...no man cometh to the Father, but by Me.

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#41
Thread Title
.no man cometh to the Father, but by Me.

this is that Scripture -----in the New testament ----John 14

View attachment 254765



My opinion is -------that in the Old Testament God dealt directly with the people ------there was no permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament -----Animal sacrifice was in place to cover sin ---the 2 death was prominent---- The Old Testament saints were deemed righteous by their faith ----which was shown by their obedience to God's commands ------the Holy Spirit came and went as needed in the Old Testament -----and the Old Testament Saints went to Abraham's Bosom which was called Paradise ----which was in the upper region of Hell -----and this is where Jesus went after He was resurrected I believe---- He was preaching the Good News to the Saints who then were taken and received into heaven by Jesus ------ which is in keeping with ---No one comes to the Father except through me ------

So to answer this Question ------
Has this always been the case, or did it become true at some point in history?
It came when the Word became Flesh and walked among us to Preach the Gospel of Grace -----shed His Blood ----was Crucified --Died and was Resurrected -----as that is when the right Faith could be inbirthed into the person by hearing the Gospel ---- sin was dealt with ---- the Holy spirit came to dwell in the believer making their Spirit Holy and heaven bound ---and eternal life was resurrected -----the 2nd death was defeated ---[/QUOTE]
I appreciate you sharing.
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
2,523
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#42
Most Christians can quote this verse, but when did it begin to be true? Has this always been the case, or did it become true at some point in history?
"....and the word was with Him...." yes, always true!
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
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#44
Example: do we still need to pray, as David did, and ask God to not remove Holy Spirit from us? I do not believe that is the case in our day and time ... but we do know that was the case in OT times ... Saul in 1 Sam 16:4 ... Samson in Judges 16:20 ...
Hi.

Let's take a closer look at the life of David, and see what we can determine from doing that.

1 Peter 1:10-12

"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

According to the Apostle Peter, the old testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them, and not merely upon them.

Pausing here for just a moment, what should we call someone who has the Spirit of Christ in them?

We should call them Christians because that is what they are.

Romans 8:9-10

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, and, in context, the Spirit of Christ is "in you", then he is none of his or does not belong to him. Conversely, if any man does have the Spirit of Christ in him, then he does belong to Christ, or he is a Christian, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness. In other words, we are talking about a Christian who has obtained righteousness through faith in Christ because that is the only way that true righteousness can be obtained.

Also, in relation to these old testament prophets who had the Spirit of Christ in them, or who could rightfully be called Christians, Peter said that they inquired and searched diligently about the coming grace which they foresaw in relation to Christ's sufferings and the glory which would follow thereafter. In other words, whereas we look back on such things and place our saving faith in what Christ accomplished in his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, they looked forward to such things and placed their saving faith in what Christ would ultimately accomplish on their behalves as well as ours. Either way, saving faith is evident, and the only means by which true righteousness can be obtained and one can be indwelt by the Spirit of Christ. In the light of just these things so far, is there really any difference between an old testament saint and a new testament saint?

David, we are told in scripture, was a prophet, so we can safely conclude that he had the Spirit of Christ in him, and not merely upon him.

From Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:22-36

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

The same Peter who said that the old testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them testified that David was a prophet, so we can safely conclude that David had the Spirit of Christ in him, and not merely upon him.

Furthermore, David not only foresaw the resurrection of Christ in what he penned under Divine inspiration in Psalm 16:8-11 which was quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost, but he also foresaw Christ's ascension back to the Father in heaven in what he penned under Divine inspiration in Psalm 110:1 which was similarly quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost.

Now, what would you call someone who had the Spirit of Christ in him, who foresaw, and inquired, and searched diligently about the grace which would be manifested through Christ's crucifixion (Psalm 22), resurrection (Psalm 16), and ascension back to the Father's right hand in heaven (Psalm 110)? Hold on. Before you answer, let us add this reality to the mix:

Psalm 110:1

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

This was David speaking, and he said that "the LORD", or God the Father, "said unto MY LORD", or Jesus Christ, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

David called Jesus Christ "my Lord", did he not?

Yes, as a matter of fact, he did.

So, here we have someone who called Jesus "my Lord", who had the Spirit of Christ in him, who foresaw, and inquired, and searched diligently about the grace which would be manifested through Christ's crucifixion (Psalm 22), resurrection (Psalm 16), and ascension back to the Father's right hand in heaven (Psalm 110), and I am supposed to believe that this man was not a Christian?

I am not buying it.

David was a Christian, as were other old testament saints.

They were justified or made righteous through saving faith in Christ just like we are. The only difference being that they looked forward to what Christ would accomplish through his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, and we look back to it.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,913
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#46
Because Jesus was the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham?
I think ultimately yes. The point I was suggesting is that not only did he understand what God was saying to him, he experienced that reality.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#47
They were justified or made righteous through saving faith in Christ just like we are. The only difference being that they looked forward to what Christ would accomplish through his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, and we look back to it.
I am in agreement with the first sentence quoted ... I am not in agreement with the second sentence.

again ... does the born again believer in our day and time pray (as David did) and ask God to not remove Holy Spirit from us? I do not believe that is the case in our day and time ... but we do know that was the case in OT times ... Saul in 1 Sam 16:4 ... Samson in Judges 16:20 ...


again ... does the born again believer in our day and time receive Holy Spirit in the same manner as what we read in Numbers 11???

Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


I believe there is a difference between pre-Day of Pentecost and post-Day of Pentecost ... you believe there was no difference ... shrug

.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#48
again ... does the born again believer in our day and time pray (as David did) and ask God to not remove Holy Spirit from us?
I do not mean for this to sound disrespectful, but I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer this question of mine:

Was David a Christian?

Yes or no?
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
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#49
I do not mean for this to sound disrespectful, but I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer this question of mine:
so you don't want to address certain issues which I have brought to your attention ... okey dokey ...

I will add another difference between pre-Day of Pentecost Holy Spirit upon believers and post-Day of Pentecost Holy Spirit indwelling believers:

2 Kings 2:

6 And Elijah said unto him [Elisha], Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.

7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two [Elijah and Elisha] stood by Jordan.

8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.

9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over

The prayer of Elisha would not be answered post-Day of Pentecost as it was pre-Day of Pentecost ... just sayin'
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