Ministry Of Deliverance

[Roughsoul1991]

(Parentheses mine)

Hi, Roughsoul1991.

First of all, "demon possession" really isn't of so-called "demon possession" that we read of in scripture.

First of all, "demon possession" really isn't the best translation of the word "daimonizomai" which appears 13 times in the underlying Greek of the New Testament.

In my studies I do not see any other word. What source are you using?

In the KJV, which is the Bible version that I regularly use, this underlying Greek word is translated as "possessed with devils" 4 times (Matt. 4:24, 8:16, 28, Mark 1:31), as "possessed with the devil" 3 times (Mark 5:15, 16, 18), as "possessed of the devils" 2 times (Matt. 8:33, Luke 8:36), and as "possessed with a devil" 2 times (Matt. 9:32, 12:22).

I still understand this as possessed.

This accounts for 11 of its 13 usages in the New Testament, but I believe that the other two usages best bring out the meaning of the word "daimonizomai" which is translated as "vexed with a devil"

In harmony I read it as both.

in Matthew 15:22 and translated as "hath a devil" in John 10:21.

In other words, "possessed" denotes ownership, and if we simply look at some of the accounts of so-called "demon possession" in scripture, then it becomes quite apparent that the "demon" or "demons" didn't truly "possess" the individual. Instead, they vexed, afflicted, or influenced certain parts of the person's physical body or psyche. I'll cite an example of this reality in a moment, but first let me say that your statements concerning demon possession always being in an unbeliever are patently false.

I'm not blaming you as the originator of such a false teaching because it has abounded in many so-called "Christian circles" for years, but it really is a belief that you'll need to forsake yourself based upon such scriptural evidence as I'm about to provide for you now and in consequent posts.

Let's start with the words of Jesus Christ himself:

Matthew chapter 15

[21] Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
[22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[25] Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
[26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
[27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
[28] Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Again:

Mark chapter 7

[24] And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
[25] For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
[26] The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
[27] But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
[28] And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
[29] And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
[30] And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

The first thing that we need to recognize from these parallel accounts in Matthew's and Mark's gospels is that Jesus Christ referred to deliverance (which is what this woman was seeking from him for her daughter) as "the children's bread", and NOT as "the unbeliever's bread".

We also need to recognize that this woman obviously believed in Jesus herself. I mean, she called him "Lord" (Matt. 15:22, 25, 27, Mark 7:28), she called him "thou Son of David" (Matt. 15:22) which is a Messianic title, she "worshipped him" (Matt. 15:25), and Jesus commended her by saying unto her "great is thy faith" (Matt. 15:28). Granted, she was there in proxy for her daughter, but she was definitely a believer in Jesus Christ who was seeking after "the children's bread" for her daughter.

The Daughter or young woman may not of been living as a believer. Same incident when the paralyzed man was lifted down through the roof. Because of his friends faith, he was healed.

δαιμονίζεται- vexed and under power of a demon

δαιμονίζομαι-demon possessed

Similar but slightly different. Most scholars translate it as demon possessed. So it isn't either or but both.

We also need to recognize that Matthew's gospel says that her daughter was "vexed with a devil" (Matt. 15:22), which, again, is the English translation of the underlying Greek word "daimonizomai" that is elsewhere translated as "possessed with a devil", whereas Mark's gospel says that her daughter "had an unclean spirit" which is the English translation of the underlying Greek phrase "echō akathartos pneuma".

Or both. Matthew was an eye witness. John Mark is assumed to write a gospel account of what he heard. But in God's inspiration of the Word. It again isn't either or but both.

A demon possession involves a person with a unclean spirit or 1. a moral sense: unclean in thought and life.

My point?

This girl obviously wasn't "possessed", as in "owned" by the devil, but rather vexed by an unclean spirit.

I'll stop here and allow you to comment on what I've said so far before addressing any of the other instances of so-called "demon possession" that we read of in scripture.

Of course, in less we are Greek scholars then we must depend on the translators and on multiple sources for textual criticism. Having multiple families of manuscripts throughout centuries to compare.

Our bodies are the temple and in dwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are like the inner sanctuary or Holy of Holies. When God's glory filled the temple none could enter due to un-cleanliness. God cannot even look at unholiness in similar to how Moses wanted to see God's glory. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. No true Christian can be possessed or vexed. We have no instructions in spiritual warfare needing others to cast out demons that are causing afflictions.

There is one instance where God allowed a messenger of Satan to give him an affliction but that was allowed by God and Paul wasn't getting rid of it.

But this is not a closed investigation. I'm still studying it. My local Bible musuam has the ability to reserve one on one sessions with a docent so I'm setting that up to gain further understanding on original language.

 

[Polar]

No true Christian can be possessed or vexed. We have no instructions in spiritual warfare needing others to cast out demons that are causing afflictions.

Well, I agree regarding possession, but our physical bodies are not the Holy of Holies. You state that Christians cannot be vexed/bothered by demons, yet scripture would not agree with you. In fact, scripture states the opposite.

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. I Peter 5:8

Why do we need to be vigilant against the devil if he cannot vex us?

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:11

The armor is spiritual armor. Why would we need to know how to stand against the wiles of the devil if we cannot be bothered by the devil/demons.

The Bible actually has quite a bit to say regarding your op. However just those 2 verses alone should be considered. If you choose to continue to think/believe you are free from hinderance from demonic forces, or spiritual gifts are no longer given, you make a choice.

God does not force people, but sometimes people are forced to seek God when their own beliefs do not suffice in the hour of need.

I'm just going to bow out of the conversation. All your answers are actually in scripture and not in opinions or even experience.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Well, I agree regarding possession, but our physical bodies are not the Holy of Holies. You state that Christians cannot be vexed/bothered by demons, yet scripture would not agree with you. In fact, scripture states the opposite.

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. I Peter 5:8

Why do we need to be vigilant against the devil if he cannot vex us?

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:11

The armor is spiritual armor. Why would we need to know how to stand against the wiles of the devil if we cannot be bothered by the devil/demons.

The Bible actually has quite a bit to say regarding your op. However just those 2 verses alone should be considered. If you choose to continue to think/believe you are free from hinderance from demonic forces, or spiritual gifts are no longer given, you make a choice.

God does not force people, but sometimes people are forced to seek God when their own beliefs do not suffice in the hour of need.

I'm just going to bow out of the conversation. All your answers are actually in scripture and not in opinions or even experience.

You would agree our body is considered a temple for the indwelling of God's Spirit? Where did that take place in the physical temple structure?

You state that Christians cannot be vexed/bothered by demons, yet scripture would not agree with you. In fact, scripture states the opposite.

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. I Peter 5:8

Why do we need to be vigilant against the devil if he cannot vex us?

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:11

The armor is spiritual armor. Why would we need to know how to stand against the wiles of the devil if we cannot be bothered by the devil/demons.

Let's be clear I didn't say Christians cannot be attacked by Satan's forces. I said the idea that demons can latch on to you and now needs a exorcism of some type to free the individual. That is not Biblical.
Spiritual warfare is but not in this manner as a Christian.

I'm just going to bow out of the conversation. All your answers are actually in scripture and not in opinions or even experience.

People here to learn including me but the problem with the quote above, how many views do we have on the tribulation? Baptism? The millennium kingdom? Which translation is best? Are all gifts still in operation? Eternal security (OSAS vs free will)? Etc.

You say the answers are in scripture but yet the church is divided on many doctrines and each claiming their beliefs are absolute. This is why we debate. This is why I push the opinion of others to see which hold up in Biblical scrutiny including my own beliefs. In the sake of truth don't bow out. Your interpretation and experience adds more insight into the topic.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I said the idea that demons can latch on to you and now needs a exorcism of some type to free the individual. That is not Biblical.

I read some commentary that referred to this scripture.

"But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” Jude 1:9 (NIV)

If you notice, even God's most powerful angle did not dare rebuke Satan, which I find very interesting.

This biblical scholar basically has the same viewpoint you do: There is great danger in addressing Satan directly, even if it is in the name of Jesus.

In addition to this one commentator, most other bible scholars agree that confronting Satan directly is a bad idea. For instance, Thomas Constable of Dallas Theological Seminary states:

"It is also dangerous for us to confront Satan directly and to argue with him since he is much stronger than we are."

I think that pretty much sums it up. In other words, nowhere in the bible does God give his followers license to rebuke the devil or his demons directly.

 

[jb]

speaking in tongues...

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it attribute "speaking in tongues" to a person who is possessed!

The Scriptures do not say that the man possessed (with demons) at country of the Gadarenes was "speaking in tongues", nothing like that is mentioned, indeed, when asked his name, the reply was "Legion." Mark 8v26-39.

It is ONLY used about Christians who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and who exercise the gift of tongues, and who are therefore "speaking in tongues" (speak with (other) tongues). Acts 2v4, 10v46.

Persons who are possessed (with demon(s)) DO NOT "speak with tongues."

 

[Blain]

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it attribute "speaking in tongues" to a person who is possessed!

The Scriptures do not say that the man possessed (with demons) at country of the Gadarenes was "speaking in tongues", nothing like that is mentioned, indeed, when asked his name, the reply was "Legion." Mark 8v26-39.

It is ONLY used about Christians who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and who exercise the gift of tongues, and who are therefore "speaking in tongues" (speak with (other) tongues). Acts 2v4, 10v46.

Persons who are possessed (with demon(s)) DO NOT "speak with tongues."

I mentioned earlier in the thread to take it with a grain of salt because i learned that from a documentary

 

[Polar]

OK, sure since you asked I will contribute if I think it will help

You would agree our body is considered a temple for the indwelling of God's Spirit? Where did that take place in the physical temple structure?

Our spirits are born again, saved or whatever expression denotes salvation through the blood of Christ. I know people have different ways of saying it; good that God knows our hearts and I do not believe He is offended by expressions some people are offended by

Our physical bodies are going to (sorry) rot but our souls and spirits will live on and those in Christ will receive a new body...I'm sure you know this.

People here to learn including me but the problem with the quote above, how many views do we have on the tribulation? Baptism? The millennium kingdom? Which translation is best? Are all gifts still in operation? Eternal security (OSAS vs free will)? Etc.

You say the answers are in scripture but yet the church is divided on many doctrines and each claiming their beliefs are absolute. This is why we debate. This is why I push the opinion of others to see which hold up in Biblical scrutiny including my own beliefs. In the sake of truth don't bow out. Your interpretation and experience adds more insight into the topic.

Frankly, the topic you have chosen for your op is much easier to understand than eschatology. We have to deal with the here and now; I guess we will know the future when we get to it.

The answers are found in scripture and posted 2 verses that directly deal with the fact the devil/demons directly interfere and actively look for the one they can 'vex'. I appreciate and use different translations and sources until I am satisfied that I have found what I can agree with. Which, on a practical scale, would mean the odd answer is not the one I will go with.

That's it for now. I have studied the Greek with reference to the interpretations of possessed and while I am not a scholar, I can take advantage of the published work of those who are. It might surprise you to learn, that the actual intent is not possession of the demon of the person, but actually should be stated as the person has or possesses a person.

Just how far demons can interfere in the lives of Christians depends on many things. As far as unbelievers go, well I think it is plain that it's open season.

Christians cannot be owned by the devil. We know this. However, they can and do 'possess' demons as has been stated by several already. I will try to get back later and post about that.

I understand that some denoms will teach that demons cannot enter or even bother a Christian and that is not correct. We do have authority over these things, but people living in ongoing sin may very well have the issues they have because of that sin and they will not have the authority over the sin they cherish.

 

[Polar]

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it attribute "speaking in tongues" to a person who is possessed!

The Scriptures do not say that the man possessed (with demons) at country of the Gadarenes was "speaking in tongues", nothing like that is mentioned, indeed, when asked his name, the reply was "Legion." Mark 8v26-39.

It is ONLY used about Christians who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and who exercise the gift of tongues, and who are therefore "speaking in tongues" (speak with (other) tongues). Acts 2v4, 10v46.

Persons who are possessed (with demon(s)) DO NOT "speak with tongues."

Well this might start a conflagration, but there are demonic tongues and I am pretty sure not all Christians actually have the true gift of tongues. You are right in stating the Bible only makes reference to actual tongues BECAUSE Paul is refuting what is going on in the Corinthian church and he is explaining/teaching, the proper usage of the gift(s).

I have heard 'Christians' mimicking tongues and it is grating and not the true gift. There are many documented cases of people taken over by demons where they are speaking in a language they do not know.

I think when the gift is not used according to the blueprint in scripture, opportunity for demonic activity is there and that would go towards explaining why there are so many fake prophecies and strange goings on in (especially) large charismatic or Pentecostal churches. If we are going to be honest, tongues are a very misused and abused gift and anyone can go blah blah blah and if 400 people are going blah blah blah out loud in a church, they are going AGAINST the correct use of tongues.

I have had encounters with 'witches' and they do speak in tongues. The devil loves to imitate and he enjoys the circus in many churches that do not obey scripture and think all manifestations or experiences are of God. Discernment is out the window and has hit the ground hard in many many cases.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

OK, sure since you asked I will contribute if I think it will help

they have because of that sin and they will not have the authority over the sin they cherish.

OK, sure since you asked I will contribute if I think it will help



Our spirits are born again, saved or whatever expression denotes salvation through the blood of Christ. I know people have different ways of saying it; good that God knows our hearts and I do not believe He is offended by expressions some people are offended by

Our physical bodies are going to (sorry) rot but our souls and spirits will live on and those in Christ will receive a new body...I'm sure you know this.

I reference the physical body as a temple because Paul called it that.

Frankly, the topic you have chosen for your op is much easier to understand than eschatology. We have to deal with the here and now; I guess we will know the future when we get to it.

It is only easy if you have experienced all the gifts versus text book knowledge of each gift.

The answers are found in scripture and posted 2 verses that directly deal with the fact the devil/demons directly interfere and actively look for the one they can 'vex'.

Yes but can that one be possessed as a Christian? Attacked sure, tempted sure, but possessed?

I appreciate and use different translations and sources until I am satisfied that I have found what I can agree with. Which, on a practical scale, would mean the odd answer is not the one I will go with.

For me it is not so much finding what I agree with but finding what is most accurate to textual criticism, language, context or hermeneutics.

That's it for now. I have studied the Greek with reference to the interpretations of possessed and while I am not a scholar, I can take advantage of the published work of those who are. It might surprise you to learn, that the actual intent is not possession of the demon of the person, but actually should be stated as the person has or possesses a person.

Is there a difference?

Just how far demons can interfere in the lives of Christians depends on many things. As far as unbelievers go, well I think it is plain that it's open season.

Christians cannot be owned by the devil. We know this.

Agree.

However, they can and do 'possess' demons as has been stated by several already. I will try to get back later and post about that.

Not so sure about this may have to be defined better.

I understand that some denoms will teach that demons cannot enter or even bother a Christian and that is not correct.

Enter or possess I'm not sure about.

Bother, absolutely yes.

We do have authority over these things, but people living in ongoing sin may very well have the issues they have because of that sin and they will not have the authority over the sin they cherish.

We have absolute authority given to us by Jesus.

If they repent and turn away from an ongoing sin then with a true heart God's Spirit will absolutely move to give them the strength to resist. But they must put on the whole armor of God. God knows if someone truly wants freedom.

 

[Polar]

I reference the physical body as a temple because Paul called it that.

Well yes of course. As we know our flesh is corruptible (those new bodies sound good to me), he meant that the physical should honor the fact that the incorruptible is housed by this temporary body. Again, he was writing to the Corinthians and besides the difficulties with adhering to proper use of tongues, they also had on ongoing case of sexual perversion with a man sleeping with his father's wife (assuming not his mother)

So, Paul addresses the sexual sin with the following (presumably that was not the only sin but that one, Paul said, was something even unbelievers would raise their eyebrows at; they also had issues with suing one another in court and Paul addresses that also) “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body . I Cor. 6: 19-20*

*Sexual immorality is actually reported among you, and sexual immorality such as is not even among the pagans, so as for one to have the wife of the father. I Cor. 5:1

So we see that Paul says to honor God with our body. Shakespeare would have said: To sin or not sin; that is the question.

It is only easy if you have experienced all the gifts versus text book knowledge of each gift.

I would still say that this subject is clearer than eschatology and seems to be divided into two camps...cessationists and non-cessationist; keeping in mind that a cessationist will tell you that only 3 gifts are now out of use but they seem to agree with those of practical application and hesitate where a gift must, by its very character, be of spiritual origin. ie: I can say I am a teacher (not saying I am) and that is no problem. If I say I speak in tongues or I am prophetic, that, is not acceptable for a cessationist in most cases.

The gifts are listed and they are given for the edification of the entire body of the assembly and on a wider scale, sometimes the whole body, which must be rarer I would think. The key is simply faith. You ask in faith; you receive. Questioning with honesty as the catalyst is certainly not a problem.

Is there a difference?

Most definitely. It would be error to state a person that does need help in this area is possessed and that word alone causes many to shy away from the help available. I don't suppose many would like to go for help and state :I am possessed. It would not be accurate anyway, as possession denotes ownership and Christians are not owed by the devil.

Yes but can that one be possessed as a Christian? Attacked sure, tempted sure, but possessed?

Well I have stated several times now, and again, I do not believe so.

Enter or possess I'm not sure about.

Bother, absolutely yes.

Again, no possession. Not the spirit, but many Christians are soulish and susceptible. Soulish meaning worldly. Does not mean possession. The spirit is perfect before God and that is because of Jesus. We are tripartite beings and our flesh is not going to be renovated; it is going to be new. Our souls are under renovation as we begin to follow Christ and learn to walk in the spirit (Holy Spirit's leading)but our spirits are as they will be in heaven right now and as how God sees us, through Christ. That is a whole other subject known as 'Our position in Christ' meaning in the here and now even if we should happen to sin.

We have absolute authority given to us by Jesus.

Yes, but how many exercise that authority? Seems many are exercising besetting sins. (no personal applications intended, just facts and I have counselled enough people and been in ministry in different churches to know that is so. Not bragging by any means; it is a sad fact. ) I have seen people set free from demonic strongholds and there is a change afterwards. I have experienced that myself. Deliverance from demons, casting them out, is not something to mess with.

We have the story in the NT, Acts 19, where an attempt at exorcism was enacted by people unprepared and not in the name of Jesus, who received physical wounds for their trouble.

Seven Sons of Sceva

13Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits. They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.

15Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house naked and wounded.

If they repent and turn away from an ongoing sin then with a true heart God's Spirit will absolutely move to give them the strength to resist. But they must put on the whole armor of God. God knows if someone truly wants freedom.

This ability to resist is another topic I think. It is not automatic in many cases because of the harm we do to ourselves when we deliberately go off the path.

The Full Armor of God

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition. Ephesians 6

What is the day of evil? Is it a general day of evil or just applied to our persons? Both? I think it is pretty clear from Pauls' letters, that there could not have been many cessationists or those thinking the devil minds his own business and demons are incapable of bothering anyone, as we have today.

I also think an extensive study on the armor would give a clearer picture of why we can stand and how we are protected. I say extensive because there are references to the armor throughout scripture, not as Paul is speaking of it, but in general.

That's it for now, but I will post later as I said I would.

 

[Polar]

I would add that I do not think the emphasis should be on the demonic, but rather on our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who defeated satan and the entire victory is His.

 

[Polar]

I am finding that I do not have the time today to post that other info that I said I would post. I will have to aim for another day; I have a bunch of stuff going on this week but maybe towards the end of the week. I won't forget. Sorry

 

[Polar]

Buried on page 4. Huh.

Here's some info on what I was talking about. I'll start off with some scripture

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Matthew 15

Interesting here that Jesus told the woman that expelling a demon was 'the children's bread' .

In Matthew 8, we read That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. So not possessed but oppressed. In other places we see 'unclean spirit'

The NT Greek uses the word daimonizomai meaning possessed WITH a devil; there is no word for possession in the Greek as we understand the word to mean. Looking up the word for possession in the Greek will give you the explanation meaning with and not by as I said just above. So the problem is the way the word is used. The other error constantly being repeated, is the use of the word devil.

There is but ONE devil but many demons.

The word daimonizomai actually refers to more than one condition wherein demons are involved.

As pointed out earlier, the NT Greek word daimonizomai is referring to more than just one condition. It is quite possible for a person to come completely under a demon's control. However, a person who is said to be possessed with a devil could merely be harassed by a demonic spirit, come under the power or influence of one, or simply have one. Contrary to what many believe, there were perfectly sane people in the Bible that were possessed with evil spirits. Take for example the man found in Matthew 12:22

"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw." You see here again, he is 'possessed' WITH the demon and not by the demon. In fact, the actual term demon possession is not used in scripture. It is a bad translation and gives bad information. The Bible says that people have a demon or they are demonized, vexed, bothered and so on, but not actually owned by the demon.

And the report of Him went forth into all Syria: and they brought unto Him all that were sick, with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, possessed with demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and He cured them (Matthew 4:24).

Demons in scripture cause physical ailments, spiritual suffering and do at times, cause the person to loose control of themself, such as the boy being thrown into the fire.

The Greek word for demon has mistakenly been translated as devil or devils in some translations, to further confuse the issue. The Greek word diabolos means slanderer and is always used in the singular when referring to the devil. The word translated as demon, comes from the Greek word daimon. Very interesting to note that the root meaning of this word is understood as 'knowing' or intelligence.

So as far as people saying so and so is possessed when so and so looks perfectly fine except at times he has an odd way of behaving in church or social settings, it would actually be accurate to say that so and so is under the influence of a demon or is bothered by or harassed by. So and so is not owned by a demon at all.

All of that is a brief understanding and really, people need to get away from using the word possessed. The Bible, in the original language(s), does not use it.

This was a very eye opening concept for me when I first learned about it and it really changes or can change how people understand the activity of demons.

Had a very busy week or would have got back sooner. I wanted to re-confirm my understanding so went back and made sure I had the wording right.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Buried on page 4. Huh.

Here's some info on what I was talking about. I'll start off with some scripture

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Matthew 15

Interesting here that Jesus told the woman that expelling a demon was 'the children's bread' .

In Matthew 8, we read That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. So not possessed but oppressed. In other places we see 'unclean spirit'

The NT Greek uses the word daimonizomai meaning possessed WITH a devil; there is no word for possession in the Greek as we understand the word to mean. Looking up the word for possession in the Greek will give you the explanation meaning with and not by as I said just above. So the problem is the way the word is used. The other error constantly being repeated, is the use of the word devil.

There is but ONE devil but many demons.

The word daimonizomai actually refers to more than one condition wherein demons are involved.

As pointed out earlier, the NT Greek word daimonizomai is referring to more than just one condition. It is quite possible for a person to come completely under a demon's control. However, a person who is said to be possessed with a devil could merely be harassed by a demonic spirit, come under the power or influence of one, or simply have one. Contrary to what many believe, there were perfectly sane people in the Bible that were possessed with evil spirits. Take for example the man found in Matthew 12:22

"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw." You see here again, he is 'possessed' WITH the demon and not by the demon. In fact, the actual term demon possession is not used in scripture. It is a bad translation and gives bad information. The Bible says that people have a demon or they are demonized, vexed, bothered and so on, but not actually owned by the demon.

And the report of Him went forth into all Syria: and they brought unto Him all that were sick, with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, possessed with demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and He cured them (Matthew 4:24).

Demons in scripture cause physical ailments, spiritual suffering and do at times, cause the person to loose control of themself, such as the boy being thrown into the fire.

The Greek word for demon has mistakenly been translated as devil or devils in some translations, to further confuse the issue. The Greek word diabolos means slanderer and is always used in the singular when referring to the devil. The word translated as demon, comes from the Greek word daimon. Very interesting to note that the root meaning of this word is understood as 'knowing' or intelligence.

So as far as people saying so and so is possessed when so and so looks perfectly fine except at times he has an odd way of behaving in church or social settings, it would actually be accurate to say that so and so is under the influence of a demon or is bothered by or harassed by. So and so is not owned by a demon at all.

All of that is a brief understanding and really, people need to get away from using the word possessed. The Bible, in the original language(s), does not use it.

This was a very eye opening concept for me when I first learned about it and it really changes or can change how people understand the activity of demons.

Had a very busy week or would have got back sooner. I wanted to re-confirm my understanding so went back and made sure I had the wording right.

Much of debate seems to be over the word demon possession in Greek. Like Jake Kail tried to defend these points in his book.

(One of the things that has caused confusion about the ministry of deliverance is the use of the term “demon-possessed” in most English translations of the Bible. For example, Matthew 8:16 says, “When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick” (emphasis added). The Greek word that is translated “demon-possessed” in the above passage is daimonizomai, which is a commonly used term to describe the influence of demons in the New Testament. The problem with this translation is that it goes beyond the meaning in the original Greek. A more accurate translation of this word would be “to have a demon,” to be “influenced by a demon,” or to be “demonized.”)
—Can a Christian Have a Demon?
By Jake Kail
Page 26

Jake makes no mention of sources for his opinion. And so far I have seen by majority in Greek the translation of possession.

(Jesus referred to deliverance as the children’s bread. Deliverance belongs to the children of God. It is part of what Jesus provided for when He died on the cross for our sins. Without the ministry of deliverance, the children of God are deprived of their “bread.”)
Can a Christian Have a Demon?
—By Jake Kail
Pages 69-70

In context deliverance is obviously speaking of salvation and not a ministry of exercising demons. Of course, Jesus came to the Jews first but due to rejection the dogs where given the crumbs (salvation to Gentiles).

Demonic oppression and possession definitely occurs but possession only happens to unbelievers. Jake tries to do away with the word possession to eliminate the thought of control knowing that theologically that belief doesn't hold up with being filled with the Holy Spirit. But he can speak oppression while still supporting the idea that possession is real for example,

(If you are in severe bondage or torment and do not have the faith to pray over yourself, it would be best to have someone else pray over you who has experience in this area and has a heart of compassion for those needing deliverance. By all means, break free!)
—Can a Christian Have a Demon?
By Jake Kail
Page 68

He first says if you are confident enough then cast the demons out on your own. Biblically though we see no one demon possessed casting out their own demons.

In the quote above he is basically saying if you fail or too afraid, then you can get others to cast them out.

It is a teaching of bondage while tongue in cheek saying you can break free. If you constantly live in fear of demons and demonic attachment due to pathways that allow evil in, which we all experience then conveniently for every ailment, every problem, and every sin they are left seeking deliverance.

 

[Polar]

Much of debate seems to be over the word demon possession in Greek. Like Jake Kail tried to defend these points in his book.

(One of the things that has caused confusion about the ministry of deliverance is the use of the term “demon-possessed” in most English translations of the Bible. For example, Matthew 8:16 says, “When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick” (emphasis added). The Greek word that is translated “demon-possessed” in the above passage is daimonizomai, which is a commonly used term to describe the influence of demons in the New Testament. The problem with this translation is that it goes beyond the meaning in the original Greek. A more accurate translation of this word would be “to have a demon,” to be “influenced by a demon,” or to be “demonized.”)
—Can a Christian Have a Demon?
By Jake Kail
Page 26

Jake makes no mention of sources for his opinion. And so far I have seen by majority in Greek the translation of possession.

(Jesus referred to deliverance as the children’s bread. Deliverance belongs to the children of God. It is part of what Jesus provided for when He died on the cross for our sins. Without the ministry of deliverance, the children of God are deprived of their “bread.”)
Can a Christian Have a Demon?
—By Jake Kail
Pages 69-70

In context deliverance is obviously speaking of salvation and not a ministry of exercising demons. Of course, Jesus came to the Jews first but due to rejection the dogs where given the crumbs (salvation to Gentiles).

Demonic oppression and possession definitely occurs but possession only happens to unbelievers. Jake tries to do away with the word possession to eliminate the thought of control knowing that theologically that belief doesn't hold up with being filled with the Holy Spirit. But he can speak oppression while still supporting the idea that possession is real for example,

(If you are in severe bondage or torment and do not have the faith to pray over yourself, it would be best to have someone else pray over you who has experience in this area and has a heart of compassion for those needing deliverance. By all means, break free!)
—Can a Christian Have a Demon?
By Jake Kail
Page 68

He first says if you are confident enough then cast the demons out on your own. Biblically though we see no one demon possessed casting out their own demons.

In the quote above he is basically saying if you fail or too afraid, then you can get others to cast them out.

It is a teaching of bondage while tongue in cheek saying you can break free. If you constantly live in fear of demons and demonic attachment due to pathways that allow evil in, which we all experience then conveniently for every ailment, every problem, and every sin they are left seeking deliverance.

Again, there is no word in Greek in the Bible that translates possession. My sources are from experts in the NT Greek. I think understanding this point in particular, is pivotal to understanding what is really going on vis a vis the demons.

I really do not want to compare with this person 'Jake.' I don't know him and I am not in agreement with all these deliverance ministers as the Bible does not actually call expelling demons a ministry separate from others. The indications are that believers in general are to have the discernment/knowledge/wherewithal, to deal with these things.

I would disagree that the majority of translations use 'possession'. Again, please remember that there is no Greek word for the way it is being expressed in English. I am not going to go and research Jake Kail. I have extensively researched the topic over a number of years and because of personal reasons and I would not go to a so called deliverance minister myself, but you can chalk that up to personal preference if you want.

Biblically you do have the authority in the Name of Jesus to deal with demonic attack; let's remember that Jesus has all authority over these things and we have none. I certainly agree that it can be very beneficial in some cases for people to be prayed for and not deal with the problem themself.

I am also well aware that many Christians do not even believe that believers should have any interaction with the spiritual whatsoever, I guess forgetting that God Himself is Spirit.

Since Paul says that we are not unaware of the devices of satan, it seems to me knowledge was available that maybe is not available today. (II Cor. 2:11) I have briefly wondered if we are not missing some texts regarding this in our Bibles.

 

[Polar]

Demonic oppression and possession definitely occurs but possession only happens to unbelievers. Jake tries to do away with the word possession to eliminate the thought of control knowing that theologically that belief doesn't hold up with being filled with the Holy Spirit. But he can speak oppression while still supporting the idea that possession is real for example,

Does it though? Again, possession is not a good translation.

It is a teaching of bondage while tongue in cheek saying you can break free. If you constantly live in fear of demons and demonic attachment due to pathways that allow evil in, which we all experience then conveniently for every ailment, every problem, and every sin they are left seeking deliverance.

I don't live in fear of demons whatsoever. They simply need to be dealt with and it is not a power struggle. It is a truth application.

I'm not sure what your are referring to here?

But he can speak oppression while still supporting the idea that possession is real for example

 

[SteveEpperson]

Biblically you do have the authority in the Name of Jesus to deal with demonic attack

For my benefit and others, could you please list those scripture references that state specifically our authority, in the name of Jesus, to deal with a demonic attack. Thanks.

I am also well aware that many Christians do not even believe that believers should have any interaction with the spiritual whatsoever, I guess forgetting that God Himself is Spirit.

This is a strawman argument. No one is saying we should abandon prayer because we refuse to speak to the devil directly.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Again, there is no word in Greek in the Bible that translates possession. My sources are from experts in the NT Greek. I think understanding this point in particular, is pivotal to understanding what is really going on vis a vis the demons.

I really do not want to compare with this person 'Jake.' I don't know him and I am not in agreement with all these deliverance ministers as the Bible does not actually call expelling demons a ministry separate from others. The indications are that believers in general are to have the discernment/knowledge/wherewithal, to deal with these things.

I would disagree that the majority of translations use 'possession'. Again, please remember that there is no Greek word for the way it is being expressed in English. I am not going to go and research Jake Kail. I have extensively researched the topic over a number of years and because of personal reasons and I would not go to a so called deliverance minister myself, but you can chalk that up to personal preference if you want.

Biblically you do have the authority in the Name of Jesus to deal with demonic attack; let's remember that Jesus has all authority over these things and we have none. I certainly agree that it can be very beneficial in some cases for people to be prayed for and not deal with the problem themself.

I am also well aware that many Christians do not even believe that believers should have any interaction with the spiritual whatsoever, I guess forgetting that God Himself is Spirit.

Since Paul says that we are not unaware of the devices of satan, it seems to me knowledge was available that maybe is not available today. (II Cor. 2:11) I have briefly wondered if we are not missing some texts regarding this in our Bibles.

daimonizomai

Again, there is no word in Greek in the Bible that translates possession.

Obviously we do not see English in Greek but in Greek we see words that either mean the same or includes a broad spectrum of usages only defined in context.
Daimonizomai is that debated word.

My sources are from experts in the NT Greek.

Who? What books? What manuscripts are they using?

I think understanding this point in particular, is pivotal to understanding what is really going on vis a vis the demons.

I absolutely agree.

I really do not want to compare with this person 'Jake.' I don't know him and I am not in agreement with all these deliverance ministers as the Bible does not actually call expelling demons a ministry separate from others.

Just pointing out he makes the same arguments.

The indications are that believers in general are to have the discernment/knowledge/wherewithal, to deal with these things.

We are given every defense and offense in scripture on spiritual warfare. Darkness cannot hold ground in the light.

I would disagree that the majority of translations use 'possession'. Again, please remember that there is no Greek word for the way it is being expressed in English. I am not going to go and research Jake Kail. I have extensively researched the topic over a number of years and because of personal reasons and I would not go to a so called deliverance minister myself, but you can chalk that up to personal preference if you want.

Biblically you do have the authority in the Name of Jesus to deal with demonic attack; let's remember that Jesus has all authority over these things and we have none. I certainly agree that it can be very beneficial in some cases for people to be prayed for and not deal with the problem themself.

I am also well aware that many Christians do not even believe that believers should have any interaction with the spiritual whatsoever, I guess forgetting that God Himself is Spirit.

Well there is also much debate on the accuracy of translation within the methods of critical text, majority text or Textus Receptus.

Since Paul says that we are not unaware of the devices of satan, it seems to me knowledge was available that maybe is not available today.

I don't believe this. Everything God intended us to know is in the Bible.

(II Cor. 2:11) I have briefly wondered if we are not missing some texts regarding this in our Bibles.

The Bible gives us the schemes of Satan in either example or teaching.

 

[Polar]

Obviously we do not see English in Greek but in Greek we see words that either mean the same or includes a broad spectrum of usages only defined in context.
Daimonizomai is that debated word.

No. (sorry I am not meaning to be abrupt, just straightforward). English lacks the nuances of Greek and for that matter many languages. I am sure, for example, that you have read or know or heard that the Greek has different words for different types of love. We have one. I can say I love that sofa or I can say I love my dog with the same word. Then I can say I love my husband and should we understand I am comparing him to the sofa or the dog? Of course not; we all know better yet the word does not change. In Greek we know by which word is used, the type of love that is being expressed. Again, you most likely know that already.

And yes, context is king in more than one way. BUT again, if you reverse it and try to find a word in Greek that actually MEANS possession, you will not find it. Translations using possession in the sense of 'to own', are just simply wrong because the Bible is not saying that.

Who? What books? What manuscripts are they using?

We are discussing just one word here. It is common knowledge that the word to possess is not the way it is expressed in scripture. We can ask the same question of the actual interpreters who obviously do not all agree. Therefore, you gain understanding from the Bible itself and we even see instances where God sends an evil spirit or gives the devil permission. The fact that the word devil is used so often when there is but one devil, many demons, but just one devil, illustrates the fact that the original has not been always as well understood as some take for granted that it has been well translated. We know there are quite a few errors in the KJ and we also know that some modern translations lack accuracy to the point they changed what the original meant.

The devil does not go about harassing everyone personally. Now according to scripture, he did so with Jesus but I hope we can understand why that might be. You might also know that the actual origin of demons is not directly stated in scripture but people assume they are all fallen angels. Well how could that be, when many are held in chains at the moment? Some believe they are the spirits of a pre-Adamic race and I am not saying that, but only presenting different views by people who have studied the topic and do not see angels as demons. Frankly, I do believe the original creation was in chaos (as per Genesis) and God set about creating as we understand Him to have done. But I guess I'm getting off course here.

Just pointing out he makes the same arguments.

I'm not sure he and I would agree on all that he states.

We are given every defense and offense in scripture on spiritual warfare. Darkness cannot hold ground in the light.

We are given general and not specific views on the spiritual darkness. In order to gain a better understanding, you have to go through scripture and see where references are made to spiritual interference and apply it to how that might work out in the time in which we live.I do not see how anyone can say we have specific instructions. They are just not there.
The best understanding we get seems to be how Jesus dealt with demons. He did not entertain them and give them room to act up. If I am correct, there is only one case where he asked the legion what it's name was and he sent them into a herd of pigs. I would rebuke any demon in Jesus name and if I felt I should, then send it to where Jesus directs it to go. They are all liars and I do not hold to the method of asking for a name or when it got in or whatever (as so many 'ministers' seem to do). People will literally spend hours entertaining the thing instead of just kicking it out or away. And I am certainly no expert, but I do not see that pattern in scripture.

Well there is also much debate on the accuracy of translation within the methods of critical text, majority text or Textus Receptus.

We are not discussing eschatology here. It is really not that complicated if one understands the basics of how the words in question are being used in scripture.

If you apply possession to every instance, then it becomes clear as to why many Christians do not believe demons can afflict the way they actually can and do, believers. I don't have time nor the inclination to write a book here, but if I did, that could be cleared up pretty quickly by the proper use of that one word.

As an aside, the word daimon is used of a singular demon and daimonion is used for plural entities. Diabolos is only used of the devil or satan.

I don't believe this. Everything God intended us to know is in the Bible.

Then you would be saying that every single thing we do should be in there and that totally leaves out personal guidance by the Holy Spirit. It's not a question of whether or not you believe you are allowed to think beyond the exact words of scripture, but just common sense IMO. I would agree that many so called deliverance people act outside of what the Bible does not speak to. For example, we have regression therapy 'Christian' style. That is, imagine a bad experience in your life and then picture Jesus with you in that experience and imagine things further within that experience so that it has a better understanding. The Bible actually warns us against that very thing!

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
II Tim. 4:3-4

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Colossians 2:8

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
II Cor. 10:5

The Bible gives us the schemes of Satan in either example or teaching.

Can you tell me what schemes have been used against me? or your neighbor down the road? We have illustrations, as I already said above, but direct application in that we need understanding and direction from the Holy Spirit.

This is a broad topic in actuality and has been studied through the centuries and not always with accuracy. Following is a post from a site I came across (not a Christian site) that has all kinds of info on it about many different things. This particular article is entitled
So-Called Possession in Pre-Christian Greece and it has some info in it regarding the usage of the word possession in ages past.

 

[Polar]

Source. This is not the entire article but you can read more on the site.