"Not by works" - false!
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hey.. I don't see this as losing salvation. This does not mean their original commitment to the Lord was not genuine. I think it means they didn't let the kingdom of God take root in their heart. nmw.
This happens all the time. When persecution or temptation or a seductive doctrine comes .. they fall. This happens in life to ALL of us.
I am gonna go out on a limb by saying "salvation" is not the only "gift" He has given each of us. lol .. so go for it.. show how you can GIVE any gift God gave you back. And remember this coming from one that does not run with osas or I can lose my salvation. I've yet to hear the story where "yep I gave that gift back to God.. just mic dropped it"
And where is this "TEMP" badge? Well we can boldly come before Him.. where? Not here on earth. And we ARE seated in heavenly places. What.. someone at the door.. ok give your temp badge back Its not salvation by works. Easy to run with faith and works for its written. If then going to apply it to salvation one must also tie in grace.
Not here to offend but so much of this is meat. And some of this talk can easily cause the weak in the faith to stumble,.
This happens all the time. When persecution or temptation or a seductive doctrine comes .. they fall. This happens in life to ALL of us.
I am gonna go out on a limb by saying "salvation" is not the only "gift" He has given each of us. lol .. so go for it.. show how you can GIVE any gift God gave you back. And remember this coming from one that does not run with osas or I can lose my salvation. I've yet to hear the story where "yep I gave that gift back to God.. just mic dropped it"And where is this "TEMP" badge? Well we can boldly come before Him.. where? Not here on earth. And we ARE seated in heavenly places. What.. someone at the door.. ok give your temp badge back
Its not salvation by works. Easy to run with faith and works for its written. If then going to apply it to salvation one must also tie in grace. Not here to offend but so much of this is meat. And some of this talk can easily cause the weak in the faith to stumble,.
Yes, the ministry and Sacrifice of Christ is perfect and everlasting and will never fail at any point like the Levitical priesthood did. That's why we are exhorted to keep believing and trusting in it:
"14 ...since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14
.
"14 ...since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14
.
E
Wrong question.......Why in your doctrine does it state that people can loose, forsake or forfeit the gift of eternal life when scripture states the opposite.
The believer is “in Christ.”
And as a result of being “IN Christ,” you have eternal life (1 John 5:11; 2 Cor. 5:17).
The GIFT of eternal life and the Giver of eternal life are inseparable.
The believer is “in Christ.”
And as a result of being “IN Christ,” you have eternal life (1 John 5:11; 2 Cor. 5:17).
The GIFT of eternal life and the Giver of eternal life are inseparable.
There is no scripture that says once you are saved you are always saved.
There is a passage that says if your heart is right you will retain the word and persevere in fruitfulness.
That's the only kind of believer I see in scripture that can even begin to make a claim to being 'once saved always saved'.
Now back to my question:
Since people get new hearts when they get saved, why do people stop believing according to your doctrine?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that believers get new hearts, and believers really can and sometimes do stop believing. But you were trying to use the 'new heart' argument to suggest every believer has the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower and, therefore, all believers persevere to the end and never lose salvation. But you must have forgotten that your doctrine says a person can stop believing.
If you ride in a car that runs forever, does 'forever' mean you will always be in the car no matter what?
No, of course not. It means the car runs forever whether you're in it or not.
Hebrews explains how Christ and the life he gives is eternal and everlasting, not your possession of it.
You won't possess Christ's eternal life without being able to lose it until you make it all the way to the end of this life in unbroken faith and enter into the kingdom.
There is a passage that says if your heart is right you will retain the word and persevere in fruitfulness.
That's the only kind of believer I see in scripture that can even begin to make a claim to being 'once saved always saved'.
Now back to my question:
Since people get new hearts when they get saved, why do people stop believing according to your doctrine?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that believers get new hearts, and believers really can and sometimes do stop believing. But you were trying to use the 'new heart' argument to suggest every believer has the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower and, therefore, all believers persevere to the end and never lose salvation. But you must have forgotten that your doctrine says a person can stop believing.
If you ride in a car that runs forever, does 'forever' mean you will always be in the car no matter what?
No, of course not. It means the car runs forever whether you're in it or not.
Hebrews explains how Christ and the life he gives is eternal and everlasting, not your possession of it.
You won't possess Christ's eternal life without being able to lose it until you make it all the way to the end of this life in unbroken faith and enter into the kingdom.
-
1
- Show all
No, this does not happen to all believers.
Jesus is talking about not believing anymore.
Believers can sink deep into besetting sins, and even entertain doubt, but this is talking about actually not believing anymore.
"They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
You can see their believing is for a while.
They fall away into unbelief.
Jesus is talking about not believing anymore.
Believers can sink deep into besetting sins, and even entertain doubt, but this is talking about actually not believing anymore.
"They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
You can see their believing is for a while.
They fall away into unbelief.
Peter explains that 'adding to your faith' is to "confirm your calling and election" (2 Peter 1:10), not earn your salvation.
But if in the process of confirming your calling and election you find out that you have no Spirit in you to produce the works that confirm your calling and election then that's a good thing. You can then get saved.
The danger would be that a person ignore the fact that they can't produce the works that confirm they are saved, because they have been told they are saved anyway when they really not. They have a rude awakening coming when Christ returns.
1 Corinthians 3:8-15 isn't about personal obedience in works of righteousness.
It's about what work you accomplish in the field and building of God.
Some water, some plant, etc.
You can be completely unsuccessful in leading people to Christ and you will still be saved.
But if you do not have a changed character you will not be saved; your unrighteous life testifying to the fact that you do not have Christ in you in salvation.
But if in the process of confirming your calling and election you find out that you have no Spirit in you to produce the works that confirm your calling and election then that's a good thing. You can then get saved.
The danger would be that a person ignore the fact that they can't produce the works that confirm they are saved, because they have been told they are saved anyway when they really not. They have a rude awakening coming when Christ returns.
1 Corinthians 3:8-15 isn't about personal obedience in works of righteousness.
It's about what work you accomplish in the field and building of God.
Some water, some plant, etc.
You can be completely unsuccessful in leading people to Christ and you will still be saved.
But if you do not have a changed character you will not be saved; your unrighteous life testifying to the fact that you do not have Christ in you in salvation.
-
1
- Show all
Notice that the condition for them to be saved is not that Christ really is risen from the dead, but rather that they stick to the gospel they heard.
"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
.
"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
.
As for your analogy ...
We do not run in the car..... the car (eternal life) is IN us.
...We do not run in the car..... the car (eternal life) is IN us.
Yes, we all know that he is faithful when we are faithless, but that very same passage says he will deny us if we deny him.
"If we deny Him, He also will deny us" - 2 Timothy 2:12
And back to the question: If you use every believer having a new heart to say that all believers are type 4 soil and persevere to the end and are saved, why does your doctrine say those who go back to unbelief are still saved? Explain this contradiction in your doctrine, please.
-
1
- Show all
Do not address me....your self maintained faith, self sustained losable salvation is contrary, not of God and anyone with eyes can see that you deny context, skew the truth, embellish the truth, falsly accuse and peddle a gospel that has no power to save....tragically you will not realize this until you find yourself in the many group, begging to enter based upon what you have done because in all reality you have not trusted JESUS....
He finishes and COMPLETES THE WORK OF FAITH IN US and he SAVES TO THE uttermost and KEEPS US BY HIS POWER.....you do not believe this and your religion is contrary to the bible regardless of how you try and spin it pal!
Good luck maintaining your own faith and salvation because LUCK is all you have when the smoke n dust of your gospel settles!!!
He finishes and COMPLETES THE WORK OF FAITH IN US and he SAVES TO THE uttermost and KEEPS US BY HIS POWER.....you do not believe this and your religion is contrary to the bible regardless of how you try and spin it pal!
Good luck maintaining your own faith and salvation because LUCK is all you have when the smoke n dust of your gospel settles!!!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Not sure why people can’t understand the words, “in vain” in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul's preaching and our faith would be in vain IF Christ has not been raised, but of course, that is not the case. Paul makes this case because apparently there are some who are saying there is no resurrection of the dead. (vs. 12)
In verse 2, Paul is saying that we are saved by believing the gospel and holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached confirms authentic belief and failing to hold fast confirms spurious, temporary belief. For the latter, the gospel may have been received superficially and externally, but was never firmly rooted and established from the start.
Hence the believed “in vain” - being without success or effect, to no avail, to no purpose or in vain, having no real value or failing to achieve a desired result.
Genuine believers hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and make believers do not and Paul is careful not to give false assurance of salvation to shallow, temporary belief that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel.
In verse 2, Paul is saying that we are saved by believing the gospel and holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached confirms authentic belief and failing to hold fast confirms spurious, temporary belief. For the latter, the gospel may have been received superficially and externally, but was never firmly rooted and established from the start.
Hence the believed “in vain” - being without success or effect, to no avail, to no purpose or in vain, having no real value or failing to achieve a desired result.
Genuine believers hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and make believers do not and Paul is careful not to give false assurance of salvation to shallow, temporary belief that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel.
-
2
- Show all
Ask the Bible translators.
Some connect it to vs. 2 while others connect it to vs. 7 and 14.
In either way of translating it, you have to keep believing what Paul taught in order to be saved.
True, but how does this negate the fact that you have to keep believing the gospel to be saved?
It doesn't, of course.
You haven't lifted a finger, that I know of, to explain this to the Freegrace osas people in this forum.
Instead you just keep high-fiving them and applauding yourselves for believing in osas, even though you have little agreement with them in your osas beliefs.
Some connect it to vs. 2 while others connect it to vs. 7 and 14.
In either way of translating it, you have to keep believing what Paul taught in order to be saved.
True, but how does this negate the fact that you have to keep believing the gospel to be saved?
It doesn't, of course.
You haven't lifted a finger, that I know of, to explain this to the Freegrace osas people in this forum.
Instead you just keep high-fiving them and applauding yourselves for believing in osas, even though you have little agreement with them in your osas beliefs.
-
1
- Show all