Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"
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A lie is derivative of the truth. You can't have a lie if there is no truth. You can have truth without a lie, but you can't have a lie without truth. Truth is a standard by which we measure everything and a lie is based on coming short of the truth. Satan is a liar, that is derivative, he is the father of lies, they are all derivative of the truth. There is nothing original or creative about him, he simply takes what God has done and distorts it.
I'm going to do the opposite of dumbing this down, so please pardon me here.
I don't know what you know and don't know, so I'm just going to say a few things that are coming to mind. I see it like this, Cameron, we like things to be categorized and broken down into parts. It helps us to understand things. But the reality is that the whole works together and it's all intertwined and interactive.
Also, we're dealing at root with a Hebrew mind and Text being explained in the NC in Greek. Hebrew is a very picturesque and descriptive language. Many thoughts, or emotions, or such internal things were described in the way the body reacted to them, how one felt, etc. And in Greek we have psychosomatic for the interaction between mind and body.
Again, not knowing what you know or have access to, here's a copy from the T.W.O.T Hebrew lexicon defining and describing the way "heart" is spoken of in the Hebrew Scriptures (I'm going to skip cleaning up the fonts). It's a big study topic and extremely difficult to remain in category if we think we're going to see distinctly separate concepts between the heart and the mind and other facets of man:
l¢b, l¢b¹b. Heart, understanding, mind (also used in idioms such as "to set the heart upon" meaning "to think about" or "to want").
Concrete meanings of l¢b referred to the internal organ and to analogous physical locations. However, in its abstract meanings, "heart" became the richest biblical term for the totality of man's inner or immaterial nature. In biblical literature it is the most frequently used term for man's immaterial personality functions as well as the most inclusive term for them since, in the Bible, virtually every immaterial function of man is attributed to the "heart."
Very few usages of l¢b refer to concrete, physical meanings. The death accounts of Nabal (1Sam 25:37 ) and Joram (2Kings 9:24) likely refer to the physical organ. The physical organ defined the location of Aaron's breastplate (Exo 28:29). Psalm 38:9 probably refers to the beating of the physical organ. Physical "innerness" is expressed by "heart." The deeps congealed "in the heart of' the sea (Exo 15:8) and the fires of Sinai rose "to the heart of ' Heaven (Deut 4:11). The usage of "heart" for a divinely given vital principle may best fit Job 34:14-15 ("if he take back to himself the heart he gave," writer's paraphrase).
By far the majority of the usages of l¢b refer either to the inner or immaterial nature in general or to one of the three traditional personality functions of man; emotion, thought, or will.
In referring to the inner nature, l¢b may contrast some relatively obscure or less visible aspect of man's nature with the more public side of his being. it may be regarded as an inner reflection of the outer man (Prov 27:19; RSV "mind"). Dream consciousness may be meant when the heroine's "heart" was awake though her body slept in the Song of Songs (Song 5:2). Statements such as "Why does your heart carry you away?" (Job 15:12) contrast the heart with the remainder of the person. However, in other contexts, "heart" expresses the totality of a man's nature and character, both inner and outer (1Kings 8:23; Psa 9:1 [H 2]).
Closely related to the above is the usage of l¢b as an emphatic personal term (cf. similar usage of nepesh, ±eƒem, ete.) The plagues are sent, not just upon Pharaoh, but upon Pharaoh's heart (Exo 9:14 ). Thus, Jacob's stealing of Laban's heart might emphasize Laban as the object of Jacob's actions rather than Jacob's subtlety (Gen 31:20; cf. RSV, "Jacob outwitted Laban"). Similarly, the breastplate of judgment on Aaron's heart may emphasize Aaron as the bearer of judgment as well as a bodily location (Exo 28:29). A variation of this usage is "heart" as reflexive: "Refresh your hearts" for "Refresh yourselves" (Gen 18:5) and "strengthen your heart" for "strengthen yourself (with food)" (Jud 19:5).
The whole spectrum of emotion is attributed to the heart. Examples of positive emotions are the following: Hannah's heart rejoiced (1Sam 2:1) as should the hearts of those who seek the Lord (1Chr 16:10). Love may be centered in the heart, as when Delilah complained that Samson's heart was not with her (Jud 16:15). Absalom gained for himself the loyalty of the Hebrew nation by stealing their hearts (2Sam 15:6). The joyful excitement from the news that Joseph was alive made Jacob's heart faint (Gen 45:26). Reception of comfort is seated in the heart as in the idiom "to speak to the heart" (Gen 34:3; Isa 40:2) for "to comfort."
As for negative emotions, grief is "evil of heart" (Neh 2:2; RSV "sadness of heart"). David's regret or bad conscience at cutting Saul's garment is expressed as "his heart struck him" (1Sam 24:6; cf. 2Sam 24:10 ). God's regret at creating man is centered in God's heart (Gen 6:6). The broken heart accompanies being oppressed (Psa 34:18 [H 19]). Contempt (2Sam 6:16), envy (Prov 23:17), and anger (Prov 19:3) are all functions of the heart.
Idioms relating the heart to fear and bravery are so numerous as to deserve separate treatment. Fear is expressed as follows: The heart may "go out" or "leave" (Gen 42:28; KJV, RSV, "fail"); it may "fall" (1Sam 17:32; RSV, "fail"). To remove courage is to hinder the heart (Num 32:7, 9). Fear occurs when the heart "deserts" its owner (Psa 40:12 [H 13]; KJV, "fails") or "melts" (Josh 14:7). Trembling of heart may represent emotions ranging from the complete demoralization of God's people under judgment (Deut 28:65; cf. 1Sam 28:5) to Eli's anxiety over the welfare of the ark of God (1Sam 4:13). On the other hand the "heart of a lion" speaks of courage (2Sam 17:10).
Thought functions may be attributed to the heart. In such cases it is likely to be translated as "mind" or "understanding." To "set the heart to" may mean to "pay attention to" (Exo 7:23) or to "consider important" (2Sam 18:32). Creative thought is a heart function. Wicked devices originate in the heart (Gen 6:5). The RSV translates "which came upon Solomon's heart" as "all that Solomon had planned" (2Chr 7:11).
Wisdom and understanding are seated in the heart. The "wise heart" (1Kings 3:12; RSV, "wise mind") and "wise of heart" (Prov 16:23) are mentioned. This idiom can be so strongly felt that "heart" virtually becomes a synonym for such ideas as "mind" (2Chr 9:23; RSV) or "sense" (Prov 11:12; RSV). The heart functions in perception and awareness as when Elisha's heart (i.e. Elisha's perceptive nature; RSV "spirit") went with Gehazi (2Kings 5:26). As the seat of thought and intellect, the heart can be deluded (Isa 44:20; RSV "mind").
The heart is the seat of the will. A decision may be described as "setting" the heart (2Chr 12:14). "Not of my heart" expresses "not of my will" (Num 16:28). The "hearts" of the Shechemites inclined to follow Abimelech (Jud 9:3). Removal of the decision-making capacity is described as hardening the heart (Exo 10:1; Josh 11:20). Closely connected to the preceding is the heart as the seat of moral responsibility. Righteousness is "integrity of heart" (Gen 20:5). Moral reformation is to "set one's heart aright" (Job 11:13). The heart is described as the seat of moral evil (Jer 17:9).
Personality dispositions may be considered as more or less permanent personality patterns. Some typical dispositions located in the heart are generosity ("generous heart"; Exo 35:5), pride ("his heart became high"; 2Chr 26:16), and faith ("the heart made firm"; Psa 78:8).
Sure.
Ephesians 1:4. It is evidence that people were chosen before creation..chosen US in Him.
Ephesians 2:8-9. It shows that salvation was always according to grace through faith. This was obscured in the OT, and made plain in the NT.
The covenant of grace was determined in eternity past. When the fulness of time was come, God sent His Son into the world...Galatians 4:4. When did God decide to do this? Before creation? Or after? It was before. Grace wasn't an afterthought; it was premeditated, and revealed through the history of the Bible.
Genesis 4...men began to call upon the name of the Lord. See Romans 10:9-10.
Genesis 6...Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
Genesis 12...Abraham believed God. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
Everything in the OT pointed to Christ and the redemption and reconciliation He would bring. Grace was always the promise, and that through Christ. It was decided before the foundation of the world, and revealed over time. The new covenant in His blood does not distinguish between Jew and Greek. It makes of them all a new humanity with Jesus as the firstborn. This was God's overarching plan from the beginning. All else is subservient to this.
Ephesians 1:4. It is evidence that people were chosen before creation..chosen US in Him.
Ephesians 2:8-9. It shows that salvation was always according to grace through faith. This was obscured in the OT, and made plain in the NT.
The covenant of grace was determined in eternity past. When the fulness of time was come, God sent His Son into the world...Galatians 4:4. When did God decide to do this? Before creation? Or after? It was before. Grace wasn't an afterthought; it was premeditated, and revealed through the history of the Bible.
Genesis 4...men began to call upon the name of the Lord. See Romans 10:9-10.
Genesis 6...Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
Genesis 12...Abraham believed God. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
Everything in the OT pointed to Christ and the redemption and reconciliation He would bring. Grace was always the promise, and that through Christ. It was decided before the foundation of the world, and revealed over time. The new covenant in His blood does not distinguish between Jew and Greek. It makes of them all a new humanity with Jesus as the firstborn. This was God's overarching plan from the beginning. All else is subservient to this.
Absolute nonsense. Satan's lies, sins and evil are birthed, brought forth, originated from himself and himself alone.
God has nothing to do with any of it.
And this ridiculous blather that I hear such as the devil is God's devil or servant is appalling.
"In the final analysis, the Devil is God’s Devil (to summarize Martin Luther)".
No.
The truth is that the devil is his own devil and has FREE WILL.
However, God has His OWN FREE WILL, and God's will DOMINATES and OVERPOWERS the will of Satan.
Precisely as God sees fit.
Jesus was in complete control of His own crucifixion. Nevertheless, the will of Satan, Judas and "others" were there as well.
Who's will reigned supreme?
Who's will reigns supreme in the lives of the redeemed?
God has nothing to do with any of it.
And this ridiculous blather that I hear such as the devil is God's devil or servant is appalling.
"In the final analysis, the Devil is God’s Devil (to summarize Martin Luther)".
No.
The truth is that the devil is his own devil and has FREE WILL.
However, God has His OWN FREE WILL, and God's will DOMINATES and OVERPOWERS the will of Satan.
Precisely as God sees fit.
Jesus was in complete control of His own crucifixion. Nevertheless, the will of Satan, Judas and "others" were there as well.
Who's will reigned supreme?
Who's will reigns supreme in the lives of the redeemed?
If angels had free will they could repent and be saved. When Lucifer rebelled he fell, no place was found for him in heaven and God made the Lake of fire for him. There never was a chance to repent. That to me means they do not have free will as men do.
Second, if all things work together for good to those that love God how can that be if Satan is doing his own will? He isn't he is working out God's will.
Third if all things were created by the Lord, for the Lord and unto the Lord, then that would include Lucifer.
We are told to give thanks in all things and for all things. That can only be true if Satan is nothing but a pawn accomplishing God's will in my life.
Finally, Jesus is Lord. That means Satan cannot do anything unless God allows it. This also means that the demons and fallen angels are terrified of Jesus Christ and the believers because they know they are powerless to stand against them.
Man has free will to chose God or not to chose God. In order for that to be true there has to be some other choice other than God. Satan is simply providing that choice so that God can examine the hearts.
Second, if all things work together for good to those that love God how can that be if Satan is doing his own will? He isn't he is working out God's will.
Third if all things were created by the Lord, for the Lord and unto the Lord, then that would include Lucifer.
We are told to give thanks in all things and for all things. That can only be true if Satan is nothing but a pawn accomplishing God's will in my life.
Finally, Jesus is Lord. That means Satan cannot do anything unless God allows it. This also means that the demons and fallen angels are terrified of Jesus Christ and the believers because they know they are powerless to stand against them.
Man has free will to chose God or not to chose God. In order for that to be true there has to be some other choice other than God. Satan is simply providing that choice so that God can examine the hearts.
The Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels. He knows that. Right now his goal is to bring as many people to his little fiefdom as he can. This is sorting the people out according to their heart, some are tares some are wheat. Some love the Lord, some don't.
The apostasy is composed of those who claim they love the Lord but don't.
If you wanted to find a bride for your Son this would be a very important process to weed out all those who would be Jezebel or snakes in the grass or wolves in sheep's clothing.
The reason man has a free will is so that he can willingly choose to be a burnt offering for the Lord, that is the only way Jesus can see who truly loves Him.
Angels are servants. You don't treat them the same as a woman you a wooing. If a servant is a liar or thief you fire them, end of story. But a woman who has been forgiven much loves much.
The apostasy is composed of those who claim they love the Lord but don't.
If you wanted to find a bride for your Son this would be a very important process to weed out all those who would be Jezebel or snakes in the grass or wolves in sheep's clothing.
The reason man has a free will is so that he can willingly choose to be a burnt offering for the Lord, that is the only way Jesus can see who truly loves Him.
Angels are servants. You don't treat them the same as a woman you a wooing. If a servant is a liar or thief you fire them, end of story. But a woman who has been forgiven much loves much.
When? What is the first mention of this ultimate judgement to condemnation of the devil?
Genesis chapter 3. When Satan attacked and attempted to murder Adam and the woman. Both of whom he sized up as a threat.
We have no idea if there was the possibility of repentance before this incident (though I doubt that there was repentance available). But there certainly is no repentance available afterward.
Game over for Satan and his host. Just a matter of time now.
Genesis chapter 3. When Satan attacked and attempted to murder Adam and the woman. Both of whom he sized up as a threat.
We have no idea if there was the possibility of repentance before this incident (though I doubt that there was repentance available). But there certainly is no repentance available afterward.
Game over for Satan and his host. Just a matter of time now.
A Lament over the King of Tyre
Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eve saw that his temptation would make one wise, God doesn't dispute that.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
I think it is easy to see why Eve would be deceived by him.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Not only was he wise, beautifully covered, he was also an insider who had the experience of the inner courts.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
This is past tense, this is not referring to the Day of the Lord. "I destroyed you".
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
It is like Balaam. The fact that Balaam was a prophet of God was his "wisdom" but he corrupted that wisdom by teaching Balak how to put a stumbling stone before the children of Israel. But that stumbling stone revealed who was living in the flesh and who was faithful to the Lord.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
Also, God uses the judgment on Satan to warn others.
19 All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.”
A dreadful end, that is the Lake of fire. That has not happened yet which is why He says "and shall be no more forever". That is future tense. God is still using him just like He used him to tempt Eve, Balaam, Jezebel, etc. When we see what happened to Judas that should be a warning to us all. When we see what happened to Cain that should be a warning, when we see Balaam rebuked by a donkey that should be a warning.
Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eve saw that his temptation would make one wise, God doesn't dispute that.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
I think it is easy to see why Eve would be deceived by him.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Not only was he wise, beautifully covered, he was also an insider who had the experience of the inner courts.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
This is past tense, this is not referring to the Day of the Lord. "I destroyed you".
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
It is like Balaam. The fact that Balaam was a prophet of God was his "wisdom" but he corrupted that wisdom by teaching Balak how to put a stumbling stone before the children of Israel. But that stumbling stone revealed who was living in the flesh and who was faithful to the Lord.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
Also, God uses the judgment on Satan to warn others.
19 All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.”
A dreadful end, that is the Lake of fire. That has not happened yet which is why He says "and shall be no more forever". That is future tense. God is still using him just like He used him to tempt Eve, Balaam, Jezebel, etc. When we see what happened to Judas that should be a warning to us all. When we see what happened to Cain that should be a warning, when we see Balaam rebuked by a donkey that should be a warning.
You earlier stated that this "UNTIL" statement was fulfilled in 70AD.
And you said the same for all of the other UNTIL passages that I posted.
Rom 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Yes, this would be positively hilarious. If it wasn't so tragic.
And you said the same for all of the other UNTIL passages that I posted.
Rom 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Yes, this would be positively hilarious. If it wasn't so tragic.
Look at the great commission. It was given to the Apostles. They actually went to the ends of the known earth in their time. And Jesus said He would be with them until the end of the age. The age ended...no more old covenant...in 70AD.
You are the one who has to read into the great commission future fulfilment beyond the 1st century.
You are the one who has to read into the great commission future fulfilment beyond the 1st century.
I don't think there is a theology on earth that has ever, "Rightly divide the word of truth".
Spend years on Christian forums and you will understand that every interpretation, every
theology of the scripture is flawed. It is a rare event when even the embedded context is
considered in any interpretation or theology.
We tear verses out of a variety letters, mostly out of context, and hurl them at the demonic
opponents.
We have burned people at the stake because their theology was different to our theology.
Make no mistake, we were fully approved by God when we did that.
That is what we all do to some degree.
Spend years on Christian forums and you will understand that every interpretation, every
theology of the scripture is flawed. It is a rare event when even the embedded context is
considered in any interpretation or theology.
We tear verses out of a variety letters, mostly out of context, and hurl them at the demonic
opponents.
We have burned people at the stake because their theology was different to our theology.
Make no mistake, we were fully approved by God when we did that.
That is what we all do to some degree.
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24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (Gentiles), and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree (Israel)?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Israel
The moment in time when God is done dealing with the Gentiles. God will be done grafting the Gentiles and will graft Israel back in. In the meantime, Israel has been blinded.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Israel
The moment in time when God is done dealing with the Gentiles. God will be done grafting the Gentiles and will graft Israel back in. In the meantime, Israel has been blinded.
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If you had said that the nation of Israel's ears were blocked and the Gentiles nations listened.
To the Word of truth, the revelation of the Christ. Then I would agree with you. (Romans)
To infer that Paul is discussing sovereign election of any individual, in the letter
to the Romans would be a fatal mistake.
Eisegesis (to draw in), in the sense of any commentator "importing" or "drawing in"
their own subjective interpretations into the text, unsupported by the text itself. (wiki)
A Calvinist cannot quote from the letter to the Romans and ignoring the context.
Like when Jesus demanded our unity, our oneness in Christ?
Our humility?
Our generosity?
Or the bell ringer, take the log out of your own eye...
We are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth as we love even
our enemies. I can guarantee that the Christian world is not even close
on any count, let alone understanding the scripture.
To the Word of truth, the revelation of the Christ. Then I would agree with you. (Romans)
To infer that Paul is discussing sovereign election of any individual, in the letter
to the Romans would be a fatal mistake.
Eisegesis (to draw in), in the sense of any commentator "importing" or "drawing in"
their own subjective interpretations into the text, unsupported by the text itself. (wiki)
A Calvinist cannot quote from the letter to the Romans and ignoring the context.
Like when Jesus demanded our unity, our oneness in Christ?
Our humility?
Our generosity?
Or the bell ringer, take the log out of your own eye...
We are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth as we love even
our enemies. I can guarantee that the Christian world is not even close
on any count, let alone understanding the scripture.