Not By Works

loveme1 · Sep 3, 2017

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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]Romans 8King James Version (KJV)[/h]8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

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Stunnedbygrace, sorry for the delay but i know what you mean and I too have times where it is difficult not to despise those that despise me but by believing in Him who forgives us of much we can live by His Words.

GOD waters the seed He planted, let us drink plenty.

i just woke from a dream where someone hurt my husband and he was not reacting.. I was wanting the person to hurt as he had hurt my husband at the same time I could hear the Words of the Messiah talking me through the moment and calm came.

Quite fitting and good timing dream to have really..

Heavenly Father please strengthen me and others that struggle to forgive as you forgive us.

Cee · Sep 3, 2017

What does being angry at them give you? Is it a feeling of justice for being wronged? Does it protect you?

Knowing this will help you in why you choose to let it lead you.

Stunnedbygrace said:

TMS · Sep 3, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

You can't do it in your oun strenght but you can choose to let God do it in you. Focus on Jesus and as you come closer and closer to Him you will recieve His Spirit which will give you power to overcome. It may not happen overnight but keep praying and spending time in the word and you will come closer.

Rosemaryx · Sep 3, 2017

Hi Stunnedbygrace...I hope my story encourages you about the anger that you keep in your heart...Before I was saved, I was with a man for 10 years, he was partial sighted and was impotent so I believed...Through out our relationship he became addicted to crack, he changed, the devil was his master...Our relationship ended when two of my four daughters told me he had sexually abused them, at first I thought how can this be true, but then came to realize that abuse happens in more ways than penetrating someone...After the police investigated, he was left to go free, no evidence, I was left with many broken hearts, my daughters and mine...I heard he had cancer of the throat, I knew where he drank, what pubs he hung out in, my heart was so full of rage that my mind was on killing him, I would go to his home many a nights and put a brick through his window in the hope he would tread on the glass and cut himself because he could not see the tiny bits of glass due to his eye sight, this gave me my pleasure, but that pleasure would last for a short time before i was planning my next attack...One night i got dressed with half of bottle of alcohol in side me and found where he was drinking, I saw him with a tube coming from his throat from having the operation to remove the cancer, I walked over to him and put my face up against his so he could see me, I then put my baby finger around the tube ready to pull it out, it was truly by the Grace of God that I did not, I went home and fell to the floor, I could not breath, I thought " Why did I not pull it " I was left feeling defeated, useless, I wanted justice for my children, I felt he had walked away free...Then I started reading the word, I read it like my living water, everything I read about anger and forgiveness was my cure, did it happen over night, no it never, but i took a daily dose of Gods living Word and drank it...Anger for whatever reason can be removed only by surrendering it ALL to God...Today I still see that man in the street, and only through the Grace of our Almighty I can walk on by and say " Thank You my LORD for bringing me to freedom , thank You for Your Son who has broken these chains "...Let go and let God, He is our Strength in our weakness...I will Praise His HOLY Name ALL the days of my life...God has renewed my mind with His Word, He will renew yours too...May God bless you my dear sister in Christ...Amen...xox...

SovereignGrace · Sep 3, 2017

Well, I went to sleep saved and awoke saved. Hmmmph, can't lose my faith whilst asleep.

How does one lose their faith? They must have a hole in the front pants pocket, I reckon.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

"...when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." (Matthew 13:21 NASB)

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I have to agree. It is 'hate' that is as murder, not anger.

"15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer..." (1 John 3:15 NASB)

17“ ‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
18“ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people" (Leviticus 19:17-18 NIV)

It's okay to not like what people do. What's not okay is to hate them for it in a deep seated grudge and hatred for them.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Keep it in your breast pocket, close to your heart.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 3, 2017

loveme1 said:

We have been saying this for months! Some of us years! When will people finally believe it and act like it is something we do not believe?

eternally-gratefull · Sep 3, 2017

loveme1 said:

i call him lord lord because he is lord, I obey because he has proven to be faithful. I love him because he love me and gave his life for me,

how can you claim to understand grace and focus on Christ when every time you speak you speak of all this work?

Where re is your focus on jesus and what he did?

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

What goes a long way for me is remembering what a jerk I have been in the past. The point of the story in Matthew 18:23-35 parable is if we don't forgive and release grudges we invariably invite the same justice for ourselves that we want in regard to the other person.

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2017

PHart said:

If faith is not firmly rooted and established from the start, then "falls away" will be the ultimate outcome when affliction or persecution arises.

Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Superficial belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start represents rocky soil. They did not take heed in how they heard which resulted in the word NOT being firmly rooted or established from the start.

Then we see the results of this temporary, shallow belief - no root, no fruit, falls away, which does not represent saving belief. Luke 8:18 - Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

She's saying the same thing as you. With one difference.

What I've noticed in your view of the argument (which is common) is that somehow responding correctly as Jesus wants us to just happens automatically, and if it doesn't you're basically off the hook. I wish it was that way all the time, but the truth is you do have to decide to follow the Spirit and not quench him when temptations and trials come that provoke us to respond in the flesh.

As I've said before, I expect EVERY Christian to suppress his or her desire to hurt me regardless of whether they 'feel' like it or not. That's what it means to obey. The more you grow up into Christ, the more that obedience will become your 'automatic' nature. Don't wait around for it to become your automatic response. If you do, you will in fact be delaying your growth toward that goal.

All this means we have to purposely, for example, turn off 'Game of Thrones', not wait for heaven to split open and make you feel like turning it off.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

mailmandan said:

Except for the "does not represent saving belief" part I agree with this.

Jesus said the person represented by the second kind of soil believed. There's no reason to think he did not really mean that. But we do know, clearly, that this person did not end in believing--he withered away. It ended up as James' 'dead faith', which James plainly said can not save.

We can argue if this person 'never really' believed to begin with, or that his believing failed somewhere along the line, but Jesus himself did say this person believed, even if it was just for awhile. I've become very critical of how the church has turned so many passages of scripture to 'not really' mean what they say. It has destroyed Christianity. Jesus plainly said this person believed (Luke 8:13).

eternally-gratefull · Sep 3, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

Whoever breaks the least of the commands is guilty of the whole law,

don't focus on that, it just means your like the rest of us guilty, give it to God and move on, if need be, find a sister in Christ who can help you. Anything but focusing on that sin, that will just hinder you and keep you from doing other things,

thats why the law for a Christian is dangerous, it keeps them focused on sin and not focused on thfaith things of God.

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2017

PHart said:

You need to realize that not all belief is the same. John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, their "belief" is superficial in nature. Also, in John 8:31-59, the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" yet they turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to Jesus’ word, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in.

The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Don't misunderstand, stunned. You're not guilty of incest, for example, if you hold a grudge. That's not what he's saying. It simply means you can not boast of being a law keeper if you break one part of the law. It's like saying you're still a law abiding citizen because you drive the speed limit, even though you have a body buried in your basement. It only takes one infraction to no longer qualify as a law abiding citizen. Law abiding means obeying the sum total of the law.

eternally-gratefull said:

This is not what happens for me. The law speaks to me and moves me to do the right thing because it is written on my heart. And I delight in it! It's a joy when a situation comes up and a word of scripture rises up in me by the Holy Spirit to direct me in how to respond to it.

The danger of law is using it improperly, in this example, trying to keep the commandments without aid from and reliance on the powerful manifestation of the presence of the Holy Spirit (the old way of the law--Romans 7:6). We get that power by falling on him in utter helplessness:

"15Call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me.”" (Psalm 50:15 NASB)

Deliverance and power does not come from trying to tough it out ourselves. But you seem to know this already. I'm just trying to encourage you.

garee · Sep 3, 2017

PHart said:

And after he falls away in unbelief does he crucify Christ again and again to public shame as if one demonstration of pouring out His Spirit unseen in respect to the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

How many times would be enough to maintain a confidence to the end?

I am sure better things accompany salvation called redemption . We fear Him because with him there is forgiveness.He will redeem us new creatures of all our iniquities.Not one will remain outstanding.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

garee said:

He is not allowed to crucify Christ again. It's over for him. He can not come back to believing. This is assuming that the falling away of the second type of soil is literally a return to unbelief, which I think it is, and not just a hard day at the office. The third type of soil seems to represent the hard day at the office, so to speak, not a return to unbelief.

garee said:

It's not a numbers game. It's whether or not your life is characterized by obedience to the Spirit. People who have the Holy Spirit in them causing them to be different, obedient people (unlike what they used to be), know this well. You're doing things by the Spirit. Not how much. You're doing things as a matter of growth in Christ. That's the point.

garee said:

Yes, works, and love for the brethren, will accompany salvation. That's how we know we are saved.

Eventually, works confirm our calling and our election. That's why the Bible exhorts us to make our calling and election sure to us by how we act--so we can know if we're really saved or not and ready to face Christ on the Day of Judgment.

garee said:

....as long as you keep believing. Our debts remain forgiven as long as we stay by faith in that which forgives them--the blood of Christ.

garee said:

Absolutely true. That's why we should keep believing. Our confidence and faith is well placed. Don't stop.

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful..." (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

See it? Don't stop believing for He who promised is faithful. The surety of Christ is not that you'll never fall from Christ in unbelief. The surety of Christ is that he is worthy of your trust, your believing, your faith. That's why we are exhorted to stay by faith in that which is secure and completely able to save us forever.

PHart · Sep 3, 2017

mailmandan said:

The problem is assigning all who fall away to that of the 'water only' believers (as opposed to the 'water and the Spirit' believers--John 3:5).

Just because there are those who fall away because they never really believed to begin with unto salvation doesn't mean all who fall away were never really born again. That's the argument I'm resisting. The Bible exhorts us to keep believing and not fall away.

The true OSAS debate is whether or not these are warnings for a purely theoretical falling away for the true believer and that the warning itself is sufficient to always keep the true believer believing, or if it is indeed possible for the true believer to fall away. The way the warnings are worded suggests to me that it is indeed very possible for a genuine 'water and Spirit' believer to become an unbeliever.

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