Not By Works

[Hizikyah]

Exodus 20


6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Until that written in stone is written in our hearts it will seem a burden not a delight.

You can not write it yourself.. only by believing First..

1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]


Psalm 25:8-10, “Righteous and upright is יהוה: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. All the paths of יהוה are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.”

 

[loveme1]

Colossians 1

3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:



This is such a lovely Piece of how they pray for believers to grow and to walk worthy of the Lord.

 

[joefizz]

This thread seems to wane for a bit but then comes back to life, over and over. Must be really important is how I see it.

Yep I suppose so because it is apart of judgement day,just like I think it was a parable of Jesus's of a gentile and a pharisee,the gentile admitting his sin and being forgiven his sin and the pharisee declaring a bunch of reasons that he should have forgiveness instead of confessing sin,and the same shall continue to happen,people declaring their greatness not only in works but of themselves,it's always been the same story since the beginning"make excuses to hide one's sins as if God can be fooled,and then declare how they have done right by God in order to not suffer any punishment because many believe that if they feign innocence then they can just wait until it's convenient for them to seek getting saved or they can look good to others for so many years as if God is a respector to persons.
And lo and behold we who believe that being saved is through Jesus and not boasting of works but still doing works of faith somehow aren't doing right because we don't believe in "hiding from God" yet they declare all they can that this is foolishness,thinking that once sin is taken away through Jesus that we never sin,we never say things we don't mean,how strange a thing Jesus is the way the truth and the light but perfection is more important sounds awfully familiar too,how many people have come here focusing upon 1 particular thing we supposedly must focus on above Jesus because this is the truth or that is the truth,it's like saying "be as we are because our way is perfect" instead of seek Jesus who did what no person even on this earth today can do,die willingly for those who despised him,take the keys of hell from satan,exit hell and resurrect.
Now It's strange I don't see where Jesus died for the "perfect" instead he died for the sinful,even the thief on the cross who spoke well of Jesus andand believed in him entered unto paradise being "far less than perfect" and was "humble" admitting that he was getting what he deserved and yet when he could have died in his sins,he was given paradise,not because he was perfect and deserved it but because he was "honest" had "faith" and humbled himself to Jesus.

 

[joefizz]

This whole topic and thread reminds me of what one of my teachers in school said"I've got lies and I've got truths which would you prefer"?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, Fleetwood Mac had a song with lyrics "Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies...."

 

[joefizz]

Well, Fleetwood Mac had a song with lyrics "Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies...."

I still say that one song,"Lord it's hard to be humble when your perfect in every way" fits some of the ideals put here,hilarious song I can't take it seriously.

 

[loveme1]

This whole topic and thread reminds me of what one of my teachers in school said"I've got lies and I've got truths which would you prefer"?

Titus 3

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


Whether we share verse 5 or verse 8 we know both are true.. yet in place we learn that Faith leads to those that believe to be careful to maintain good works.. and if you want to know what good works are then you will find the Foundation is the Lord’s Testament.

Not to be accused of deceit:

Matthew 7

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


But Let no man bear False witness that His own work saved Him.. it is saved unto not saved by.. yet when we come before the Lord who saved us then let Him judge us by what we did under Grace at Liberty.

Again:

2 Corinthians 5

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



James 2

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

 

[joefizz]

Titus 3

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


Whether we share verse 5 or verse 8 we know both are true.. yet in place we learn that Faith leads to those that believe to be careful to maintain good works.. and if you want to know what good works are then you will find the Foundation is the Lord’s Testament.

Not to be accused of deceit:

Matthew 7

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


But Let no man bear False witness that His own work saved Him.. it is saved unto not saved by.. yet when we come before the Lord who saved us then let Him judge us by what we did under Grace at Liberty.

Again:

2 Corinthians 5

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



James 2

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Well all but the maintaining good works is true,we are to do right for God but to call works that we do ourselves "good works" is not accurate because any work we do ourselves is not "good" because let me put it to you this way if God leads you to do something then you should do it but if you decide to do something yourself without being called/lead to do something then you shouldn't do it concerning doing something for God/Jesus,I think that has been some of the confusion here,I've been in the middle of such aa circumstance deciding to do something because I in my mind thought I was doing what God wanted of me but I ended up in a mess,so when you decide to do "works" for God in order for them to be "good works" God/Jesus must have a say in the matter,for instance say you see someone in need of help while driving(hypothetical car)because it appears they have a flat tire what would be the best idea when considering the situation...
A.Go ahead and help them and take a risk that they are pretending and trying to ambush you with some friends you didn't see.
B.Drive off and not bother to help them for fear they may be putting on and hoping to rob you and miss a possible opportunity to do right by God by not helping them
C.Seek God's council through Jesus to learn what is best to do concerning the situation then act accordingly
Which is the "Best answer" overall?

 

[loveme1]

Well all but the maintaining good works is true,we are to do right for God but to call works that we do ourselves "good works" is not accurate because any work we do ourselves is not "good" because let me put it to you this way if God leads you to do something then you should do it but if you decide to do something yourself without being called/lead to do something then you shouldn't do it concerning doing something for God/Jesus,I think that has been some of the confusion here,I've been in the middle of such aa circumstance deciding to do something because I in my mind thought I was doing what God wanted of me but I ended up in a mess,so when you decide to do "works" for God in order for them to be "good works" God/Jesus must have a say in the matter,for instance say you see someone in need of help while driving(hypothetical car)because it appears they have a flat tire what would be the best idea when considering the situation...
A.Go ahead and help them and take a risk that they are pretending and trying to ambush you with some friends you didn't see.
B.Drive off and not bother to help them for fear they may be putting on and hoping to rob you and miss a possible opportunity to do right by God by not helping them
C.Seek God's council through Jesus to learn what is best to do concerning the situation then act accordingly
Which is the "Best answer" overall?

Joe please bring Scripture contend your Faith bring it forth and let us read together I will humble myself to hear you but please bring Scripture to the table for us to learn and rejoice together.

I would say to you that Anything not done in Faith of Christ would be for our own Glory and not to Give Glory, thanks and praise to our Lord and Saviour.

Now what work have I proposed outside of the Lord’s Testament? Did I not above share the Lord’s Testament is the foundation for us? Am I then counted unfaithful for believing Him? Do I know what is good without His Word? I think not. We do nothing to be seen of men.. but if one enquires.. what will we declare? Is it not our Faith? All thanks and Praise is for Heavenly Father and the Messiah. What are we but mere pots doing the Good Potter’s will? Shall we boast or exalt the Good Potter? I have no boast but share my beliefs.

The fruit of the Branch comes from the Vine.. be a nourished branch that bears His good fruit for the Glory of the Vine and Husbandman.

The branch remains through belief.. and the good fruit proves the belief.

 

[loveme1]

I bring Scripture:

John 15


1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and thatyour joy might be full.
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[loveme1]

Romans 11

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but ratherthrough their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in hisgoodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[joefizz]

I bring Scripture:

John 15


1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and thatyour joy might be full.
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

basically what I said previously in my post,do works through Jesus for them to be of worth to him.
"self righteousness is as filthy rags" if we entertain the idea that we are perfect or do "good"works of ourselves then we lie to ourselves,for just as you were saying with these passages we are to do for Jesus only for God's glory not ourselves,as you shared of Jesus "abide in me and I in you" so that when something arises that is in opposition to God/Jesus we can know what to say or do through his guidance since his holy spirit once we are saved abides in us.

 

[loveme1]

basically what I said previously in my post,do works through Jesus for them to be of worth to him.
"self righteousness is as filthy rags" if we entertain the idea that we are perfect or do "good"works of ourselves then we lie to ourselves,for just as you were saying with these passages we are to do for Jesus only for God's glory not ourselves,as you shared of Jesus "abide in me and I in you" so that when something arises that is in opposition to God/Jesus we can know what to say or do through his guidance since his holy spirit once we are saved abides in us.

We have self shame indeed..

We don’t wash our filthy rags in our own blood or good works...Only the washing of those filthy rags through His Blood.. and it is then we learn of what defiled our Rags.. and the Lord Teaches us to do the opposite to that we did before and through belief GOD gives us increase to walk patiently the path of His Righteousness we set our heart to obey.. the only path we knew was the one leading to destruction... but now Christ lights the way and we Follow Him unto Everlasting life.

 

[PeterJens]

~For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:

Holy in His Holiness...blameless in His innocence.

Remember Peter, the animal sacrifices were before the age of three, before they could act out in their fallen nature too. For sin affected all the earth. So this is a picture of an exchange of our blame, for His innocence.

This is the simplicity of the gospel. You want to stand in your "holiness" before Father? Good luck with that. The blood on the mercy seat is our intercession before Him. Trust in His blood.

I think you demonstrate cognative disonance.

Jesus cleanses us and makes us holy, purifies us, and calls us His people.

For you this cleansing is not good enough, you still need God to look only to Christ.

It is like saying here is a clean plate. I will put the clean plate on top of the dirty
plate. Now all you can see is the clean plate.

I will then wash the dirty plate. It is now clean. But because of fear that it might
still be dirty I insist you only look at the orginal clean plate.

This is disbelief in the value and reality of the cleansing.

And this is not standing in ones own holiness, but in the cleansing given by Christ.
This is the gospel of promise to deliver us as a Holy people, purchased out of the world.

It is plain this gospel is not the one you actually believe in.
As far as I can see, this is what Jesus, Peter, Paul and the apostles are talking about.
It fits their words 100%, and I in fact end up using the same arguments they used, and
see why they said what they wrote. That is an odd experience, but then nothing in the
world can prepare you for the things of God, because the things of God are unique and
new to us. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

Notice that all of his words are sugar coated, but underneath his smooth talking veneer he is a spiteful unrepentant person. Thank you E-grateful for pointing out this truth, Now I am happy to see that more and more people are beginning to see who he really is.

"It amazes me even more, that even if he does not get banned. People keep responding to him."

It amazes me too.....
God bless

My friends, and I call you friends because I do not want to call you enemies.
You are angry, and worked up. You think you see spite but actually this is just a projection
for you to make sense of things.

dc - God bless him. I do not mind him being who he is. I would desire people were true to
themselves and God, and then the Lord could start to work with them to build men and women
of God.

What is wrong is to create false impressions, to argue in a particular way that appears good
yet in reality you deny all the principles involved.

The power of Christ in our lives is to bring light into our hearts, to cleanse and purify us from
all unrighteousness. It is to create people who speak truth in love and walk in the ways of
Christ.

It appears to me, though these are the words of Paul, Peter, John and James you reject them.

Is this the reason you feel this is such a terrible thing to say and someone sharing this is full
of spite? Spite at what? Very very strange world you live in.

 

[Rokurac]

Please explain what leads you to believe that obedience to God all the time is a false notion?

Okay. Because if you know to do good, and you dont do it, you are sinning. And how many of us can honestly say we always did the right thing, always helped everyone to the best of our abiltiies? No impairment of judgment ever?

 

[PeterJens]

Okay. Because if you know to do good, and you dont do it, you are sinning. And how many of us can honestly say we always did the right thing, always helped everyone to the best of our abiltiies? No impairment of judgment ever?

The unfortunate thing with James's comment about doing good is it is easy to get wrong.
James is saying if your brother or sister are without food and shelter, and you have these
things, you should give them such support. It is not just an option, it is your obligation
in Christ. And if you know this is your position, and you still do not do it, you are sinning.

It is possible to run away with this idea, and say, if you are not polite or follow certain
formalities you are sinning, because that is what "good" people do.

You therefore get into a spiral of self condemnation, which is not where James was going.
He was saying when it is blindingly obvious what the "good" thing is to do, and you still
walk away, you are sinning.

Now some people take this idea to use it to destroy the gospel, righteousness, holiness
and bring condemnation of people with integrity and walking with Jesus.

It is ironic because these same people will claim condemnation is the work of the enemy,
yet this is exactly what they are doing themselves. It is why spiritual traps are difficult
to spot.

 

[Rokurac]

The unfortunate thing with James's comment about doing good is it is easy to get wrong.
James is saying if your brother or sister are without food and shelter, and you have these
things, you should give them such support. It is not just an option, it is your obligation
in Christ. And if you know this is your position, and you still do not do it, you are sinning.

It is possible to run away with this idea, and say, if you are not polite or follow certain
formalities you are sinning, because that is what "good" people do.

You therefore get into a spiral of self condemnation, which is not where James was going.
He was saying when it is blindingly obvious what the "good" thing is to do, and you still
walk away, you are sinning.

Now some people take this idea to use it to destroy the gospel, righteousness, holiness
and bring condemnation of people with integrity and walking with Jesus.

It is ironic because these same people will claim condemnation is the work of the enemy,
yet this is exactly what they are doing themselves. It is why spiritual traps are difficult
to spot.

Okay. So which sins cause you to lose salvation and which doesnt? The ones in 1 Corinthians 6:9?

 

[PeterJens]

You can keep posting ALL you want PETER....I was hacked regardless of your belief or not...and to continue to post slander in an attempt to smear me....just proves to all your character and nature.....

dc - I am impressed.

You decided to quit you twitter account to preserve your image on cc.
I was wondering which you would choose.

That is a kind of repentance, so thank you for this.

What you do not realise is the Lord knows your heart and where you are going.
It also makes me realise how much this all means to you.

And to make you understand, really understand, nothing matters here, not one jot
other than what the Father sees and knows.

It is why when people fight over a hill of beans, they get their hill of beans, but so what.

Thankyou for showing righteousness, integrity, purity and honesty matter above abuse
dishonour, disreputable behaviour and a lack of integrity.

Keep up the good work, and may truth, righteousness and integrity be your hall mark from
now on.

 

[PeterJens]

Okay. So which sins cause you to lose salvation and which doesnt? The ones in 1 Corinthians 6:9?

Salvation is not based on sinning, salvation is based on a living relationship with God.
The foundation of the relationship is faith, or trust in God and knowing you are forgiven
through the cross.

Continuing in sin destroys ones faith and relationship.