Not By Works
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2 Timothy 3:16 (CSBBible)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
I know you think you are professing to be wise, but really you are coming across to most of us here to be the FOOL.
Romans 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
NO ONE KILLED JESUS, HE LAYED DOWN HIS LIFE.
John 10:17-18 (CSBBible)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take it up again.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father."
You had made FALSE COMMENT that there was CHURCH of Abraham, and I proved the word CHURCH did not exist at the time of Christ. And now I see you call them correctly Religious Jews.
So bad for you for being blind to see or perceive what's going around you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.By the way, here's a dose of medicine for the DISOBEDIENT AND PROUD:
New International Version 1984 Matthew 19:16-26 The Rich Young Man Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
New International Version 1984 Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
New International Version 1984 John 14:15 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
DO YOU STILL REMEMBER?
AND THERE'S NO NEED FOR ME TO SHOW ANYONE COZ IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE. ONE JUST NEED TO BE HONEST ENOUGH.
IT'S ALMOST MIDNIGHT HERE. GOODNIGHT BRO!
New International Version 1984 Matthew 19:16-26 The Rich Young Man Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
New International Version 1984 Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
New International Version 1984 John 14:15 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
DO YOU STILL REMEMBER?
AND THERE'S NO NEED FOR ME TO SHOW ANYONE COZ IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE. ONE JUST NEED TO BE HONEST ENOUGH.
IT'S ALMOST MIDNIGHT HERE. GOODNIGHT BRO!
This is a typical miss application of meaning.
They accept Gods commands, but regard them merely as convicting people of being sinners
and not designed to be kept, just to show up sin.
Now this is true the commands show us that we are sinners, but it is the challenge to walk
in Christs ways of love and become empowered to live to the law and fulfill it.
Paul spoke about this here
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:10
What is sad is EG & dc have no answer to this, because they do not believe their
walk can ever fulfill the law, because they do not experience this love within, or else
they would know its reality.
Peter declared it simply by expressing how he found himself obeying God, because that
was his heart, and John found himself loving the brethren, which again was an expression
of the love God had put within him.
They accept Gods commands, but regard them merely as convicting people of being sinners
and not designed to be kept, just to show up sin.
Now this is true the commands show us that we are sinners, but it is the challenge to walk
in Christs ways of love and become empowered to live to the law and fulfill it.
Paul spoke about this here
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:10
What is sad is EG & dc have no answer to this, because they do not believe their
walk can ever fulfill the law, because they do not experience this love within, or else
they would know its reality.
Peter declared it simply by expressing how he found himself obeying God, because that
was his heart, and John found himself loving the brethren, which again was an expression
of the love God had put within him.
How far have we taken the not of works from Ephesians 2:8? When you read how the early church understood that, they agreed with me that its talking about works of the law, it aint talking about obeying Jesus, or faith that worketh by love. Seems like even obeying Jesus is a work and its not of works? Its almost like you're better off not even trying to obey, in case you are trying to save yourself and in that case you are damned for sure, its kinda like Martin Luther saying to sin to spite the devil, if the devil tells you to not drink, go and drink and drink plenty. Madness and confusion.
Its only after the bugged out weirdo Luther of the reformation came along and came up with the strange doctrines only a drunk monk could come up with. He was very anti-semitic, and during WWII his writings were used to rile the people up, he was very heavy into boozing and encouraged others to do so.
But ya cant critique him because hey, Moses killed a man therefore its the same thing but NOPE IT AINT and here is why: Moses repented, Luther to our knowledge never did! This man said sin willfully to spite the devil, the chief heretic, go read the quotes guys. I cant imagine even atheists say the things Luther did!
So all this flaming to say that: Maybe we shouldn't put too much faith into Luther's interpretations.
Btw, to all the bible pundits who claim sola scriptura, put "faith alone" into a bible search engine and see how many verses comes up
Its only one verse, here it is:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
This is why Luther called James a "straw epistle", it refuted his doctrines.
Its the endless word games over James 2, usually the story goes that its talking about justified before men or that genuine faith then produces works. So its faith alone but faith is never alone, thats the word game thats played.
But to cut through all the bible pundit seminary nonsense, heres the deal: Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, and all the other resurrection passages always mention those that have done good to the resurrection of life, why does it say that if deeds dont matter? Why does Jesus say strive to enter if its just repeat after me come as you are Billy Graham package deal?
Im sure the bible pundits got an answer for that! Its probably something about positional righteousness in Christ and our deeds being worthless (Psst. Look up the quotation, our deeds aint filthy rags as christians)
Its only after the bugged out weirdo Luther of the reformation came along and came up with the strange doctrines only a drunk monk could come up with. He was very anti-semitic, and during WWII his writings were used to rile the people up, he was very heavy into boozing and encouraged others to do so.
But ya cant critique him because hey, Moses killed a man therefore its the same thing but NOPE IT AINT and here is why: Moses repented, Luther to our knowledge never did! This man said sin willfully to spite the devil, the chief heretic, go read the quotes guys. I cant imagine even atheists say the things Luther did!
So all this flaming to say that: Maybe we shouldn't put too much faith into Luther's interpretations.
Btw, to all the bible pundits who claim sola scriptura, put "faith alone" into a bible search engine and see how many verses comes up
Its only one verse, here it is:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
This is why Luther called James a "straw epistle", it refuted his doctrines.
Its the endless word games over James 2, usually the story goes that its talking about justified before men or that genuine faith then produces works. So its faith alone but faith is never alone, thats the word game thats played.
But to cut through all the bible pundit seminary nonsense, heres the deal: Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, and all the other resurrection passages always mention those that have done good to the resurrection of life, why does it say that if deeds dont matter? Why does Jesus say strive to enter if its just repeat after me come as you are Billy Graham package deal?
Im sure the bible pundits got an answer for that! Its probably something about positional righteousness in Christ and our deeds being worthless (Psst. Look up the quotation, our deeds aint filthy rags as christians)
E
So bad for you being blind. You again judge. NO ONE HERE IS PREACHING SIN., Your in sin while you judge others who you claim are in sin.
You also prove you are unteachable. You judge people who rightly admit they are not sinless. Yet when you are confronted about your own sinless. You admit you are in the same boat they are
You give your church a bad name, and you give God a bad name.
Non of the passage you quote prove your point. I believe them just as much as you do. Gets ahold of yourself and remove your blindness.
You also prove you are unteachable. You judge people who rightly admit they are not sinless. Yet when you are confronted about your own sinless. You admit you are in the same boat they are
You give your church a bad name, and you give God a bad name.
Non of the passage you quote prove your point. I believe them just as much as you do. Gets ahold of yourself and remove your blindness.
To believe in the Jesus of the Bible means to believe His Words and teachings as well.
Your claimed "Belief" does not make void the scriptures I posted, nor the implications of their meaning. Your response didn't address the point of my post.
I would ask you a question and hope for an honest answer.
What were the "Work's of the Law" contained in the Law of Moses that pertained to the remission of sins?
Your claimed "Belief" does not make void the scriptures I posted, nor the implications of their meaning. Your response didn't address the point of my post.
I would ask you a question and hope for an honest answer.
What were the "Work's of the Law" contained in the Law of Moses that pertained to the remission of sins?
honest answer- I did not write Romans and Galatians. Paul did. i did not write 1st John. John did.so, if you want to know about the things they wrote, ask them.
i see what you are attempting to do here. you are trying to frame that i am saying that salvation is not through the law. i am pointing you to what they said, which because, you know, they were Christ's hand-picked disciples to carry the Gospel. nice try though. sorry i did not fall for it.
i see what you are attempting to do here. you are trying to frame that i am saying that salvation is not through the law. i am pointing you to what they said, which because, you know, they were Christ's hand-picked disciples to carry the Gospel. nice try though. sorry i did not fall for it.
You know, I am starting to appreciate the hard-headed opponents of Mainline Christian Doctrines, for being here; for several reasons.
1. I am learning patience and long suffering, like never before.
2. It is sharpening my sword to be razor sharp.
Their hard heads are the perfect sharpening stone.
3. Their repetitiveness of making the same false statement over and over,
are making verses stick in my head that I have always had a hard time remembering.
4. Sabbaticals, are becoming more needful, precious and refreshing to me.
5. It reminds me of a favorite scene of mine in the Movie, about Paul's life, when
Barnabas asked Paul, "Is it alright if I pray, that in the next town they will have softer rocks."
6. I get more opportunities, to encourage like-minded Believers
to remain strong in the Faith, and thereby encourage them.
7. I get to spend more personal time with my LORD comforting me,
while I listen to what HE wants me to say.
1. I am learning patience and long suffering, like never before.
2. It is sharpening my sword to be razor sharp.
Their hard heads are the perfect sharpening stone.
3. Their repetitiveness of making the same false statement over and over,
are making verses stick in my head that I have always had a hard time remembering.
4. Sabbaticals, are becoming more needful, precious and refreshing to me.
5. It reminds me of a favorite scene of mine in the Movie, about Paul's life, when
Barnabas asked Paul, "Is it alright if I pray, that in the next town they will have softer rocks."
6. I get more opportunities, to encourage like-minded Believers
to remain strong in the Faith, and thereby encourage them.
7. I get to spend more personal time with my LORD comforting me,
while I listen to what HE wants me to say.
Genesis to Revelation it is God who saves, your good works are evidence that God saved you. The people who are adding their good works to God's saving grace have "fallen from grace", it has become of no effect to you. Galatians5:4 Where is the Cross, where is Jesus in your theology. You put Jesus in the back and your good works in the front, wrong theology.
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil1:6
Our Justification: the imputed righteous of Jesus Christ. Your good works cannot keep you saved God can
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil1:6
Our Justification: the imputed righteous of Jesus Christ. Your good works cannot keep you saved God can
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith;" as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."Romans1:17
Quote: Monergism.com
Paul is making the point that if Adam's disobedience to the law of God was the reason for death, then Jesus full obedience to all the prescriptions of the divine law unto death is what brings us righteousness.
"For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous." Rom5:19
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2Cor5:21
"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."1Cor1:30
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."2Cor5:2
Your works will not merit you eternal life but Jesus Christ perfect obedience will.
Attribute: https://www.monergism.com/topics/jus.../righteousness
While it is true Jesus didn't resist these Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time, He didn't commit suicide as you suggest.
He allowed these wicked, deceitful deceivers, who came in God's Name, but Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions, to do their wickedness.
These are not my words, but the Bibles.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
1 Thess. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Jesus didn't kill Himself.
So once again, God/Jesus in their wisdom have exposed, not my belief as false, but yours. To say these self proclaiming "Children of Abraham" didn't kill Jesus is about the most egregious lie I have ever heard on this forum. And that is saying a lot.
You might be better served to stay on the ignore because the more you say, the more your doctrine is exposed as coming from man and not from God.
Rom. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
(Like the images and Statues of some Long Haired Men's hair shampoo model you created or accept as your jesus)
Just because I don't ignore the scriptures you choose to ignore, doesn't mean I live against God. It just means I live against your preaching, that is not the same. It's not my fault the scriptures I post offend you. I mean them as a help.
He allowed these wicked, deceitful deceivers, who came in God's Name, but Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions, to do their wickedness.
These are not my words, but the Bibles.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
1 Thess. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Jesus didn't kill Himself.
So once again, God/Jesus in their wisdom have exposed, not my belief as false, but yours. To say these self proclaiming "Children of Abraham" didn't kill Jesus is about the most egregious lie I have ever heard on this forum. And that is saying a lot.
You might be better served to stay on the ignore because the more you say, the more your doctrine is exposed as coming from man and not from God.
Rom. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
(Like the images and Statues of some Long Haired Men's hair shampoo model you created or accept as your jesus)
Just because I don't ignore the scriptures you choose to ignore, doesn't mean I live against God. It just means I live against your preaching, that is not the same. It's not my fault the scriptures I post offend you. I mean them as a help.
Amazing isn't it.
This is a Bible discussion forum and I asked a simple question which is necessary to know in order to understand Paul reference to the "works of the Law" as it pertains to the justification of sin.
But you can't answer this honestly because the truth about what the "works of the Law" Paul is referring to brings the very foundation of Mainstream Christian Doctrine into question.
So then you are cornered into refusing to answer a simple question because the answer condemns, not Galatians or Romans, but the Mainstream Teaching regarding them.
If you understood what Paul was referring to, you would know the New Covenant has to do with the remission of sins, not the definition of sin.
But I see that you know this already, otherwise you would simply answer the question. That is unfortunate.
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
This is a Bible discussion forum and I asked a simple question which is necessary to know in order to understand Paul reference to the "works of the Law" as it pertains to the justification of sin.
But you can't answer this honestly because the truth about what the "works of the Law" Paul is referring to brings the very foundation of Mainstream Christian Doctrine into question.
So then you are cornered into refusing to answer a simple question because the answer condemns, not Galatians or Romans, but the Mainstream Teaching regarding them.
If you understood what Paul was referring to, you would know the New Covenant has to do with the remission of sins, not the definition of sin.
But I see that you know this already, otherwise you would simply answer the question. That is unfortunate.
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Galatians 2- Paul explains how righteousness and justification does NOT come through the Law.
and, by the way, i have read the Bible from cover to cover about 17 times, so i know what it says. that is way i know , no matter how you try to spin the ceremonial Laws, the Mosaic law, the Old Covenant , the sacred calendar , etc..., no matter how many ways you try to imply that Paul contradicts Christ, no matter how many verses you yank and paste out of context, these tricks do not nullify the truth that " by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified ".
sorry, you get no treats for your tricks. just correction. will you receive it??
and, by the way, i have read the Bible from cover to cover about 17 times, so i know what it says. that is way i know , no matter how you try to spin the ceremonial Laws, the Mosaic law, the Old Covenant , the sacred calendar , etc..., no matter how many ways you try to imply that Paul contradicts Christ, no matter how many verses you yank and paste out of context, these tricks do not nullify the truth that " by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified ".
sorry, you get no treats for your tricks. just correction. will you receive it??
Evening.
To be honest I can’t get a handle on what your beef is about concerning the mainstream teaching of the church.
Maybe for clarification rather than ask the questions can you explain what exactly your views are.
If you have and I have missed would you please repost it for me.
John 9:41
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
Jesus is talking to the Pharisees here and not the man that was healed and the people who would have seen it.
The healed man which leads into the verse you quoted on its own
John 9:35-41
True Vision and True Blindness
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
9:40-41: Are you saying we’re blind? Jesus answered that those who claim to hold all religious truth will discover that they are blind, while those who recognize their spiritual poverty will find true sight. In the story, the blind man and his family frequently confessed that they did not know, while the Pharisees repeatedly stated their confidence and remained guilty because of their religious pride. If they had confessed their ignorance and admitted their spiritual blindness, they would be guiltless. Instead, their conscious and willful rejection of Jesus established their guilt. (NLT study notes)
Humans naturally connect vision and sight to “insight” or understanding. How many times, upon figuring out some problem, challenge, or difficulty, have we exclaimed, “I see it now!”? How many times, after having explained something to someone, have we asked them whether they can “see” it? We don’t exclaim that we’ve heard it, or tasted it, touched it, or smelled it; we “see” it.
This tendency to explain understanding in terms of vision is not new to us; we see it presented in the Scriptures as well. Jesus fully exploits this tendency in an exquisite double entendre at the conclusion of John 9.
John 9:39-41 is based on the interactions among Jesus, a physically blind man, and the Pharisees throughout John 9:1-38. Jesus comes upon this man born physically blind and heals him of his blindness (John 9:1-7). This event is made known to the Pharisees, and they bring in the formerly blind man for questioning (John 9:8-15). The Pharisees insist that such a thing could not be of God because it was done upon the Sabbath; others find it hard to deny the obvious evidence before them (John 9:16). The Pharisees question this man’s parents and then the man again: they demand that he give God the glory, since they “knew” that the Man who did this was a “sinner” (John 9:17-27). The Pharisees are “disciples of Moses,” and they know that God spoke to Moses, but they do not know where “this Man,” that is Jesus, is from (John 9:28-29).
The formerly blind man stands boldly in faith, logically refuting the Pharisees’ argument: if He was really a sinner, God would not hear Him, and yet until that time there had been no example of anyone’s eyes ever being opened as his eyes were (John 9:30-32). He quite rightly concludes that Jesus could do nothing if He were not of God (John 9:33). The Pharisees were offended at this boldness, declaring that such a man was “altogether born in sins,” and yet dared to try to teach them, and therefore cast him out of the synagogue, in effect banning him from the Jewish community (John 9:34). Jesus then found the man born blind and asked him if he believed in the Son of God (John 9:36); after asking who He is and being informed that Jesus is, in fact, the Son of God, he declared his belief in Jesus and prostrated before Him (John 9:36-37).
The conclusion of the matter is found in John 9:39-41. The whole situation has provided evidence for His claim: He came for judgment, allowing the blind to see and blinding those who see. It is not as if the statement is to be taken literally; as far as we can tell, Jesus never caused anyone who could physically see to become physically blind (although Paul does in Acts 13:4-12). Yes, Jesus heals this blind man’s eyes, and he now can physically see. Jesus’ emphasis, however, is not on his physical vision but his spiritual insight: he now believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He now “sees” in a way he did not “see” while blind. He, once a blind man in the midst of those who could see, now finds himself as one who sees in the midst of blind men.
Jesus does not blind those who “see” physically, nor does He even really intend to do so spiritually.
The problem is not with Him; the problem is in those who claim to “see,” evidently the Pharisees from John 9:41. Jesus’ statement there is stark: if they admitted their blindness, they would be without sin, but since they say they see, their sin remains. This again has less to do with physical sight and more to do with internal insight: the Pharisees are convinced they know Moses, they know what Moses taught, they know what Sabbath observance looks like, and they certainly know what Sabbath violations look like. They are blinded by their complete conviction of their vision! They find themselves declaring that the work of God really did not come from God because it did not happen in the way they would have expected it to according to their understanding of the Law. (Spiritualmanna.info)
ps everyone sorry about the long post
To be honest I can’t get a handle on what your beef is about concerning the mainstream teaching of the church.
Maybe for clarification rather than ask the questions can you explain what exactly your views are.
If you have and I have missed would you please repost it for me.
John 9:41
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
Jesus is talking to the Pharisees here and not the man that was healed and the people who would have seen it.
The healed man which leads into the verse you quoted on its own
John 9:35-41
True Vision and True Blindness
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
9:40-41: Are you saying we’re blind? Jesus answered that those who claim to hold all religious truth will discover that they are blind, while those who recognize their spiritual poverty will find true sight. In the story, the blind man and his family frequently confessed that they did not know, while the Pharisees repeatedly stated their confidence and remained guilty because of their religious pride. If they had confessed their ignorance and admitted their spiritual blindness, they would be guiltless. Instead, their conscious and willful rejection of Jesus established their guilt. (NLT study notes)
And Jesus said, “For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind.”
Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said unto him, “Are we also blind?”
Jesus said unto them, “If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, ‘We see’: your sin remaineth” (John 9:39-41).
All five senses are important, yet we attach great significance to sight. We live in a world full of images, signs, books, and all sorts of material which need to be seen to be understood and/or appreciated. Sure, it is possible to survive without vision, but it is a hard road indeed.Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said unto him, “Are we also blind?”
Jesus said unto them, “If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, ‘We see’: your sin remaineth” (John 9:39-41).
Humans naturally connect vision and sight to “insight” or understanding. How many times, upon figuring out some problem, challenge, or difficulty, have we exclaimed, “I see it now!”? How many times, after having explained something to someone, have we asked them whether they can “see” it? We don’t exclaim that we’ve heard it, or tasted it, touched it, or smelled it; we “see” it.
This tendency to explain understanding in terms of vision is not new to us; we see it presented in the Scriptures as well. Jesus fully exploits this tendency in an exquisite double entendre at the conclusion of John 9.
John 9:39-41 is based on the interactions among Jesus, a physically blind man, and the Pharisees throughout John 9:1-38. Jesus comes upon this man born physically blind and heals him of his blindness (John 9:1-7). This event is made known to the Pharisees, and they bring in the formerly blind man for questioning (John 9:8-15). The Pharisees insist that such a thing could not be of God because it was done upon the Sabbath; others find it hard to deny the obvious evidence before them (John 9:16). The Pharisees question this man’s parents and then the man again: they demand that he give God the glory, since they “knew” that the Man who did this was a “sinner” (John 9:17-27). The Pharisees are “disciples of Moses,” and they know that God spoke to Moses, but they do not know where “this Man,” that is Jesus, is from (John 9:28-29).
The formerly blind man stands boldly in faith, logically refuting the Pharisees’ argument: if He was really a sinner, God would not hear Him, and yet until that time there had been no example of anyone’s eyes ever being opened as his eyes were (John 9:30-32). He quite rightly concludes that Jesus could do nothing if He were not of God (John 9:33). The Pharisees were offended at this boldness, declaring that such a man was “altogether born in sins,” and yet dared to try to teach them, and therefore cast him out of the synagogue, in effect banning him from the Jewish community (John 9:34). Jesus then found the man born blind and asked him if he believed in the Son of God (John 9:36); after asking who He is and being informed that Jesus is, in fact, the Son of God, he declared his belief in Jesus and prostrated before Him (John 9:36-37).
The conclusion of the matter is found in John 9:39-41. The whole situation has provided evidence for His claim: He came for judgment, allowing the blind to see and blinding those who see. It is not as if the statement is to be taken literally; as far as we can tell, Jesus never caused anyone who could physically see to become physically blind (although Paul does in Acts 13:4-12). Yes, Jesus heals this blind man’s eyes, and he now can physically see. Jesus’ emphasis, however, is not on his physical vision but his spiritual insight: he now believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He now “sees” in a way he did not “see” while blind. He, once a blind man in the midst of those who could see, now finds himself as one who sees in the midst of blind men.
Jesus does not blind those who “see” physically, nor does He even really intend to do so spiritually.
The problem is not with Him; the problem is in those who claim to “see,” evidently the Pharisees from John 9:41. Jesus’ statement there is stark: if they admitted their blindness, they would be without sin, but since they say they see, their sin remains. This again has less to do with physical sight and more to do with internal insight: the Pharisees are convinced they know Moses, they know what Moses taught, they know what Sabbath observance looks like, and they certainly know what Sabbath violations look like. They are blinded by their complete conviction of their vision! They find themselves declaring that the work of God really did not come from God because it did not happen in the way they would have expected it to according to their understanding of the Law. (Spiritualmanna.info)
ps everyone sorry about the long post
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Well said gb9, the anti-grace, pro works people, have little to say about our Saviour, and plenty to say about their wonderful achievements, Christianity is a faith in Jesus Christ and His perfect life and Sacrifice. Anything less is a merit based faith which can never save a living soul.
For some the bible is not a Holy Book to equip the believer for, "every good work in Christ Jesus", it is a game of scripture twisting and doing mental back flips for their personal enjoyment.....as you have done, so should we all, don't buy into their twisted notions of scripture and who were are "In Christ."
God bless you gb9
1Corinthians2:1-5
1) And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2) "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
3) I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.
4) My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5) so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."
For some the bible is not a Holy Book to equip the believer for, "every good work in Christ Jesus", it is a game of scripture twisting and doing mental back flips for their personal enjoyment.....as you have done, so should we all, don't buy into their twisted notions of scripture and who were are "In Christ."
God bless you gb9
1Corinthians2:1-5
1) And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2) "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
3) I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.
4) My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5) so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."
But the Old Covenant, in the same Bible you claimed to have read cover to cover 17 times, is the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial ceremonial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. This is specifically mentioned and discussed in Hebrews 7-10.
Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
If you have read the Bible 17 times cover to cover, how is it you don't know about how sin's were cleansed prior to the "Seed" coming?
Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
If you have read the Bible 17 times cover to cover, how is it you don't know about how sin's were cleansed prior to the "Seed" coming?