Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

warning, warning, warning....not an ugly post without love....just an observation and from what DCON has posted in this thread and many others...

DCON has said that the Gospel he states says that that no man has any form of personal saving faith....

DCOn states Saving faith is the gift of God, which was and is Jesus Christ's own personal faith.....it is Jesus own personal faith in what he went through that saves a person and grace was God giving us that free gift of Jesus' faith...

This is why DCON will post this verse to support this belief when others quiz him:

2 Tim 2.13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

and DCON quotes this verse without these verses that go with it:

2 Tim 2.11-12

[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement:For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.





This is why pages ago DCON told Stephen63 a person could even deny Jesus Christ and still be saved....because it is not the deniers perosnal faith that saves him, but the gift of Faith from God, which Jesus' own perosnal faith, which saves you....This is why he also says that OT saints were saved the same way we are...because saving faith is not perosnal and to be exercised on a perosnal basis unto perosnal belief, but it is a gift from God, and it is Jesus' own personal faith that saves you...

giving that consideration, it would be a no brainer than to speak as he does that Cain was a work for it guy who had faith in his own works...it is a no brainer then to go on and on that no matter what you do, even deny Jesus and you will be OK...because Jesus faith has to complete what it started....

He cites Peter, yet fails to see Peter was under the Old Covenant ,when he denied Jesus...the New covenant enforces that if you deny him he will deny us....Just as Jesus said through Paul above in 2 Tim 2.12 and also himself in Matt 10.33-
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.


If it was all Jesus faith then he never had to die.....This theology was taught in many seminaries decades ago....and in some it still is....this theology disregards the Old Covenant....and places personal saving faith solely on Jesus....and for me, this disregards Bible truth, that God has given every man a measure of perosnal saving faith...and most importantly that Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God...

Now your lying.....I never once said a person could deny Jesus and be saved.......All I did was reference PETER DENYING HIM THREE TIMES the night he was crucified and no where did it say Peter lost his salvation.....man....for claiming the truth your sure lie alot and twist what people say.....go pull my post where I said what you say I said or be found a bald faced liar....WE WILL ALL WAIT

 

[dcontroversal]

Am not questioning what you are saying here...but can you produce those statements? I came into this later than others. And if true...we could hash them out with scripture. But, not by offense. Even if others offend, we can choose how we respond.

I never said what he implied...I have never said one could deny Christ and be saved with the implication he is stating....All I did was reference Peter denying the Lord three times and stste that no where did it say he lost his salvation.......just another slanderous liar.....

 

[Grace777x70]

I thought Dcon was speaking of allegorically shown to begin with Cain. It's how I took it anyway.

Yes...that's the way I took it too. Cain offered the "work of his hands" - what he had produced. Abel offered something innocent - a lamb.

It was the fact that God rejected Cain's sacrifice that he had the law of sin in him rise up and then he murdered his brother.

Both of them would have known that God provided a garment of an animal skin which needed to be sacrificed in order to get it's skin.

Abel came by faith in what God had done. Cain came with the fruit of his own labor. God said that Abel brought the more excellent sacrifice.

Hebrews 11:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

God calls "self-effort in your own works" as evil. When ever we depend on what we do from ourselves for righteousness - we will be in trouble.

Abel did the righteous deed by faith in God's way - not like Cain who did it "his way".

Notice that both brothers were "seeking after God".....selah

1 John 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

 

[Desertsrose]

I use to subscribe to Christian History Magazine. The article I posted was a reprint from that magazine.

I'm sorry you don't like google. I have found valuable helps from googling. From DIY's to recipes and to bible helps and teachings along with the available word of God.

I've read a different article on Wesley and Whitefield and they in some instances quoted from the letters, sermons and other research materials and it agreed with the article from the magazine as well. I can only go by what I've read.

You didn't reference where you got your information from so I couldn't check out what you were saying by any references provided. I had read previously about the two men, not just today and I never read some of the claims you made.

I don't adhere to Calvinism or Arminianism. I hold no hate for those who do. In fact I listen to reformed teachings all the time and arminian teachings except for the tulip when it pops up.

I did not slander you. I said we all need to be careful in what we say......and we do need to be careful. It was a generalized statement for all of us, me as well.

The comment about being like Whitefield was that although he disagreed with Wesley, he loved him as a brother. I was hoping to encourage you to do the same. To love the Wesley's for the men of God that they were.

If you took offense to what I've said, I'm sorry you did so. There was no evil intent to do so. The intent was to bring in what I believe to be the truth about the situation between the Wesley's and Whitefield. In my opinion, they all loved the Lord with all their hearts.

Shalom! ~DR~

Where's your apology for your slanderous implications?????



Yes, Google-ology. Not from books you've read, just an Google expert in 1 minute.

I'm going by the actual statements and letters. Their relationship was never restored to harmony.

Furthermore, your language and accusations toward me remain un-Christian, and frankly are implied lies. You're hatred for Calvinists is noted.

And I just took you off ignore a day or two ago for such behavior in the past...lol. Un-Christian behavior. Still.


Well, back you go there is no profitable engagement with those who imply slander on others.

 

[Magenta]

you and DCON need to compile a list of those who have stated we are sinless and perfect...

I have never stated this or that my works save me...on that note, please also compile a list of those who say their works saved them....

You both are chronic malignant narcissist bullies that have to lie about people and what they say in order to remain the smartest people on the whole board.....you both need to stop

I never accused you of being a sinless perfectionist. Those who peddle such often get banned, but they may come back, so stick around. Or don't. You have complained about this thread needing to be shut down, or for others to let it die, while you keep posting your ridiculous demands, false accusations, and distortions of Scripture. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop

 

[dcontroversal]

I never accused you of being a sinless perfectionist. Those who peddle such often get banned, but they may come back, so stick around. Or don't. You have complained about this thread needing to be shut down, or for others to let it die, while you keep posting your ridiculous demands, false accusations, and distortions of Scripture. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop

Amen to that...I stand amazed at how many push works in some form and or fashion and display a less than honest approach to what is stated by those who believe saved by grace dia faith eternally........

 

[preacher4truth]

Amen to that...I stand amazed at how many push works in some form and or fashion and display a less than honest approach to what is stated by those who believe saved by grace dia faith eternally........

Gotta love the one obsessed with "if you don't stop believing" and then says we're not saved by anything we do. Uh? LOL!

Jesus saves all that come to him, not just some...

 

[Cee]

Just to add some support to this...

God basically says to Cain, if you do well won't you won't be accepted too?

As we open up the story in Genesis 4 we see Cain means, "*I* have gotten..." This is works, what I have done, etc etc.

Genesis 4:1Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten[SUP]a[/SUP] a man with the help of the LORD.”

Notice she also says, "with the help of the Lord..." Lol, if that's not a perfect picture of works salvationism I don't know what is...the idea is we can do works (get on our own) "with the help of the Lord" after being converted.

Let's see how the plays out...

2And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. 3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground,

Here we see Cain bringing the fruit of *his* work to the Lord...

4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,

And Abel brings the fruit of the Lord's work. This is a perfect example of Christ being our only substitute.

5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell.

Cain's offering isn't ACCEPTED.. and look at Cain's reaction: VERY UPSET.

Elder brother anyone?

6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted?[SUP]b[/SUP] And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

And now we are going to blow up some theology boxes. First off the Lord says, if you don't do well won't you be ACCEPTED? If you think *YOUR* work makes you acceptable to the Lord you're flat out wrong. And the Lord also says, "If you do well..." Haha, so the Lord is saying here's what you DO​... You give to ME, what I gave to YOU. He gave us His love and now we give Him, HIS love back by loving one another. He gave us HIS forgiveness now we give Him, His forgiveness back by forgiving one another. And Cain *knew* what the Lord wanted because He was puzzled why Cain was angry when Cain knew what He wanted.

If you think the Lord wants what you "have gotten" and what you "have worked hard for"... good luck with that.

Because *PRIDE* leads to hating your brother.

You start comparing *YOUR WORKS* against your brothers... and ANGER wells up in your heart... and Scripture calls this MURDER. Lifting our works up is actually what the Lord calls *EVIL*.

And in case you think the names don't matter... look at the NAME that GRACE passed down into mankind through after Cain kills Abel... (The idea here was NOW WHAT... who's going to REDEEM mankind? If Cain isn't him and Cain killed Abel?

*SETH*.

25And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”

Cain = "I have appointed."
Seth = "God has appointed." (Sheth is Hebrew is Substitute, the full idea here is God appointed a SUBSTITUE.
Abel = "Breath" or "Breathing Spirit"

So let's see how this plays out:

Cain *I have appointed* my works... killed Abel (Our breathing spirit).... but God appointed Seth as our Substitute.

Yes...that's the way I took it too. Cain offered the "work of his hands" - what he had produced. Abel offered something innocent - a lamb.

It was the fact that God rejected Cain's sacrifice that he had the law of sin in him rise up and then he murdered his brother.

Both of them would have known that God provided a garment of an animal skin which needed to be sacrificed in order to get it's skin.

Abel came by faith in what God had done. Cain came with the fruit of his own labor. God said that Abel brought the more excellent sacrifice.

Hebrews 11:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

God calls "self-effort in your own works" as evil. When ever we depend on what we do from ourselves for righteousness - we will be in trouble.

Abel did the righteous deed by faith in God's way - not like Cain who did it "his way".

Notice that both brothers were "seeking after God".....selah

1 John 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

 

[Grace777x70]

Well done Cee!

I have to spread it around to rep you.

You have just described in detail the whole "works for salvation" mentality.

From them "Doing their own righteous acts" to be acceptable - to getting angry at the other brother that believes in God's way and acts in faith in His way.

We can see this played out in Isaac's life - the son of the promise - and Ishmael the son of the flesh persecuted him

- Ishmael was the son of "human effort" to do the will of God by Abraham's own efforts in the flesh.

Galatians 4:28-31 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

[SUP]29 [/SUP] But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

[SUP]30 [/SUP] But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

[SUP]31 [/SUP] So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

.

 

[Cee]

I just hope those who have this "works from their own hand" idea in their heads will repent. And realize it's causing them to align with the accuser. For those who think they are so spiritual they have forgotten the most important spiritual gift we possess. The one in which Paul says everything else compares in comparison to.

*Building each other up in love*.

Knowing each other by the Spirit, but how can we know each other by the Spirit if we're still looking at the works in *our hands* instead of the complete freedom found in the works of His hands? Focus is true repentance. If we want to know love, we must look to Him. Selah to those with ears.

 

[Magenta]

Amen to that...I stand amazed at how many push works in some form and or fashion and display a less than honest approach to what is stated by those who believe saved by grace dia faith eternally........

Well, I made a few statements saying, "I wonder about those who... " He included himself, and then blamed me for his narcissism! This he believes is part of being spiritually mature.

 

[TruthTalk]

Confused, but think I'm gleaning that you did not like that he saw the older son in a broader context and the entire parable in a broader context?

Yes you are correct; And why; because the first rule of interpretation is to bring out; "the author's intention of meaning and not the readers; the reason for this is that inevitably you will come to a wrong conclusions and wrong application; some people start with their conclusion and then application before there is any serious interpretation made.

There is one true interpretation of scripture but many applications; if you start to button up your application first you will inevitably come to a wrong conclusion; wrong conclusions end up being false doctrines. And that is the only point I was trying to make here. If I was wrong and offended anyone my apologies.

God bless

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Amen to that...I stand amazed at how many push works in some form and or fashion and display a less than honest approach to what is stated by those who believe saved by grace dia faith eternally........

i agree, but... what would you say about reproof?
/rebuke?

if we are talking about a brother/sister choosing sin

wouldnt it be better to say not to do it if we love him/her

 

[Cee]

To those who believe works are needed for salvation:

If an unbeliever asks YOU how are you accepted by God what will your answer be? And if the answer is Christ (which I pray it is) then WHY in the world do you believe you will be completed by YOUR work if you were started by HIS work?

Why do you think Paul was persecuted, what do you think the OFFENSE of the cross is, look at the story of Abel vs Cain, look at Isaac vs Ishmael, look at the arrogance of David when he counted *his armies*, look at the focus of Scripture, how do you have testimony, praise, and worship for HIM... when you truly think in your heart that its about YOU?

You say that obedience is important and it is, but do you NOT think that the Lord of glory actually creates in people a heart to desire His ways? When He says *I* will cause them to walk in my statutes, I believe His arm is long enough! Do you?

There is a reason that those who preach we need works don't understand that WORKS are LOVE. Didn't James say your religion is worthless if it doesn't love orphans and widows?

Here's why it's not clicking for those who want to preach works for salvation... because you CAN'T force someone to love. You CAN force someone to APPEAR to be holy though by going to church, read Scripture, argue theology, not swearing, not drinking, not sleeping around, etc.

But that's a SMALL part of what it means to be HOLY.

HOLINESS is about LOVE.

Don't get me wrong people will try as hard as they can to APPEAR to love... but it's by knowing HIS LOVE that we can fully love one another. Yet, how can you know His Love if you don't believe you're FULLY ACCEPTED? Paul says we go BOLDLY before the throne of grace!!! If you think holiness is dependent on you.... how are you going boldly before the throne of grace?

I know this is true! I thought it was about my works and when the Spirit came upon me, I would look at myself and my lack of righteousness... I saw my nakedness because I was focused on what I wasn't outside of Him... instead of what I am in Him! And when I realized who I am in Him, it wasn't about me, it was about giving HIM to the world. Because *I* have been ACCEPTED! And because *I* am ACCEPTED in HIM... I can bring other people into His acceptance. This IS the ministry of reconciliation!

Scriptures says its the Son who sets people free. Not the slave because the slave doesn't remain in the house forever. If you truly want to see people DO good works, teach them they are free to do good works. Because if people don't believe they are free they will pretend. And then they become hypocrites. And they have zero honesty with God. And He is the one who transforms us into who we are in Christ.

People who think its their effort that transforms them don't do it freely, so they don't have joy, and then they get angry at those who are enjoying God while they are working the fields.

Listen, I don't believe my works keep me saved. I'm not scared to LOSE my salvation anymore. BUT - I love to do the things of God. I don't *have to* do them, I get to do them! I get to love people, be kind to people, be generous, I get to read Scriptures while the Creator of Creation speaks to me His secrets, I get to live in worship and thanksgiving to the One whom every good thing flows! I get to have peace, I get to walk in self-control so nothing else controls me, I get to be lead by His Spirit, I get to share His gospel as He changes me and my life, and those whom I love and know. I get to disciple people so they can know how good He is, I don't have to do these things. I am a slave to Love because He is everything I've been created to desire and to pursue!

So if you're struggling, come out of the bushes! Take off the fig leaves they didn't cover you anyways. Let Him put His righteousness on you. And gaze at Him, walk with Him, and let Him conform you into who you truly are in Christ. Yes we fell from glory, but He has redeemed us in Him.

 

[Desertsrose]

Read Jude....false teachers are compared to three men...CAIN IS FIRST ON THE LIST....... <----HE OFFERED THE WORKS OF HIS HANDS

Hi Dcon,

Here's what you posted. [They should all.study the word plenteous (many) as applied unto those who push works....Cain pushed works and is identified as a false teacher in Jude!]

Who here is pushing salvation by works? I don't know of anyone doing so on this thread. If there are who are they? What did they say? I'd really like to know who they are.

No one can stand before the Lord, but by His grace. We're not even born in the natural, but by God's grace. So who do you know in this thread that disagrees that we're saved by God's grace through faith, not of works so that no one can boast. I haven't read a post yet that would disagree with that.

Cain is not identified as a false teacher and he didn't push works for salvation to anyone. Cain is referenced in Jude as an example of the character of these men. Not that Cain was a teacher.

That thinking is just not there. But if you don't agree, that's find. We can agree that we both see it differently. Maybe one day one of us will see it differently, and if not, we'll continue to see it in the same way as we do now.

 

[TruthTalk]

If you button up your biblical theology wrong; it will be wrong from top to bottom.

In addition to this; people who make wrong conclusions about a scripture passage will also make wrong applications. This is referred to by biblical scholars as, "Scripture Twisters," and it happens on this thread a lot. Insults and belittling someone's intelligence is usually where it begins; and it just festers from then on. Many divisions in the Church are caused by Scripture Twisters to their own destruction - not yours or mine.

God bless

 

[TruthTalk]

Besides throwing around insults and belittling comments, Scripture Twisters will offer you a deeper knowledge of our Saviour.

A counterfeit Christ is false Christ, which is really no Christ at all.

 

[PeterJens]

P4t thinks everything is either agreeing with him or an attack.

For him there are no just observations. And it is always possible to read what is not there.
What disappoints and hurts me is believers who claim so much yet heap abuse on fellow
believers like they are enemies. This is being a briar or thorn bush. It speaks of serious
spiritual and emotional flaws.

Listen to people like this and you will feel justified ripping into people and leaving them for
dead. This has never been Jesus's way. Paul was very aware of one thing, how to grow in
love and serving one another. So keen was Paul about this he was the example to follow.

So I encourage you to praise the Lord and reach out to others in the Lords Spirit. Amen

I am sure as normal these words will be called evil and twisted, but in this is the spirit that
speaks though clothed in light, its intent is harm.

 

[dcontroversal]

Gotta love the one obsessed with "if you don't stop believing" and then says we're not saved by anything we do. Uh? LOL!

Jesus saves all that come to him, not just some...

Yeah I quit responding to him....his theology denies the fact that Jesus BEGINS AND FINISHES OUR FAITH and will.complete the good work that HE BEGAN IN US....

 

[dcontroversal]

i agree, but... what would you say about reproof?
/rebuke?

if we are talking about a brother/sister choosing sin

wouldnt it be better to say not to do it if we love him/her

Sure...........the problem.....many cannot admit error...just like the other day when I wad accused of going back in the thread to pull a post to cause issues....which judged my motive and was a false allegation...I am in Australia and am sleeping when most of you are posting....he refused to acknowledge his error and publically apologize.....