had this ability within himself…It seems in their twisted minds that stopping sin is the worst sin of all.

I have to ask: how did Zeccias do all those good works, even before he was saved? Why didn’t Jesus say to him Zeccias, don’t you know that it is my righteousness that is supposed to do that for you? Slow down, your making me look bad! But no; rather Jesus said to him, today salvation has come to your house…Yes, AFTER Zeccias did ALL his good works he was received by Jesus and saved…The first works were obedience to the truth in repentance bringing forth DEEDS worthy of repentance…

You missed out the rest of the story

Luke 19:9


And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;

Zacchaeus was saved as he was a son of Abraham

this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham: Zacchaeus was a child of Abraham by descent (a Jew); now he demonstrated faith like Abraham’s

His works came as a result of his faith which was demonstrated by his works.

We know that Abraham was considered righteous by faith.


Genesis 15:6


And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Please consider the whole part of this scripture before posting what you did.

Works did not save him, his faith did.

 

[willybob]

if sin is not the major issue with the saving of the soul, then why did Jesus say to go to GREAT extremes to sever sin from ones life??? "ie" pluck out the eye, and cut of the hand. Take whatever measures possible to remove and restrain from evil thoughts, and evil deeds, because its better to enter the kingdom with one eye and hand than to be cast into hell keeping both...We are to keep a single eye on Christ, having two eyes is liken to serving two masters...

 

[FranC]

If I may, I am confused.

If faith (true) always produces works, Like DCON and yeah, all of us say and agree with.

Then how can someone have true faith in God, and never have works?

and why do people keep asking about it, as if it is something that will not happen..

As for james, He spoke to people who believed God yet had not yet repented and come to true faith, They thought because they believed they were ok.. James is letting them know. It take more tham mental agreement, it takes true faith in God..

Test your faith, If you claim you have faith, But you have no works,, Then most likely your faith is dead, and you need to do some soul searching.

EXACTLY!

This is my Whole point. What is the argument about anyway?
If we all agree that works will follow being saved by faith alone,
then where is the difference? §What are we talking about here?

If we don't do the works, are you saying the person is not saved?

 

[willybob]

You missed out the rest of the story

Luke 19:9


And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;

Zacchaeus was saved as he was a son of Abraham

this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham: Zacchaeus was a child of Abraham by descent (a Jew); now he demonstrated faith like Abraham’s

His works came as a result of his faith which was demonstrated by his works.

We know that Abraham was considered righteous by faith.


Genesis 15:6


And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Please consider the whole part of this scripture before posting what you did.

Works did not save him, his faith did.

No my friend, he became Abraham's seed by faith, for ALL Israel is not of Israel...He was already of Israel, "ie" Abraham's seed by genetics....Keep arguing in favour of sin so others can see and observe the silly rebellion and how foolish it is.

He turn away from evil and became a saved soul...very simple understanding (bible 101)

 

[FranC]

Because we still listen to men, and think they can not do wrong..

If you believe God put that pastor in charge over you, It would be hard to believe that pastor could be wrong.. It is a viscous circle. and one of many reasons I do not agree with a one pastor church..

Hey EG,
Any man could be wrong!

No disagreement there.

This is a Whole different thread though.

 

[blue_ladybug]

We do works before AND after we're saved. To me, good works is helping people. Whether it's volunteering somewhere,mowing someone's lawn, etc... Those are works. Are they needed FOR salvation? NO. Are they needed to KEEP salvation? NO. However, we are to continue to do good works, because it is a command of God. NOT because we are hoping to maintain or receive salvation.

EXACTLY!

This is my Whole point. What is the argument about anyway?
If we all agree that works will follow being saved by faith alone,
then where is the difference? §What are we talking about here?

If we don't do the works, are you saying the person is not saved?

 

[dcontroversal]

if sin is not the major issue with the saving of the soul, then why did Jesus say to go to GREAT extremes to sever sin from ones life??? "ie" pluck out the eye, and cut of the hand. Take whatever measures possible to remove and restrain from evil thoughts, and evil deeds, because its better to enter the kingdom with one eye and hand than to be cast into hell keeping both...We are to keep a single eye on Christ, having two eyes is liken to serving two masters...

That is where you miss the mark pal and have gone to seed....sin is not the issue...JESUS is the PROPITIATION for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD....that debt has been settled and paid in full.....the issue is FAITH.....this is what you fail to see because you have been blinded by going to seed on sin........