Not By Works

JIMBO43 · Aug 2, 2017

I cannot see Skippy's posts because he is taking a long train ride to iggy land...but I saw his quote...that believing is just mental assent...

Matthew 21:22

"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

John 20:31

but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John 20:29

Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed

John 6:47 Verse Concepts

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Mark 9:23 Verse Concepts

And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes."

Romans 10:17 Verse Concepts

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

James 2:19 Verse Concepts

You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Acts 16:31 Verse Concepts

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

2 Corinthians 4:13 Verse Concepts

But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,

1 John 3:23 Verse Concepts

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Romans 10:11 Verse Concepts

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

John 14:1 Verse Concepts

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.

Hebrews 11:1 Verse Concepts

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Romans 10:9 Verse Concepts

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

John 6:29 Verse Concepts

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 11:40 Verse Concepts

Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

Mark 5:36 Verse Concepts

But Jesus, overhearing what was being spoken, said to the synagogue official, "Do not be afraid any longer, only believe."

1 Peter 1:8 Verse Concepts

and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

Romans 10:10 Verse Concepts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Matthew 18:19 Verse Concepts

"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 6:16 Verse Concepts

in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Hebrews 11:6 Verse Concepts

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Verse Concepts

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Mark 1:15 Verse Concepts

and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

James 1:6 Verse Concepts

But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.

John 3:36 Verse Concepts

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Mark 16:16 Verse Concepts

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

2 Corinthians 5:7 Verse Concepts

for we walk by faith, not by sight--

2 Corinthians 4:18 Verse Concepts

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Romans 15:13 Verse Concepts

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:45 Verse Concepts

"And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."

source for bible verses for all to see is:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Believing

may i just add we should meditate on the law day and night

"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth,but you shall meditate on it day and night,sothat you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous ,and then you will have success.

terry_newyork_usa · Aug 2, 2017

He's commending those who continue to believe Einstein.

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

FranC said:

1. Do the demons trust Christ, are they assured Christ is right, and they are wrong? do they trust God is right, and satan is wrong? Wil they put their lives in the hand of Christ?

However, they KNOW (believe) he is the christ.

2. John 3: 16, Whoever believes, This is more than a mental ascent, this is an assurance that what God says concerning the gospel is true. It is not just an agreement, it is putting your life in the hand of Christ.

It is an English language issue, Your not understanding that belief has a long range of possible definitions, From mental agreement, to full assurance, and this can be used to translate in all these areas.

Faith on the other hand, is more than mental ascent, it is a trust or assurance in the one your placing your faith in.

Faith does not fit in some areas in our language, You do not say whoever faiths in him, has eternal life, You use the best word, which would be belief. Context and proper interpretation of the word must however be used.

I hope you do not think a person who believes Jesus died on the cross is saved and given eternal life based on that fact, even though they do not trust the the gospel and all it says.

stonesoffire · Aug 2, 2017

FranC said:

I believe I already said it but will try it differently now. No pun..

Believe is what we "do" when we hear the gospel. Is this of us or is it of God. I would say it is both. We hear, but He opens the ear...we see, but He reveals. Just an addon there.

So in believing we receive the gospel message of salvation. Upon our belief, light of understanding (Spirit of Christ) pierces the stony heart which we are born with, and we are changed. New birth...one begins to wilt and die, the other is lifed by above.

Faith is given. It's a gift which is a measure at first. I think it's the same amount with us all, but growth depends on what we do with the substance of it. For it is a supernatural "item" in the heavenlies, and as I said...has power with God.

Sorry for the length of the post.

stonesoffire · Aug 2, 2017

EG

that's a good way to explain. Demons do know God. So mental assent would be to know what is, but reject it.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

Meggido said:

Skippy, Another slam. And probably another report. You do not give up do you?

By the way, the highlighted point above PROVES there is a difference between mere belief and true faith.

Next??

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

BillG said:

I would say that believe/belief and faith with regard to salvation are intrinsically connected.

Belief is to be accept something/someone exists and is true even without proof.
Faith is then to have complete trust in that something/someone.

It is intersting though that one can believe and trust

John 12:42-50
Walk in the Light
42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

I would say that belief/faith is encompassed as belief is to accept the claims of Jesus, his death and resurrection then place place faith in him. As a result then actions will follow.

To me we are justified/saved by faith alone without good works
As a result actions will follow.

To me Paul & James are not conflicting each other, rather they complement each other.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To me we need to be very very careful indeed to judge people based on the bar/level we set that determines works/obedience.
And whether they have true saving faith.

Gods kids grow at a different pace.
Immaturity should lead to maturity.
Some take longer to grow up than others and some may remain immature but still have faith in Jesus.

To me the problem is that it is so so easy to say "Just grow up God as commanded this, stop sinning and do good works" then leave it at that.

That is so so wrong.

We need to come alongside with love and Godly wisdom.

We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes of someone who says they have placed faith in Jesus yet don't seem to be waking in that faith.

Some will want to pay the price for believing and stand firm but for some reason fall and fall and fall.
We need to find out why.

If we love our brother as ourselves (as commanded) then we will do this.
If they refuse then church discipline time.

If we love as required then we are loving God as well.
Jesus restored Peter, indulged Thomas, saved a man called Saul who was out to persecute him.
David knew that God did not want a sacrifice but a contrite heart.

Just my limited thoughts.

Yes, You can believe, yet not have faith

But you can not have faith, and not believe.

terry_newyork_usa · Aug 2, 2017

What does the word "believe" mean in the Greek language?

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

terry_newyork_usa said:

smh, This is supposed to answer my question? And what is up with all the name calling today? Does it make you feel any better? if it does then call me any name you want, I will be glad to serve you.

However, It would be nice if you would answer my question.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

terry_newyork_usa said:

I gave many examples. Was I wrong?

Funny how you all want to keep trying to argue, yet you will not even respond to the examples I gave. That will not cause me or anyone else to see things your way, it will however, lead people to question your sincerity.

Belief in the greek has many possible interpretations. Yes, it CAN be interpreted assurance, But it does not mean it ALWAYS is interpreted assurance.

again, Can a person believe in someone, and not trust them?

This sill answer the question .. Why are you all afraid to answer this one question which would solve this argument?

stonesoffire · Aug 2, 2017

Meggido said:

Acts 5.4-5, 8-9

[SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.

The Bible clearly said they died because they lied to the Holy Spirit...

~Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test. IMO...this is worse than lying.

JIMBO43 · Aug 2, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

it seemed to touch a nerve with your friend dc when i said moses made it to the promised land.. are you both suggesting people of the old testement where faithless ? because what coz the law has no power to save or the law is works ?

it silly man give it up. arnt we under the father until where saved ?? what your suggesting is the father has all those under his wing as faithless dead people ,,,,,,, you should give it up seariously your making this so complicated when its not..

BillG · Aug 2, 2017

BillG said:

It is intersting though that one can believe and trust

John 12:42-50
Walk in the Light
42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak

Sorry just wanted to clarify the above as the verses posted don't back up "It is intersting though that one can believe and trust"

I meant to say that one can believe and not trust.
Sorry if that caused confusion.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

stonesoffire said:

I like that and the man with the wheelbarrow example.

I believe the man can take me across the falls. But I do not have any assurance that if I get into the wheelbarrow. I will make it, so due to lack of faith, I will not take the step of getting in (work)

Faith causes works. If I have faith, I will take the step of faith.

If I do not have faith, but just believe, I will not take a step of faith (no works) because my faith is dead.

We can use the same with a person drowning, When a rescuer goes. He needs to have faith in that person and allow the person to save him, If he does not have faith, he will try to help the person, which is dangerous, and could cause both to die. As a member of the US Coast Guard, and my training, I was told if a person will not give me full control, I should let him continue to stuggle until he stops. otherwise, I could die in the process of saving him.

They person may BELIEVE I can save him, But if he does not have FAITH (at lease enough to let me do what I need to do (ie faith of a mustard seed) I wil not be able to save him no matter how bad I want to.

terry_newyork_usa · Aug 2, 2017

believe = trust in, rely upon, cling to, adhere to

If one believes in that sense, it is biblical faith. Yes, one can have mental assent and not have biblical faith. A biblical faith FOLLOWS Christ, obeys His commandments. John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Anyone who professes to believe but doesn't obey, is a liar or deceived.

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

terry_newyork_usa said:

Thank you,

and yes, and anyone who does not obey proves they never had faith to begin with, Their faith was dead, can that faith save them? No.

if you trust someone, You will do what they lead you to do. You will not ignore everything they say, That just proves even if you say you trust them, you do not believe or trust them at all. (decieved)

Stephen63 · Aug 2, 2017

Is this considered an attack?

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Aug 2, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Nope it is considered a warning, we are done and will let th mods handle it. Your free to do the same if you think you are being harrased

By the way, welcome back., you ready to answer m questions. Asked you a few days ago? Or not?

BillG · Aug 2, 2017

terry_newyork_usa said:

Whilst I agree with you because Jesus himself said it.
His commandments were summed up in two new ones.

I will also say and I will keep on saying it we need to be very careful in judging obedience.

I actually love your sentence

"trust in, rely upon, cling to and adhere to"

We all struggle with stuff, don't walk the walk as we want to. Stumble and so on.
What worries me is that I see people condemning others who do so and that is not right.

CLING TO

Genesis 32:24-28
24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

If we cling on then surely God will bless us.

FranC · Aug 2, 2017

stonesoffire said:

Stone,
I understood your explanation before.
My comment was how could it be possible to BELIEVE and not have FAITH.

So according to what you say above, there's a lag time between BELIEVING IN JESUS
and HAVING FAITH IN JESUS.

Since JESUS IS GOD, I wonder how long the lag time would be...

a day?
a week?
a month?
a year?

WHEN do I begin to have FAITH in the GOD I BELIEVE IN???

Not By Works

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