"Not by works" - false!

[posthuman]

Which part of 1 Corinthians 15:2 do you not agree with?

"2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2

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this is really interesting thanks

the closing clause in this statement is in an interlinear, "[if not / else] [vainly / in vain] [you have believed]"

isn't this corroborating the word in John's little letters that says those that depart from us prove that they were never really one of us? as in, continue in faith, unless you don't actually have faith, just a void, empty facsimile of faith?

 

[posthuman]

The potential for any one heart to retain and bring to fruition the word of God is contained in the heart itself. But it will never realize that potential outside of God's grace and mercy.

i'm not sure that the potential exists until His grace and mercy realize it. it's a bit of a Schrödinger's cat.
analogously, in the Copenhagen interpretation, the noble heart does not exist until God, the only universal observer, regards it. His observation is the source of existence. the potential is in all things, because with Him all things are possible, but the wave function doesn't collapse without an observer - The Observer, who sees all things. ((why He says, pray & give and do good works in secret, where your Father sees)) since the possibility, vis-à-vis potential, is only with Him (("with man this is impossible")) and the actualization only comes by His gaze, does the potential itself exist without His having first looked on us?

 

[posthuman]

Ask the Bible translators.
Some connect it to vs. 2 while others connect it to vs. 7 and 14.
In either way of translating it, you have to keep believing what Paul taught in order to be saved.


True, but how does this negate the fact that you have to keep believing the gospel to be saved?
It doesn't, of course.
You haven't lifted a finger, that I know of, to explain this to the Freegrace osas people in this forum.
Instead you just keep high-fiving them and applauding yourselves for believing in osas, even though you have little agreement with them in your osas beliefs.

i agree that faith which fades away is not saving faith. i would go further and say it is not faith at all, but only an illusion of faith waiting to be revealed as not-faith. i'd say the same about life, and argue it of the existence of the soul. life that ends isn't real life but an illusion of life waiting to be revealed in time as death; real life is eternal -- real faith is faith which endures, just like love is real, not fadeaway ((thanks for the line, @BuddyHolly))

 

[Judges1318]

this is really interesting thanks

the closing clause in this statement is in an interlinear, "[if not / else] [vainly / in vain] [you have believed]"

isn't this corroborating the word in John's little letters that says those that depart from us prove that they were never really one of us? as in, continue in faith, unless you don't actually have faith, just a void, empty facsimile of faith?

Some Bibles link the 'if' clause to verses 14 and 17. Others link it to verse 2 as you are doing. I'm okay with either one.

But regardless of which you do, it remains that one must be presently believing in order to be presently saved (the verbs are in the present tense). As long as you are presently believing you are presently saved.

But If you need to interpret it in a way that keeps it from violating Calvin's osas doctrine then you must read into it that Paul is saying that only the truly saved person will always believe. You can't get that from this verse. You must add that meaning to it. But what you can plainly get from the verse is that if you are presently believing you are presently saved.

 

[Judges1318]

isn't this corroborating the word in John's little letters that says those that depart from us prove that they were never really one of us? as in, continue in faith, unless you don't actually have faith, just a void, empty facsimile of faith?

But anyway, I don't think it does corroborate the Calvinist's understanding of 1 John 2:19 for the simple reason 1 John 2:19 CAN'T mean what Calvinism says it means. Because in just a couple verses after that John tells the saved, anointed audience he's addressing to not leave too. He wouldn't say that if he meant in vs. 19 that only UNSAVED people leave.

 

[Judges1318]

i'm not sure that the potential exists until His grace and mercy realize it. it's a bit of a Schrödinger's cat.
analogously, in the Copenhagen interpretation, the noble heart does not exist until God, the only universal observer, regards it. His observation is the source of existence. the potential is in all things, because with Him all things are possible, but the wave function doesn't collapse without an observer - The Observer, who sees all things. ((why He says, pray & give and do good works in secret, where your Father sees)) since the possibility, vis-à-vis potential, is only with Him (("with man this is impossible")) and the actualization only comes by His gaze, does the potential itself exist without His having first looked on us?

Does the Sahara desert only have the potential in it to grow things until it gets watered? No, of course not. The potential has been there all along. That potential is realized by the water, not given by the water.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, I'm well aware of how non-osas is alien to osas believers.
Most Christians simply are not exposed to any other way to look at scripture outside of what they've been taught. And so they think their way is the only way. I'm not saying that condescendingly. It's just the way it is in the church.

well for me i was taught and grew up in non-osas. but i read the Bible myself and was also raised not to discount the possibility what i am taught is wrong. 'let God be true and every man a liar'
just to say, it's not alien to me - you're right that it is for a lot of people, just like osas is also alien to a lot of others. i think it comes down to details of what's being defined as osas. i would say the truly saved are never lost, in the way i also hoped to intimate in previous post that the truly alive never die, but those who have only an outward illusion of life, do. i believe God created us so - spirits inhabiting fleshly bodies which physically decay to physical death, while the spirit returns to Him that gives it - such that it demonstrates this. life which is only life of the flesh, is eventually revealed as not having been life at all. life that is by the Spirit of God is eternal life -- who believes in Him ((truly believes / has a belief which persists over time)) will live, even if they die. the righteous fall 7 times and rise again, but the one who digs a pit falls in it.

make sense, i hope? i think the Bible defines true life & faith as things that are still life & faith independent of the passage of time. so i speak of it that way -- but it seems to me that 'osas' often speaks of life & faith that are only appearing as life & faith inside time, that is, only illusions of life and illusions of faith. i think this causes a lot of contention because of such things as misuse of language, poor understanding of language, or imprecise definitions of language being used. i mean i'm not sure you and i disagree very as much about this topic so much as we look at a few concepts in different ways and describe some things with a different vocabulary.

 

[Judges1318]

i agree that faith which fades away is not saving faith.

Why?
Have you ever honestly asked yourself why you think that?
Why can't genuine faith fade away?

i would go further and say it is not faith at all, but only an illusion of faith waiting to be revealed as not-faith.

Why can't true faith stop being true faith?
Haven't you ever really believed and trusted in something only to not believe and trust in it later?
Who wrote this rule that you can't stop genuinely believing/ trusting in something?
I suppose Calvin is the closest correct answer to that question.

 

[posthuman]

What do we do with all the exhortations and warnings in scripture to keep believing?

maybe the same thing we do with 'the foolishness of preaching' ?

 

[posthuman]

YOU'RE belief may not say that.
The new osas says you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved.
You have not been paying attention.

see i think i wouldn't agree that what 'the new osas' calls belief, is actually belief.

i used to work in an industry that called the result of subtracting inventory record from actual on-hand, "variance"
but mathematically variance = E(x^2) - (E(X))^2
those are totally different measures. they don't even have the same context; it's a misuse of language -- so the people in that industry constantly made all kinds of statements about variance that were wrong, because they weren't mathematicians and didn't have the right definition of the vocabulary they appropriated.

just like these people thought they were talking about variance but they really weren't, it seems to me the way osas is described, it calls people 'saved' who aren't and really were. i believe when God begins a work in a person, He doesn't fail to complete it -- but apparently a different gospel is taught in which a person begins the work themselves, and then fails to complete it. that work a person begins, i don't think is salvation at all. that's a facsimile of salvation waiting to be revealed as not really salvation.

 

[posthuman]

Does the Sahara desert only have the potential in it to grow things until it gets watered? No, of course not. The potential has been there all along. That potential is realized by the water, not given by the water.

what i'm saying is the Sahara wouldn't exist unless God created it, doesn't exist unless He upholds it, and doesn't blossom unless He waters it

 

[posthuman]

Why?
Have you ever honestly asked yourself why you think that?
Why can't genuine faith fade away?

because it is of God, and God is eternal. His name is "I AM" -- the self-existing one.
things that are of Him, like the life that is in Him, are things which are of eternity.

i know exactly why i think this, because Christ said the one believing in Him will never die; even if he dies, he will live. John 11:25-26. i connect that with faith. it is this kind of believing that i call "believing" and believing that is not this kind of believing, i do not call faith.

 

[Judges1318]

because Christ said the one believing in Him will never die; even if h

Key word: "believing".
You must be presently believing in him to be presently saved.

Calvinism (the old osas) says the believer will not stop believing. If they do, it shows they were never really saved to begin with.

Freegrace doctrine (the new osas) says you can stop believing and you are still saved no matter what.

Meanwhile, the Bible says the believing person is saved all the while they are believing. If you stop believing you lose the justification/salvation that believing secures:

"2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2

"2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised (for justification), Christ will be of no value to you at all.
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." - Galatians 5:2,4

I reject any doctrine that says these passages don't really mean what they say. All the 'not really' doctrines of the osas movement is what finally got me off the fence about osas. You have to make too many plain scriptures 'not really' mean what they say for 'once saved always saved' to be true.

 

[Judges1318]

what i'm saying is the Sahara wouldn't exist unless God created it

Well, this getting down to the core belief of 'once saved always saved'.
Calvin taught that true believers were purposely created as believers, and unbelievers were purposely created as unbelievers.

I reject that fundamental theory and see free will in scripture. Salvation is the dispensing of God's mercy and grace to reveal which hearts among men will love righteousness and continue to love righteousness to the very end of life when planted with the word of God and watered with his grace and mercy.

 

[Judges1318]

see i think i wouldn't agree that what 'the new osas' calls belief, is actually belief.

...it seems to me the way osas is described, it calls people 'saved' who aren't and really were.

You have the Calvinist view of belief, then.

...i believe when God begins a work in a person, He doesn't fail to complete it

So do I.
But he can't complete what he started in the person who doesn't hang around for him to complete what he started.
If they continue in faith he surely will finish what he started.
That's why we are exhorted to keep believing in the ministry of Christ that does not fail to complete what it started.

-- but apparently a different gospel is taught in which a person begins the work themselves, and then fails to complete it. that work a person begins, i don't think is salvation at all. that's a facsimile of salvation waiting to be revealed as not really salvation.

You are describing the 'works' gospel.
And I agree, the Bible says that is 'another' gospel.
One that can not save.

 

[Reformyourself]

You have the Calvinist view of belief, then.


So do I.
But he can't complete what he started in the person who doesn't hang around for him to complete what he started.
If they continue in faith he surely will finish what he started.
That's why we are exhorted to keep believing in the ministry of Christ that does not fail to complete what it started.


You are describing the 'works' gospel.
And I agree, the Bible says that is 'another' gospel.
One that can not save.

Don’t say the ‘c’ word 😵

 

[Chester]

But anyway, I don't think it does corroborate the Calvinist's understanding of 1 John 2:19 for the simple reason 1 John 2:19 CAN'T mean what Calvinism says it means. Because in just a couple verses after that John tells the saved, anointed audience he's addressing to not leave too. He wouldn't say that if he meant in vs. 19 that only UNSAVED people leave.

I John 2:19: KJV: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

OSAS people say this verse means that anyone who "leaves" the faith was never a Christian in the first place. All it really says is exactly what it does really say!

The people John was talking about ("they") left the church because they not ever really part of the church. So it probably does mean that these people were never really true believers.

But the verse does not even come close to saying that anyone who leaves a church in any place in any time was never a believer to begin with.

 

[Judges1318]

I John 2:19: KJV: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

OSAS people say this verse means that anyone who "leaves" the faith was never a Christian in the first place. All it really says is exactly what it does really say!

The people John was talking about ("they") left the church because they not ever really part of the church. So it probably does mean that these people were never really true believers.

But the verse does not even come close to saying that anyone who leaves a church in any place in any time was never a believer to begin with.

I agree. The people he is talking about were not of us. That's what it plainly says.
The mistake Calvin's osas makes is insisting this means anybody, anywhere, at anytime who leaves was also not of us.
Vs. 24 makes it obvious that John was not establishing such a doctrine.

 

[JBTN]

How does Hebrews 3:14 fit in this discussion?

 

[Judges1318]

How does Hebrews 3:14 fit in this discussion?

You have to continue to believe all the way to the end of your life to continue to be the partaker of Christ that you are now.