Mega Church or No Name Church

[oldethennew]

I think you're doing a fine job Dino, you're a very good teacher; honesty and sincerity
are really big in God's world -
hang-in there -
we all have different light-bulb-moments...

 

[cv5]

Thank you for clarifying. I believe in big churches. As a matter of fact I am 100% fully persuaded that if a man who is called by God to preach and pastor will get on his face before God and seek the Lord until he has heard from God, and who will study the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit and of course sound hermeneutics and get in the pulpit and preach like a man preaching his last message before Jesus Comes, delivering the Word of God he receives from the Spirit and exegetes the scriptures so that people can have their souls illuminated with the Word of God and the message that the Holy Spirit intended being the emphasized message, and if he does it EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit, that man will not be able to contain the masses of hungry souls that will flock to his church to watch him burn with the fire and glory of Christ. I am not talking about personality, and what I just described was not personality.

I believe that God still calls men to give themselves wholly to this cause and to separate themselves from secular careers to accomplish a more eternal purpose. I believe they should be taken care of by the churches they minister to, and God will take care of them, of that I have no doubt. I believe that if they live on a modest income and after 30 years of saving and investing (just like anyone who works at Walmart or Mcdonalds can also do) if they save and invest they can accomplish a comfortable amount of wealth and no stupid person should judge them for what car or house they live in and falsely accuse them of fleecing the flock. That nonsense needs to stop. Don't be that guy. I am grieved by the amount of judging by outward appearance I hear from christians toward ministers. They will have to answer for it one day and it is a shame that those who say we should not judge others are usually misapplying it while they are the ones the most guilty of it. Did you know that if you work at Walmart as a checker and save 15% of every paycheck in a mutual fund after 30 years you will have 2 million in savings and can retire on 200K a year for the rest of your life by living off a modest 10% interest which is a conservative estimate (probably will be more like 13%-18%. And yet if a pastor does that people want to judge him as living highlife off the tithes of the church. They are ignorant fools and will be judged for their loose lips and stupid statements. OK I am off my soapbox now.

I am curious how would you cap the salary (Specify a maximum yearly salary) of a senior pastor of a large or even mega church at this point In history?

 

[cv5]

Ah, the difficulty of trying to communicate online!

From your posts here I see you as someone who feels statements of faith, paid pastors, and established church systems are good. So when you gave your background and what your denomination is dealing with, this all made sense to me as to why you feel this way.

Hence I wrote: "That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . "

I tend to applaud and support small anti-establishment churches because of my past with abusive large traditional churches.

The abuse is there no doubt about that.

 

[cv5]

Claiming to "believe what Scripture says" is also applicable to cults. So it simply will not do to say "We are believing what Scripture says". They all make the same claim.

I have attended many MANY bogus fake fraud so-called "Churches" in my lifetime. Some more outrageous than others. But In some cases there was no doubt in my mind whatsoever that there was almost certainly not one single solitary legitimate saved Christian in there. Impossible.

 

[Mii]

The abuse is there no doubt about that.

If nothing else sometimes a lack of sound leadership and a system of accountability.

 

[DWR]

My fellowship is dropping their branding from signage to present themselves to the public as nondenominational. This seems to be the trend among both pentecostal and nonpentecostal denominations that want to appeal to a new generation who are looking for authenticity over tradition. In other words, they are not withdrawing from their denomination, they are just not making it obvious to anyone that they are part of a denomination. You have to ask around and even then you may find that many of the members think that the church and the pastor is nondenominational. That is how rare it is to hear it mentioned from the pastor or staff.

Isn't that a little deceiving?

 

[cv5]

My fellowship is dropping their branding from signage to present themselves to the public as nondenominational. This seems to be the trend among both pentecostal and nonpentecostal denominations that want to appeal to a new generation who are looking for authenticity over tradition. In other words, they are not withdrawing from their denomination, they are just not making it obvious to anyone that they are part of a denomination. You have to ask around and even then you may find that many of the members think that the church and the pastor is nondenominational. That is how rare it is to hear it mentioned from the pastor or staff.

Okay. But as soon as I discovered and confirmed that this no-name Church was more or less hardcore Pentecostal, I would be out of there in a New York minute.

 

[cv5]

If nothing else sometimes a lack of sound leadership and a system of accountability.

Oh it's worse than that. Much worse. Think more along the lines of a C-suite conspiracy to defraud and pilliage. With plenty of greed, pride with a heavy dose of power madness.

 

[Scribe]

Okay. But as soon as I discovered and confirmed that this no-name Church was more or less hardcore Pentecostal, I would be out of there in a New York minute.

I am sure they would appreciate that. We are called to be of one accord and of the same mind.

 

[Scribe]

Isn't that a little deceiving?

Not if you want to make a statement that the denomination is nothing in and of itself, nothing to be contended for, championed or made disciples of. There is one church and we are called to make disciples of Jesus Christ not denominations.

 

[DWR]

Not if you want to make a statement that the denomination is nothing in and of itself, nothing to be contended for, championed or made disciples of. There is one church and we are called to make disciples of Jesus Christ not denominations.

And here is the problem I have with so call non denomination churches.
Each has a different spin of Scripture and most have come out of a denomination and brought all their beliefs with them.
There are several in my area and each is as different as day and night.

 

[cv5]

Those that think it is nice to meet in small groups in someones living room need to understand that the vast majority of people do not want to do that. It is a too much of someone's personal space. I do not want to meet in your private living room. Your house smells like your family. You just don't notice it and you think your candles mask it.

If you were to go back to the first century court yard of a house and match that today it might be better to meet in your back yard under a tent. They would not have taken you into the family living room area, that would have been off limits. Too personal.

Wierd things are being said about what the first church was like that is not found in scripture. It comes from applying a modern idea about cultural when phrases like "house to house" is used without comprehending what that looked like 2000 years ago in Jerusalem or in Asia Minor. The architecture of common houses with courtyards for example.

Also people who understand the doctrine of the ministry and the scriptural foundation behind the calling of the fulltime minister (which is all biblicaly literate saints) would reject the idea that elders should spend most of their waking hours in secular work. This is not the recipe for a healthy church.

To receive money that can be freely distributed among the saints as there is a need still requires compliance with tax laws and therefore you must have a nonprofit name and that is not going to make it less 1st century to do so. People always end up with names even if it is what others call you, "that group that meets at the Johnsons house" is a name.

Now planting a church could start out as a bible study that grows into an organized local assembly but the bible study should grow or people are not doing what they are called to do. If you are fulfilling the Great Commission and having great success (and who desires to be unsuccessful at this?) you will be growing daily and no living room will be able to hold your group.

Mega Churches are not proof that you are pleasing to God but certainly God is pleased with a Mega Church that is preaching truth and seeing genuine conversions. Why would anyone not be excited about starting a bible study in a living room that turns into a Mega Church. The idea that we should keep it small is not biblical.

A healthy Mega Church is a great place to find opportunities to get involved in ministry and to find people in your age group to hang out with and do the work of God together. I believe Mega Churches are God's plan and I hope to plant 40 or 50 if the Lord wills.

So what do you think of Joel O'Steen's mega church? Or perhaps Kenneth Copeland's mega church? Just curious.

 

[cv5]

I am sure they would appreciate that. We are called to be of one accord and of the same mind.

Great. So they can quit playing pretend, and quit embarrassing themselves and me with the bogus speaking in tongues, the bizarre falling down and shaking, the bogus healings and so on and so forth.

BTW, As soon as I found a Church that DID demonstrate legitimate tongues and various other miraculous gifts, I would quit my job move to that city and attend that Church! No problemo.

 

[Scribe]

I am curious how would you cap the salary (Specify a maximum yearly salary) of a senior pastor of a large or even mega church at this point In history?

Good question. It depends on several things doesn't it. If the pastor planted the church and grew it to 6,000 or 10,000 people bringing in millions a month (I have no idea if that is realistic number for that number of people) then he should probably be compensated at least $300K a year. This may be too low to some people and too high to others. I think it would be the right amount to avoid the appearance of being in it for the money. Most people can manage $300K a year and over time gain financial independence if they are smart with their money. If the church is bringing in millions and his salary was capped at 300K no one would be offended, and if they were they would be offended if he was paid in turkeys and hams, some people will always be offended.

Now if the pastor was successful at writing books I think he has a right to keep that money just like any writer of fiction or poetry has a right to his. I do not think that because he is a pastor he should not be compensated for his writing. And I think if he were very successful with his books he should stop taking any salary from the church sense he no longer needed any. I have heard of mega pastors doing this today.

I also believe that if anyone wants to give a pastor a gift directly and insists that it be used for him and his family and not for the church that he has a right to receive it and use it as he wills.

 

[cv5]

Good question. It depends on several things doesn't it. If the pastor planted the church and grew it to 6,000 or 10,000 people bringing in millions a month (I have no idea if that is realistic number for that number of people) then he should probably be compensated at least $300K a year. This may be too low to some people and too high to others. I think it would be the right amount to avoid the appearance of being in it for the money. Most people can manage $300K a year and over time gain financial independence if they are smart with their money. If the church is bringing in millions and his salary was capped at 300K no one would be offended, and if they were they would be offended if he was paid in turkeys and hams, some people will always be offended.

Now if the pastor was successful at writing books I think he has a right to keep that money just like any writer of fiction or poetry has a right to his. I do not think that because he is a pastor he should not be compensated for his writing. And I think if he were very successful with his books he should stop taking any salary from the church sense he no longer needed any. I have heard of mega pastors doing this today.

I also believe that if anyone wants to give a pastor a gift directly and insists that it be used for him and his family and not for the church that he has a right to receive it and use it as he wills.

300K Is a princely sum. You would have to be the worst money manager in the world to find that inadequate. This business about "bringing in millions" is disturbing. All of that money belongs to the ministry effort.

How about we take the median salary of the congregation, and double it? That would probably bring us to about 150K?

As for the book sales, you can easily argue that the pastor is doing this on "company time", And that the pastor may perhaps by accorded a portion of the sales not all of them.

 

[Blain]

I have often wondered what I would be like as a pastor. A pastor is seen as the most important person in the church and in a sense he is he is to guide teach and edify the flock, but anyone in that position also needs to be aware of the power of words. All to often I have seen pastors teach and speak things but the flock either recieves it or is damaged by it, people preach to teach sound doctrine but what one considers to be sound doctrine is the question at hand how it affect the church what does it speak of and who does it speak to? Does it point to Christ? does give people hope or simply educate?
And then there is the issue of corrupt pastors especially in mgea churches, not to say all mega churches are like this but some pastors are paid so well they have mansions and I sit here thinking for what purpose? Why does one need a mansion?

And every pastor usually has a script already made and planned out and I can see the benifet of that but at the same time it almost feels to ogranized.
If I was a pastor I would likely have a basic guideline of what I would teach and say but I am also a free spirit I tend to speak what God places on my heart so I would not be the average pastor which may or may not be a good thing.
I also would not accept a high salery I am fine with the basics and I also would not have the focus on my position either, to many pastors are overwhelmed by trhying to do it all but everyone has their limits there is strength in community.
and knowing the power words have I would be aware of how vital and how serious it is of the words I say I cannot just spout anything that I believe to be truth or speak in a way that would distract or damage the church it has to be holy spirit filled it has to be something that brings the church together as a whole moving forwards together as one body not following a pastor or teacher.

The point of a leader is to at first lead and guide others but at some point the ones following must be in unison with the leader or rather the leader at some point has to be in unison with the ones who followed. We are in Christ he isn't ahead of us he walks with us

 

[Scribe]

So what do you think of Joel O'Steen's mega church? Or perhaps Kenneth Copeland's mega church? Just curious.

I don't know anything about Kenneth Copeland's mega church. I am surprised that it would be all that large seeing as how everyone I have ever met can't stand him.
I know that Lakewood Church (whatever it's called) bought an entire football stadium to seat all the people. And I think that is pretty awesome. I have heard Joel Osteen a handful of times going back many many years. Each time I have heard him preach it sounded exactly like the last sermon I heard even if it was 10 years since I last listened to him. That being said, I personally never heard him say anything that was false teaching or crazy talk that I have heard everyone say that he teaches. I am not saying he does not teach crazy talk maybe he does, I am just saying when I have listened to him it was always about things like, "If someone is giving you a hard time at work because you are a christian, don't let it get to your peace, just keep being kind and loving and focus on Jesus and pleasing him and God will give you victory in your work place and even if they fire you, God will give you a better job because you keep him first" Things like that. And those kinds of messages are actually needed when you realize how many Christian wives come home and complain to their husbands all evening about who mistreated them at work. So I really can't knock him for preaching these messages even if people think he is too "postive" or "word of faith" I don't think he is an extreme like Kenneth Copeland.
Now that I said that. I think it is awesome that an entire football stadium is packed full of people hearing about Loving Jesus and keeping their focus on pleasing God in the face of adversity don't you? Amen, I knew you would. I wish all the football stadiums were filled with people wanting to please Jesus with their whole heart.

 

[DWR]

I don't know anything about Kenneth Copeland's mega church. I am surprised that it would be all that large seeing as how everyone I have ever met can't stand him.
I know that Lakewood Church (whatever it's called) bought an entire football stadium to seat all the people. And I think that is pretty awesome. I have heard Joel Osteen a handful of times going back many many years. Each time I have heard him preach it sounded exactly like the last sermon I heard even if it was 10 years since I last listened to him. That being said, I personally never heard him say anything that was false teaching or crazy talk that I have heard everyone say that he teaches. I am not saying he does not teach crazy talk maybe he does, I am just saying when I have listened to him it was always about things like, "If someone is giving you a hard time at work because you are a christian, don't let it get to your peace, just keep being kind and loving and focus on Jesus and pleasing him and God will give you victory in your work place and even if they fire you, God will give you a better job because you keep him first" Things like that. And those kinds of messages are actually needed when you realize how many Christian wives come home and complain to their husbands all evening about who mistreated them at work. So I really can't knock him for preaching these messages even if people think he is too "postive" or "word of faith" I don't think he is an extreme like Kenneth Copeland.
Now that I said that. I think it is awesome that an entire football stadium is packed full of people hearing about Loving Jesus and keeping their focus on pleasing God in the face of adversity don't you? Amen, I knew you would. I wish all the football stadiums were filled with people wanting to please Jesus with their whole heart.

So the average COST to attend one of his services is $30.
How much did Jesus charge?

 

[cv5]

I don't know anything about Kenneth Copeland's mega church. I am surprised that it would be all that large seeing as how everyone I have ever met can't stand him.
I know that Lakewood Church (whatever it's called) bought an entire football stadium to seat all the people. And I think that is pretty awesome. I have heard Joel Osteen a handful of times going back many many years. Each time I have heard him preach it sounded exactly like the last sermon I heard even if it was 10 years since I last listened to him. That being said, I personally never heard him say anything that was false teaching or crazy talk that I have heard everyone say that he teaches. I am not saying he does not teach crazy talk maybe he does, I am just saying when I have listened to him it was always about things like, "If someone is giving you a hard time at work because you are a christian, don't let it get to your peace, just keep being kind and loving and focus on Jesus and pleasing him and God will give you victory in your work place and even if they fire you, God will give you a better job because you keep him first" Things like that. And those kinds of messages are actually needed when you realize how many Christian wives come home and complain to their husbands all evening about who mistreated them at work. So I really can't knock him for preaching these messages even if people think he is too "postive" or "word of faith" I don't think he is an extreme like Kenneth Copeland.
Now that I said that. I think it is awesome that an entire football stadium is packed full of people hearing about Loving Jesus and keeping their focus on pleasing God in the face of adversity don't you? Amen, I knew you would. I wish all the football stadiums were filled with people wanting to please Jesus with their whole heart.

Okay. Well..... I will let someone far more eloquent than myself proclaim my opinion of Joel O'Steen.

 

[posthuman]

i've always found it ironic how people separate off into groups of a dozen or maybe 20 people, form their own church, and pontificate about how the church has 'strayed' and 'isn't like it's supposed to be' and 'is supposed to be all one, not divided into denominations'

in the south of the US, where i live, basically every strip mall has one in some erstwhile-shoestore or the back of an old tire store.
it's funny how they all say the same thing yet none of them unite. i wonder if the situation isn't a bit like the BDF can be sometimes -- everyone is a teacher; no one is a student.