Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Unfortunately Jesus is speaking here of bearing fruit, as He usually did in all His teachings.
For instance, even in Mathew 7:19.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Do "bad" trees which "do not bear good fruit" represent believers? NO. What happens to them? They are cut down and thrown into the fire. It's the same in John 15:6.

John 15:5-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me *(like the 11 remaining disciples)* and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, *(like Judas Iscariot)* he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

[Ariel82]

I have wondered about a verse for a long time so I may as well ask the opinions of all of you since I am finding you all to be a great help while we walk well in here.

It is the verses that say: Woe...it will be more tolerable or better for these or those unbelievers than it will be for you on the day of judgement. (My paraphrase).

The verse astounds me.
I have thought of it together with: If you didn't say you could see, you would have no sin, but since you say you can see...

I can't quite glean it though.

??? Which bible verse are you referring to?

If it's the one I am thinking of, I believe Jesus is speaking about pride versus a humble and contrite heart. God let's the prideful fall but a humble heart He will not reject.

 

[Ariel82]

Are we in the kingdom of God or is it yet to come?

The subject is not me but the kingdom of God. All sin is banished from the presence of God. In the kingdom of God there is no sin therefore there is no need of the law. The law shows transgression and there will be no transgression in the kingdom of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is the kingdom of God now or when Jesus returns?

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is a one time event. It is described as a new birth a Spiritual rebirth. Upon the rebirth into Christ the process of sanctification begins and is completed when we are united with our Savior. We are made complete in Him when we shed this body of flesh and are glorified in Him for all of eternity.

I wish you had personal knowledge of this event.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There are 3 tenses to salvation. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification); we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification); we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

??? Which bible verse are you referring to?

If it's the one I am thinking of, I believe Jesus is speaking about pride versus a humble and contrite heart. God let's the prideful fall but a humble heart He will not reject.

It's the verse that seems to say it will be more tolerable for the people of...corazin and Sodom on the day of judgement than it will be for believers (who are hypocrites and say they can see but then can't see their own hypocrisies.)

How is being cast into hell more or less tolerable? Hell is hell, isn't it? Are there areas worse or better in hell? How will that day be better for the people of Sodom than it will be for those who say they know the truth and walk in the light when the light that is in them is really darkness?

But it seems to be condemning hypocrites worse than it condemns sodomites...how will it be more tolerable for them on that day?

 

[Ariel82]

It's the verse that seems to say it will be more tolerable for the people of...corazin and Sodom on the day of judgement than it will be for believers (who are hypocrites and say they can see but then can't see their own hypocrisies.)

How is being cast into hell more or less tolerable? Hell is hell, isn't it? Are there areas worse or better in hell? How will that day be better for the people of Sodom than it will be for those who say they know the truth and walk in the light when the light that is in them is really darkness?

But it seems to be condemning hypocrites worse than it condemns sodomites...how will it be more tolerable for them on that day?

There are many "judgement days" in the Bible. Most only think of the Final judgement day when this world will be destroyed but in the Old testament many prophets proclaimed how God would judge certain nations for their sins...I am currently reading Amos and it shows these "judgements" of God where in God allows the nation's to be destroyed. Some he restores, some are only in our history books.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Dangit I have to go. I'll come back to hear what you guys have to say on it. I asked God to give me some work to do with my hands and He sure did answer me because I have more furniture than I can keep up with. Maybe I will try to figure out how to post a pic of the work I am doing so you guys can see it...! It's faux finishing on furniture and it's quite lovely! Anyway, I'll be back to hear!

 

[PHart]

The sanctified person in Hebrews 10 is a saved person:

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10 NASB)​

So let's look again at the warning that God gives to the sanctified/saved person who walks away from Christ:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)​

The saved person who turns away from the blood that sanctified him no longer has that blood available to him to turn away the wrath of God. He has nothing left to look forward to but the coming Judgment of fire reserved for the enemies of God.

For all of you who interpreted the sanctified person as being never really saved, remember that you said that the punishment being spoken about was the damnation of those lost people who never believed. So now that we know right from the context that this condemnation is in regard to those who were sanctified/saved by the blood of Christ, not those who never believed, let's not go changing the punishment being spoken about into a 'less than the loss of salvation' punishment in an attempt to avoid this obvious non-OSAS passage.

 

[graceNpeace]

It's the verse that seems to say it will be more tolerable for the people of...corazin and Sodom on the day of judgement than it will be for believers (who are hypocrites and say they can see but then can't see their own hypocrisies.)

How is being cast into hell more or less tolerable? Hell is hell, isn't it? Are there areas worse or better in hell? How will that day be better for the people of Sodom than it will be for those who say they know the truth and walk in the light when the light that is in them is really darkness?

But it seems to be condemning hypocrites worse than it condemns sodomites...how will it be more tolerable for them on that day?

This one?

[FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matt 11:20-24

Nothing to do with believers - Jesus calls them unrepentant...[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

All works of the flesh are "willful" sinning. When we have outbursts of anger - we are actively participating in it. The same goes for all the works of the flesh from malice, the slandering others in the body of Christ to hypocrisy, living a homosexual lifestyle, causing strife and division...etc.

The "willful sinning" talked about in Hebrews 10:26 is about the Hebrews going back to the temple for their sins being dealt with and thus rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. This is why there remains no more sacrifice for their sins because they are rejecting Christ's work.

Works-based belief mindsets like to try to use Hebrews 10 to bring fear to Christians but the reality is that we are safe in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. There are many warnings which we should heed about living from the flesh and the destruction it brings in this life but that is a different subject then Hebrews 10.

 

[LoveGodForever]

The sanctified person in Hebrews 10 is a saved person:

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10 NASB)​

So let's look again at the warning that God gives to the sanctified/saved person who walks away from Christ:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)​

The saved person who turns away from the blood that sanctified him no longer has that blood available to him to turn away the wrath of God. He has nothing left to look forward to but the coming Judgment of fire reserved for the enemies of God.

For all of you who interpreted the sanctified person as being never really saved, remember that you said that the punishment being spoken about was the damnation of those lost people who never believed. So now that we know right from the context that this condemnation is in regard to those who were sanctified/saved by the blood of Christ, not those who never believed, let's not go changing the punishment being spoken about into a 'less than the loss of salvation' punishment in an attempt to avoid this obvious non-OSAS passage.

These a complimentary

Heb 6:4-8,

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[Ariel82]

This one?

[FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matt 11:20-24

Nothing to do with believers - Jesus calls them unrepentant...[/FONT]

I think she is asking if there is different degrees of punishment at final judgement day?

She stated that she thought hell was universally bad for all who have been thrown in it.

(thanks for the verse. I hadn't had time to look it up yet)

 

[JIMBO43]

There is only one way to lose salvation ( and ironically it is all based on the Lord Jesus Christ - funny how that is a re-occurring theme...selah )

If Jesus fails as our High Priest who stands as us before the Father. He is called the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

A priest stands in the place and represents his people. Our High Priest is after the order of Melchizedek who has and endless and "indestructible" life.

When He falls and fails - then we will too because we are one spirit with Him.

Jesus christ has never failed anyone we fail Jesus christ... Jesus christs grace is sufficient enough for you 11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12

 

[PHart]

All works of the flesh are "willful" sinning. When we have outbursts of anger - we are actively participating in it. The same goes for all the works of the flesh from malice, the slandering others in the body of Christ to hypocrisy, living a homosexual lifestyle, causing strife and division...etc.

The "willful sinning" talked about in Hebrews 10:26 is about the Hebrews going back to the temple for their sins being dealt with and thus rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. This is why there remains no more sacrifice for their sins because they are rejecting Christ's work.

Works-based belief mindsets like to try to use Hebrews 10 to bring fear to Christians but the reality is that we are safe in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. There are many warnings which we should heed about living from the flesh and the destruction it brings in this life but that is a different subject then Hebrews 10.

You said it yourself. The 'willful' sin being spoken about is rejecting the work of Christ, not a bad hair day in the life of the saint growing up into Christ all the while clinging to the blood of Christ.

This isn't about driving over the speed limit because you're late for work, or kicking the dog for slobbering all over you when you get home from work. This is about willfully not wanting, or caring about the blood of Christ by which you were saved/sanctified. The sanctified/saved person who does that loses the blood of Christ and becomes subject to the wrath of God in damnation all over again.

Folks, making this truth go away through creative interpretation simply isn't going to change that truth. The passage interprets itself. Saved people will lose the blood of Christ if they reject that blood. Plain and simple. So keep abiding in the word you first heard and were saved by so you will be saved on the day of Judgment.

 

[JIMBO43]

[h=1]2 Corinthians 12:921st Century King James Version (KJ21)[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]And He said unto me, “My grace is sufficent for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly therefore will I glory rather in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 

[Ariel82]

Amos prophecies during the time two kingdoms when Judah and Israel were separate nations. Soon after his message Israel was destroyed as a nation and all its remaining people lead captive into slavery.

Amos 2
Judgment on Israel

6Thus says the LORD:

“For three transgressions of Israel,
and for four, I will not revoke the punishment,
because they sell the righteous for silver,
and the needy for a pair of sandals—
7those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth
and turn aside the way of the afflicted;
a man and his father go in to the same girl,
so that my holy name is profaned;
8they lay themselves down beside every altar
on garments taken in pledge,
and in the house of their God they drink
the wine of those who have been fined.

9“Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
whose height was like the height of the cedars
and who was as strong as the oaks;
I destroyed his fruit above
and his roots beneath.
10Also it was I who brought you up out of the land of Egypt
and led you forty years in the wilderness,
to possess the land of the Amorite.
11And I raised up some of your sons for prophets,
and some of your young men for Nazirites.
Is it not indeed so, O people of Israel?”
declares the LORD.

12“But you made the Nazirites drink wine,
and commanded the prophets,
saying, ‘You shall not prophesy.’

13“Behold, I will press you down in your place,
as a cart full of sheaves presses down.
14Flight shall perish from the swift,
and the strong shall not retain his strength,
nor shall the mighty save his life;
15he who handles the bow shall not stand,
and he who is swift of foot shall not save himself,
nor shall he who rides the horse save his life;
16and he who is stout of heart among the mighty
shall flee away naked in that day,”
declares the LORD.

Some would call this a "judgement" day.

Will have to read your verse in context and pray some stunned. It is a good question. Hope others will share their insights.

Hope everyone has a blessed morning. I have to work on a few sewing projects for my in laws. Tayloring a shirt for Nana and making a sun dress for my mother in law and finishing up costumes for the kids. Wonder how long it will take?

 

[mailmandan]

The sanctified person in Hebrews 10 is a saved person:

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10 NASB)​

So let's look again at the warning that God gives to the sanctified/saved person who walks away from Christ:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)​

The saved person who turns away from the blood that sanctified him no longer has that blood available to him to turn away the wrath of God. He has nothing left to look forward to but the coming Judgment of fire reserved for the enemies of God.

For all of you who interpreted the sanctified person as being never really saved, remember that you said that the punishment being spoken about was the damnation of those lost people who never believed. So now that we know right from the context that this condemnation is in regard to those who were sanctified/saved by the blood of Christ, not those who never believed, let's not go changing the punishment being spoken about into a 'less than the loss of salvation' punishment in an attempt to avoid this obvious non-OSAS passage.

NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

 

[Grace777x70]

The word "sanctified" means "set apart".

All people in the world have been "sanctified" as in "set apart" for the gospel. That is what Hebrews 10:29 means.

Hebrews 10:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.


Gold in the Old Covenant was "sanctified" - set apart for use in the temple as well as the priest garments.

If these Jewish people sin wilfully by rejecting Christ's sacrifice for sins they are insulting the Spirit of grace and counting the blood as a common thing by which he has been sanctified ( set apart).


Jesus blood is what cleanses us and the Lamb of God has taken away the sin of the world but people must believe and receive this truth.

So, all people are "sanctified" ( set apart ) for receiving the gospel message of Christ's work on the cross.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Here is another example of the use of "sanctified as in the setting apart for something."

Unbelievers that are spouses are "sanctified" ( set apart from others ) by the believing spouse.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

 

[Ariel82]

You said it yourself. The 'willful' sin being spoken about is rejecting the work of Christ, not a bad hair day in the life of the saint growing up into Christ all the while clinging to the blood of Christ.

This isn't about driving over the speed limit because you're late for work, or kicking the dog for slobbering all over you when you get home from work. This is about willfully not wanting, or caring about the blood of Christ by which you were saved/sanctified. The sanctified/saved person who does that loses the blood of Christ and becomes subject to the wrath of God in damnation all over again.

Folks, making this truth go away through creative interpretation simply isn't going to change that truth. The passage interprets itself. Saved people will lose the blood of Christ if they reject that blood. Plain and simple.

I believe there is no hole too deep or darkness to far that God can't reach and save some one from. Do you agree?


If you do then if a person rejects God and rebels, can God teach out and save that person even though he/she turned their back upon Him?

I know some people who rejected God, cursed Him out of anger and grief because they lost a loved one and they blamed God. They walked away and rebelled, but God still reached out and healed that person. He walked with them through that dark valley in their lives and placed them on the mountaintop.

God didn't abandon them even when they walked away from Him.

Perhaps there might be some people who reject God and walk away from Him, but I don't think we should write them off as hell bound. I believe God calls us to go after the lost sheep and bring them back home to Him, would you agree or disagree?

 

[Ariel82]

PHart, you asked for someone who teaches a false works based gospel...saw this thread by a Muslim recruiter today..,i believe Islam teaches a works based false gospel.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/156181-covenants-mohammed.html