Not By Works

[Meggido]

Ok putting aside the Gnostics for the moment, well no let's not because into today's church there is false teaching.

Are you vexed because you feel people are using John to say that believers can lose salvation, or they never believed or because you feel accused of easy believism?

Not being obtuse I promise, just trying to understand fully what you are saying.

He might be vexed, because some of us do not believe that 1 John 2.19 is written to give us permission to use that verse as a bully billy club to to claim someone who they thought was saved was never, ever really saved to begin with......

I believe personally, it is spiritually, emotionally and intellectually dishonest of any saint to use 1 John 2.19 apologetically as a proof test of salvation or no salvation...I say this because the context of 1 John 2.19 having anything to do with who is saved or not saved, salvation, losing salvation and salvation in general simply is not there....

I say this same thing about 1 John 4.1-4...Please do not get on a prayer line or altar counseling and ask someone if they believe Jesus came in the flesh as a test to see if they are demonized or not...

I view 1 John 2.19 and most of 1 John as a warning letter, teaching me how to discern against false teachers with a spirit of antichrist....and most of it it tells me that those such people are not believers and are never going to be believers and has zero to do with testing salvation of people...

That is why I fight people on 1 John 2.19...I have seen first hand how many people have been broken by someone claiming they were never really saved to begin with.....and use that verse to justify their judgement....not discernment...big difference in the two...

 

[stonesoffire]

It's a good point Meggido...I just am not assured yet it's correct.

However, I saw one teach the same thing on the other thread that you all came against. I've been trying to find her post.

 

[BillG]

LOL, It's all good bro,

I am vexed because people are using the Gnostics to excuse To show that these are the only people John spoke to who left the church because they lost faith and became an antichrist, in order to support their legalism.

I.e., We can lose faith, Go against christ and in doing so we have lost salvation.

my response, John says otherwise, if we were part of a church and left and now deny christ, John said we were never saved to begin with.

Their response, John spoke to Gnostics only, it does not relatye to all people who lost faith and now do not believe in Christ.

We all should be mad at this extreme misinterpretation of Gods weird to support ones legalistic gospel.

Here is is my understanding and I think we agree.

John was writing to the church possibly in Ephesus and was writing to the believers.
The reason being was to warn them of the heresy of the Gnostics and also Cerinthiasm (Jesus was just a man whom the Christ ascended on at baptism and departed from him before the cruxifiction and therefore the Spritual Christ did not suffer and die for our sins)

With regards to 1 John 2:19 I would say they were not believers in the first place. That being the risen Lord Jesus who died and rose again for our sins.

2:19 When the false teachers went out from among the believers, they revealed that they did not belong to the Christian community; they were never true believers. they … us: In the opening verses of this book, John made a distinction between we and you (1:1, 3). We, the apostles, were the eyewitnesses of Christ, you were the readers. That same distinction is probably maintained here (see also v. 20). Thus when John says these false teachers were not of us, he means they did not agree with the teaching of the apostles. These antichrists had departed from the apostolic churches, and their attitudes and actions were not of the apostolic persuasion. If they had been in harmony with the apostles, they would have remained in fellowship with them (1:1–3). NKJV study notes

 

[Meggido]

In case anyone missed this on the other thread..to those who received the prophetic word.

Those who have slain the giant receive Kingship. Authority. We are kings and priests unto God.

Please post this entire "prophetic" word and who gave it, so that it may be correctly judged by any true NT prophets that might be on the board...and as per 1 Corinthians 14.30-33

I would also caution you stones, that you seem to try to force and walk in certain anointing and ministry that you may not really have.....but just desire

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He might be vexed, because some of us do not believe that 1 John 2.19 is written to give us permission to use that verse as a bully billy club to to claim someone who they thought was saved was never, ever really saved to begin with......

I believe personally, it is spiritually, emotionally and intellectually dishonest of any saint to use 1 John 2.19 apologetically as a proof test of salvation or no salvation...I say this because the context of 1 John 2.19 having anything to do with who is saved or not saved, salvation, losing salvation and salvation in general simply is not there....

I say this same thing about 1 John 4.1-4...Please do not get on a prayer line or altar counseling and ask someone if they believe Jesus came in the flesh as a test to see if they are demonized or not...

I view 1 John 2.19 and most of 1 John as a warning letter, teaching me how to discern against false teachers with a spirit of antichrist....and most of it it tells me that those such people are not believers and are never going to be believers and has zero to do with testing salvation of people...

That is why I fight people on 1 John 2.19...I have seen first hand how many people have been broken by someone claiming they were never really saved to begin with.....and use that verse to justify their judgement....not discernment...big difference in the two...

see this s what the mean, how can you not take first john 2 to not be talking about salvation, what else could he be talking about salvation and about being a true member of the church (part of us)

and yes, you can use first john 2 to say a person who claims at one time they were saved, but now claims they do not even believe in Christ any,ore, that they were never saved to begin with, that is what john said.


In fact chapter 2 john gives us the test of whether we really know him, or do not (we obey him)


He continues with the spiritual state State of true believers, the child, the young men and the father

Then he talks about the deceptions of the last hour, which is seen in Johns day (prove enough he is not talking about Gnostics in his day, but about false teachers in the last days) and how it has, and will infiltrate the church and cause people to leave, denying Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

Please post this entire "prophetic" word and who gave it, so that it may be correctly judged by any true NT prophets that might be on the board...and as per 1 Corinthians 14.30-33

I would also caution you stones, that you seem to try to force and walk in certain anointing and ministry that you may not really have.....but just desire

I give what I hear when it's from me. You received. I don't claim to be anything but I do agree with what He says through me and through the prophets.

As you should too. I gave the word to those I knew it was for.

I was just told this that I posted from another.

 

[stonesoffire]

Post # 79 on thread, does Holy Spirit convict the believer of sin...

 

[Meggido]

see this s what the mean, how can you not take first john 2 to not be talking about salvation, what else could he be talking about salvation and about being a true member of the church (part of us)

and yes, you can use first john 2 to say a person who claims at one time they were saved, but now claims they do not even believe in Christ any,ore, that they were never saved to begin with, that is what john said.


In fact chapter 2 john gives us the test of whether we really know him, or do not (we obey him)


He continues with the spiritual state State of true believers, the child, the young men and the father

Then he talks about the deceptions of the last hour, which is seen in Johns day (prove enough he is not talking about Gnostics in his day, but about false teachers in the last days) and how it has, and will infiltrate the church and cause people to leave, denying Christ.

The context does not support you here....the fact is, John knew they were not saved to begin with....it is common among certain evangelistic teaching to attmept to rightly divide this passage with the parable of the wheat and tares,so that means its all about salvation... but that is not at all supported by the context....

Using 1 John 219 as a proof test for who is saved and who is not is playing Holy Spirit.....and *COULD* fall into violation of Matt 12.36-37

 

[Meggido]

Post # 79 on thread, does Holy Spirit convict the believer of sin...

thanks......and as I suspected, joanie did not come up with this...it was a cut and paste from another poster here, see below....


Last edited by BenFTW; August 16th, 2015 at 01:51 AM.

 

[stonesoffire]

thanks......and as I suspected, joanie did not come up with this...it was a cut and paste from another poster here, see below....


Last edited by BenFTW; August 16th, 2015 at 01:51 AM.

but she posted in agreement.

 

[Grace777x70]

but she posted in agreement.

Joaniemarie did give credit that it was from Ben and was in agreement with it just as you said. I too agree with what was written there about 1 John chapter 1. Some may dis-agree with it. That is between them and their Lord.

Here is the direct quote:

Hey Joseph., Here is a post from a thread started some year or so ago by Ben., with some links about 1 John 1:9

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ct-born-again-believer-sin-4.html#post3264776

 

[dcontroversal]

see this s what the mean, how can you not take first john 2 to not be talking about salvation, what else could he be talking about salvation and about being a true member of the church (part of us)

and yes, you can use first john 2 to say a person who claims at one time they were saved, but now claims they do not even believe in Christ any,ore, that they were never saved to begin with, that is what john said.


In fact chapter 2 john gives us the test of whether we really know him, or do not (we obey him)


He continues with the spiritual state State of true believers, the child, the young men and the father

Then he talks about the deceptions of the last hour, which is seen in Johns day (prove enough he is not talking about Gnostics in his day, but about false teachers in the last days) and how it has, and will infiltrate the church and cause people to leave, denying Christ.

He said clearly that they went out from us because they never were of us......regardless of who he is speaking about....the implication is clear.....same with Jesus saying I never knew you.....the implication is clear......it is not that difficult.....unless one needs to twist it into a salvation that is losable.........NEVER were, NEVER knew..........NEVER means never!

the word never

oudepote: never​

Original Word: οὐδέποτε
Part of Speech: Adverb, Negative
Transliteration: oudepote
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-dep'-ot-eh)
Short Definition: never
Definition: never.

 

[dcontroversal]

This was an obvious joke, the Apostle Paul did not drink cappuccinos. Sorry if this offended you, I will tone down the humor.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." Prov17:22

We all know Paul drank Phariccinos........

 

[Meggido]

He said clearly that they went out from us because they never were of us......regardless of who he is speaking about....the implication is clear.....same with Jesus saying I never knew you.....the implication is clear......it is not that difficult.....unless one needs to twist it into a salvation that is losable.........NEVER were, NEVER knew..........NEVER means never!

the word never

oudepote: never​

Original Word: οὐδέποτε
Part of Speech: Adverb, Negative
Transliteration: oudepote
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-dep'-ot-eh)
Short Definition: never
Definition: never.

Exactly, they never, ever were believers.....I said this numerous times.....salvation, losing salvation or or salvation in general is not even in the context...and neither is there a command or passive permission to use 1 John 2.19 to test salvation....

 

[BillG]

We all know Paul drank Phariccinos........

Oh dear don't give up your day job.

You should be on a stage, there is one leaving in 5 minutes. Make sure your on it.

Having said that I now wait for incoming as well as it is deserved.

 

[Meggido]

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Oh, I'm waiting to check "my history here" while waiting for you to document it, historically. Then I can really "check" history.

Documentation. Go get it. And then apply this to those who were accused by name with further documentation.

All we have thus far are accusations. Unsubstantiated accusations attached to names.

If you cannot provide this in documented detail, as well as those of others, said accusations will then be considered slander and false. Since you claim these to be true, you should have ready proof.

You've gone on to support this, now provide literal proof of these accusations.

I am waiting and have provided proof and bumped this 3x now....Calling preacher4truth.....

Notice you left off the most important part of my post....this proves you have a closed mind...just because you think something is untrue does not make it untrue...now to be the spiritual adult here, let me show my entire post to you versus the proof-text you did on my post, so people can judge for themselves....notice the bold parts please

Better check your history here p4t...Early Christianity was in fact influenced heavily by Platoism....Of Christianity, notable followers were in fact, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and few others...

I think willy went a bit past the mandate here....but you can google christian platonists and find credible references and facts that the above church fathers were very heavily influenced by Platoism... I cannot find anything on Calvin, Spurgeon or others and that might be where willy went past the mandate...

Here are some links that have other links to prove the point....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopla...d_Christianity

Perhaps the best record is this one:

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm<<<<his list links to the historical records.


I also suppose you would outright deny that when Paul preached at Mars Hill, he was not quoting two Greek Poets in Acts 17.28 which is taken from 2 poems/hymns written by 2 Greek men to Zeus...1 an astronomer and poet and the other a Greek Stoic...and were most likely...Aratus and Cleanthes

Christian Platonism is what birthed Gnostic doctrine and was rapidly invading the Early Church in the 1-4 centuries

Gnostics originated in Alexandria and mingled with the early Christian church in the 1st century....this is why John sent his 3 letters out to the churches because the Church as becoming heavily influenced by syncretism.....This is why he wrote 1 John 2.19 and why that verse has zero to do with salvation or eternal security and should no be used as a bully wielding billy club to judge salvation...by saying with arrogance....oh that person, they were never saved to begin with....John knew those who had invaded the church were not believers....he was warning other churches about Platonic and Gnostic influences that are the spirit of antichrist...


For the record, I am also available if you would like me to come to your next cookout and cut your steak, separate your veggies and taters and get your favorite sippee cup filled with Juice for you as well....


Now put up or shut up about this....because your closed mind to all things Calvin is limiting your otherwise great wisdom on discerning false teachings...

 

[Meggido]

We all know Paul drank Phariccinos........

not nearly quite as bad as drinking the saddusee smoothie.....it buries you with no hope of resurrection....

 

[BillG]

not nearly quite as bad as drinking the saddusee smoothie.....it buries you with no hope of resurrection....

Oh dear dear me.
I was going to put out there what could one say about the above.

Oh oh well see you and Dcon on the stage.
Anyone else want to join us?

 

[Meggido]

Oh dear dear me.
I was going to put out there what could one say about the above.

Oh oh well see you and Dcon on the stage.
Anyone else want to join us?

Jesus had a hard time drinking with his disciples....something was fishy....

 

[Limey410v2]

Jesus had a hard time drinking with his disciples....something was fishy....

brrrrrat dat dat cymbal crash