Not By Works
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I read what you said, not what wasn't there. Now you say the idea of not needing to do anything is in the church as well, while saying you mean unbelievers. The church is made up of believers. What church teaches no need for repentance and belief in Jesus? Are you referring to non Christian churches? Do you know that some of the so-called churches explicitly acknowledge that they are not for believers? Is that the type of church you mean?
Philippians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 17Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 18For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.
what have they always obeyed?
Why are they instructed to work out their own Salvation with fear and trembling?
Hold forth the word of life?
Was their not a one off moment for these people?
Was it an ongoing belief? I believe so.
Why write such such things to believers?
I believe it is to encourage them to remain Faithful and not to be highminded.
These people were beloved and were obeying.
So so they were believers being encouraged to keep obeying the Truth.
Mag - You are right, the church is the place where believers meet, or groups who claim
to know Christ or follow His ways.
There are many approaches that people bring over into faith, because we are a work in
transition. It is why lifestyles take time to change, family histories to be healed and worked
through, relationships to be seen in the context of the Kingdom and not just power politics.
The biggest area is being defensive, to create stability rather than working things through.
It takes time and effort to work things through and is always a challenge because it means
we change as a result as well. But in a loving environment this is not a problem.
Paul put it like this, I have become content with much and with little.
I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Phil 4:12
This is always a challenge, because often stress and insecurity are our foes, rather than
things that empower us and push us on.
If we see each day as a gift from the Lord, not something to expect or deserve, then maybe
we get a better perspective. On the other side is the Kingdom of heaven, but today a privilege
to serve and help in the building and witness of the body, Amen.
to know Christ or follow His ways.
There are many approaches that people bring over into faith, because we are a work in
transition. It is why lifestyles take time to change, family histories to be healed and worked
through, relationships to be seen in the context of the Kingdom and not just power politics.
The biggest area is being defensive, to create stability rather than working things through.
It takes time and effort to work things through and is always a challenge because it means
we change as a result as well. But in a loving environment this is not a problem.
Paul put it like this, I have become content with much and with little.
I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Phil 4:12
This is always a challenge, because often stress and insecurity are our foes, rather than
things that empower us and push us on.
If we see each day as a gift from the Lord, not something to expect or deserve, then maybe
we get a better perspective. On the other side is the Kingdom of heaven, but today a privilege
to serve and help in the building and witness of the body, Amen.
I understand what you are saying here and yes love is the ultimate goal and a process of growth and maturity.....however....I have one issue and it is with the bolded.....I cannot get past the seemingly contradictory statement about the bolded above and what the following verse has to state...
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
AMEN.....and when he states, "I never knew them" means exactly that....they were never saved to begin with....same rings true with your point.....those mentioned in the truth and called the MANY (plenteous in number) that come before the throne and are subsequently rejected and cast have placed their faith, trust and emphasis upon a works based salvation......they were never in the root and the whole premise goes to their professed knowledge of Jesus and foundation which was in error to begin with..........HE NEVER KNEW THEM!
This is not teaching a worked for salvation or a salvation that must be maintained by works......
Work out your salvation......YOUR is a personal pronoun which means it is something they already possess and the implication is to fit out what you already posses.......such as the order found in the following...
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
NOTICE.....the word "YOUR" is not past what they already POSSESS which is FAITH........
YOUR-->ὑμῶν
Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: su
Phonetic Spelling: (soo)
Short Definition: you
Definition: you.
Work out your salvation......YOUR is a personal pronoun which means it is something they already possess and the implication is to fit out what you already posses.......such as the order found in the following...
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
NOTICE.....the word "YOUR" is not past what they already POSSESS which is FAITH........
YOUR-->ὑμῶν
Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: su
Phonetic Spelling: (soo)
Short Definition: you
Definition: you.
AMEN brother.....just when we think there is no hope he comes thru in spades.......makes me think of the disciples in the ship tossed to and fro on the storm tossed sea.....they were positive they were at the point of perishing in the sea......and Jesus rebukes the wind and the sea....oh ye of little faith.....!
Hi all...I do not believe we will ever know while walking on this earth how much our Father God really loves us...It is one thing to speak His love from our lips, but when we are on our own and tears are flowing, family have no idea who you are anymore because they are lost and we are found, when our hands our covering our faces while the tears pour, we hear these words " I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you " 
...If i was still attached to my unsaved family, my heart would break, last night I truly came to realize what cold hearts mean ...When times are hard, I turn to Him, my Savior, my Lord, my everything...His promises are truth, I am sealed in Him, who in their right mind would want to walk away, I will run to Him, I am saved and my Faith in Him has grown today, why, because I trusted, leaned and relied on Him, today I am walking tall because He has restored me...What a wonderful thing to be a child of God...Thank you Jesus...xox...
...If i was still attached to my unsaved family, my heart would break, last night I truly came to realize what cold hearts mean ...When times are hard, I turn to Him, my Savior, my Lord, my everything...His promises are truth, I am sealed in Him, who in their right mind would want to walk away, I will run to Him, I am saved and my Faith in Him has grown today, why, because I trusted, leaned and relied on Him, today I am walking tall because He has restored me...What a wonderful thing to be a child of God...Thank you Jesus...xox...I know that's how what they are saying sounds to you. But they don't believe there is no need for change. They have just seen they don't change themselves and that God is doing it.
As for resting passivity, you will see that it becomes more passive after some of the struggles and skirmishes of growing trust are won. IT becomes more passive and yet prayer becomes more and more and more. You will see that eventually because you will live it.
I know it is sometimes nearly impossible to have conversation beyond going over the basics again and again with some men and this is because they truly believe you don't understand the basics, even when you do. And it is sometimes further hindered because their goal is a certain doctrine and nothing else really. But you can always find men who are where you are and who you can talk with and then you can sometimes find that rare man who may be past you in spiritual understanding but who remembers being there himself and so he doesn't fight with you but has good and productive conversation with you.
As for resting passivity, you will see that it becomes more passive after some of the struggles and skirmishes of growing trust are won. IT becomes more passive and yet prayer becomes more and more and more. You will see that eventually because you will live it.
I know it is sometimes nearly impossible to have conversation beyond going over the basics again and again with some men and this is because they truly believe you don't understand the basics, even when you do. And it is sometimes further hindered because their goal is a certain doctrine and nothing else really. But you can always find men who are where you are and who you can talk with and then you can sometimes find that rare man who may be past you in spiritual understanding but who remembers being there himself and so he doesn't fight with you but has good and productive conversation with you.
that is the main reason this thread is nearing 2000 pages. about half of it is people arguing against the non-existing " THEM and THEY " ,.
you can't have a fruitful conversation with someone who is trying to rebuke people who are not there, and claiming the people who are not there are saying things like " sin does not matter "," just believe and do whatever you want, and get a free pass into Heaven". all strawmen.
you can't have a fruitful conversation with someone who is trying to rebuke people who are not there, and claiming the people who are not there are saying things like " sin does not matter "," just believe and do whatever you want, and get a free pass into Heaven". all strawmen.
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That is why their message is not heard, it can not b heard when there is nothing meat to it, God into thin air, because there is nothing for it to cling on it is bas d on false truths so it can not even convict anyone or get them to think.
only f there are people here who actually believe those things will their message have any affect,