" Maybe its real and im just not Chosen "

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

I answered your posting # 11. In this posting you expressed your objection to Calvin. But in posting # 11 you brought not a single quote from Calvin, and not a single verse to back up your tirade against him. This mean you accused but brought no proof. I was correct.

But let's start again. That you object is accepted. I don't agree with Calvin either. In a heathen court one is allowed to accuse, but proof must be brought. How much more shall we Christians bring proof of serious accusations. I propose that to be righteous, you write down Calvin's beliefs (with references) and rebut them with scripture and commentary. Don't worry, I do read the long postings, so you can go to 2 or 3 A4 or US Letter. I await in anticipation. As an example you may want to read my posting # 32 in the "other Calvinism thread"* - an answer to the OP.

Thanks, and God bless.

* "Calvinism and Context".

You ignored my query asking if you were a scholar. I'll take silence to be a , no.
Your tirade against Calvinism appears where?

You may find my posts concerning Calvinism and my argument that it is a false teaching here.

Corban · Sep 12, 2020

soggykitten said:

But we discuss your posting # 11. Where is all that you propose found in posting # 11? As to your question I will let you decide if I am a scholar or not. Is not that the way our Master commands? 1st Corinthians 14:29 is emphatic;

"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the OTHER judge."

Make your judgment, and I will abide by it.

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

Corban said:

I've made my judgment in the last post.

Every plagiarist I've ever found on a forum wherein scripture is discussed make the mistake of leaking one glaring tell. Be it a matter of pasting various paragraphs found at different sites together to form a faux intellectual Apologetic presentation, or that pertaining to Exegesis, or any other Bible study subject.

Further, no, we're not discussing my post #11. You're criticizing my post #11. You're new. Many of us in this thread have discussed Calvinism and its faults without using scripture to support it. What makes me special , who knows. However, those of us who have discussed this topic overmuch know we've made our points in previous discussions. And many here in this thread who have been on the site longer than myself can attest to that.
This is why I shared the link to my posts with you. If you're that interested in my refutation of Calvinism, look it up.
Thank you.

awelight · Sep 12, 2020

Why do these arguments keep going round and round? I have read hundreds of threads, on both sides of the issue and nothing ever changes.

For me, it is nearing the time to bail from this vicious circle. Only God can change the stubborn mind. Since posting here, I have been accused of being a Calvinist at every turn because what I believe matches some of his points. But what I know of Scripture, I know because the Holy Spirit showed these things to me as I studied Scripture. I never read another man's work. I didn't even know who John Calvin was, until six to seven months after my conversion. Does, the Holy Spirit lead one to one conclusion and another to another conclusion?

Someone is desperately wrong. But bashing ones head against the same wall over and over, will accomplish nothing. I have begun to ask myself, do we all think ourselves so important, that we just like hearing ourselves talk or write? If you don't like my posts, then that is just fine with me. Again this is between you and the Lord, whom we will answer to. I love discussing the things of God, with like minded people, but there is no joy in constantly trying to tear someone down. or in constantly being torn down.

We all know that salvation works the same way in each true believer. You are an unbeliever at first. Then the Holy Spirit does something and then you have a burning desire to answer questions that are popping into your mind. You turn to the Bible for answers, a book you really cared nothing about before. What you read causes you to breakdown in tears because you realize, that your own sins caused our dear Lord, in part, to stand in your place, to suffer the wrath of God, when you should be the one who is condemned and suffer. Not another! Then you begin to learn the salvation of our God and you believe it and lay hold of the only name that saves, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Doctrine is important to our belief and understanding of whom God is and what He is doing but Doctrine will not save no one. To believe otherwise, is like trying to find salvation in God's Word and not in His Holy Son.

Enough with all these posts, that try to nit pick and tear down what another holds true. Everyone will be responsible for what they hold true, when they stand before the Lord.

Is there not other Biblical subjects, that could be discussed? No one is going to budge on the Doctrine of Soteriology.

DiscipleA · Sep 12, 2020

throughfaith said:

I say pick your battles. Calvanists shouldn't be your main target just because their beliefs may be a little off just as some of yours may be. They believe in God and the important things.

garee · Sep 12, 2020

soggykitten said:

Its more how can we hear what the Spirit says to the believers (churches)? How many? As many as he gave power to hear and believe .Not one more or one less .

As many that did not receive Him to them no power was given.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

garee said:

I think when we know the word appears in the Bible and speaks of God and his grace filled gift, that The Word (that is God) will enter into our heart when the scriptures that speak of redemption and rebirth find us.
How many sinners hungry for salvation from their plight in life find God in the Bible? Cleaving to any lifeboat, searching for something that will get them through.
One man I heard of was contemplating suicide. His life was over as far as he saw and he was getting up the courage to end it when he turned on the TV.
I think it was pastor Billy Graham that was on the channel that broadcast just as the man turned on the television. And in that moment Dr.Graham said something like, and I don't have the exact quote, you're there right at this minute thinking of giving up the life the Lord gave you. Don't squander his gift. Come to Jesus.

God speaks to us even through the magnificent beauty of his creation that tells us he is there and without saying a word. We see that and we see God whether or not we know it.
I would say relax and don't fret about hearing God's words to you. He speaks all the time. I think we have to just release our thoughts as to how we can know God is speaking and just let ourselves go and know that we too are of and from God. The communication lines are always open. We just have to relax and receive the call.
Some people call it intuition. That's another way I believe God speaks to us.

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son[d] from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[e] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[f] who is at the Father's side,[g] he has made him known.
The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[h] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, “Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Behold, the Lamb of God
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son[i] of God.”
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 37 The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, “What are you seeking?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” 39 He said to them, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour.[j] 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus[k] was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter[l]).
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 46 Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” 48 Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” 49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” 50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you,[m] you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

garee · Sep 13, 2020

soggykitten said:

I think when we know the word appears in the Bible and speaks of God and his grace filled gift, that The Word (that is God) will enter into our heart when the scriptures that speak of redemption and rebirth find us.
How many sinners hungry for salvation from their plight in life find God in the Bible? Cleaving to any lifeboat, searching for something that will get them through.
One man I heard of was contemplating suicide. His life was over as far as he saw and he was getting up the courage to end it when he turned on the TV.
I think it was pastor Billy Graham that was on the channel that broadcast just as the man turned on the television. And in that moment Dr.Graham said something like, and I don't have the exact quote, you're there right at this minute thinking of giving up the life the Lord gave you. Don't squander his gift. Come to Jesus.

God speaks to us even through the magnificent beauty of his creation that tells us he is there and without saying a word. We see that and we see God whether or not we know it.
I would say relax and don't fret about hearing God's words to you. He speaks all the time. I think we have to just release our thoughts as to how we can know God is speaking and just let ourselves go and know that we too are of and from God. The communication lines are always open. We just have to relax and receive the call.
Some people call it intuition. That's another way I believe God speaks to us.

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son[d] from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[e] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[f] who is at the Father's side,[g] he has made him known.
The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[h] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, “Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Behold, the Lamb of God
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son[i] of God.”
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 37 The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, “What are you seeking?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” 39 He said to them, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour.[j] 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus[k] was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter[l]).
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 46 Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” 48 Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” 49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” 50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you,[m] you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

No man can come unless the father draws them through the law as it is written. It in the phrase as it is written represents the source of the faith of God (Christian faith) that does work in us to both will and do his good pleasure.

Some perish without it other perish through it. It is the one standard by which we can know we have eternal life.

The heavens plural declare his glory to a believer through His word. But the heavens also reveal the wrath a dying corrupted creation.

Gazing at the stars without any knowledge of the law of God has no value. No preaching of the word God's law no salvation.

There is no gospel in the stars we walk by the unseen faith generated by the law of God.

That does not mean if a person views a rainbow that God cannot give them faith .The faith comes through the law that informs us of the rainbow . Using the things seen the temporal to teach us of the unseen things of faith.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

garee said:

No man can come unless the father draws them through the law as it is written. It in the phrase as it is written represents the source of the faith of God (Christian faith) that does work in us to both will and do his good pleasure.

Some perish without it other perish through it. It is the one standard by which we can know we have eternal life.

The heavens plural declare his glory to a believer through His word. But the heavens also reveal the wrath a dying corrupted creation.

Gazing at the stars without any knowledge of the law of God has no value. No preaching of the word God's law no salvation.

There is no gospel in the stars we walk by the unseen faith generated by the law of God.

That does not mean if a person views a rainbow that God cannot give them faith .The faith comes through the law that informs us of the rainbow . Using the things seen the temporal to teach us of the unseen things of faith.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Is the Father still drawing after the cross? Which verse ? We have a verse which is clear that Jesus draws ALL men . Faith comes by hearing ,hearing the word of Truth . The law gives us the knowledge of sin . It was supposed to be a tutor to Christ.

NOV25 · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

So either you aren't real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I'll never know
Either way my heart is broken
This is the lyrics from a well known, former professing Calvinist , singer song writer Derick Webb . Now self proclaimed 'reformed atheist ' .

i think this video explains some of the issues with Calvinism / Lordship salvation. This is an interview with Derick Webb ,who is now an atheist/ agnostic but formerly a famous singer song writer, professing Calvinist. I think what he says exposes some of the logical consequences of Calvinism and Lordship salvation .
Starting about the 50 min mark onwards are the key parts . till about 102 min mark .

Watched from 50:00 till end. He basically says scripture clearly teaches the Calvinist view but he’s just not a believer in God, yet.

oldethennew · Sep 13, 2020

before 'conversion' I 'thought' that I was chosen -
after 'conversion', I knew that I was chosen...

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

NOV25 said:

He's also saying that he is waiting for God to save Him . Until then he's going to carry on living his life . From my perspective Calvinism has taught him a excuse for not believing . He must not be chosen, he thinks. When in reality he needs to recieve Jesus by believing the Gospel . My hope would be that he hears the correct ,biblical understanding of how to be saved that doesn't involve the unbiblical idea of regeneration precedes faith .

DiscipleA · Sep 13, 2020

oldethennew said:

I think some people confuse that with:

before 'conversion' I 'thought' that I was being called-
after 'conversion', I knew that I was being called...

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I'm not saying anyone is or anyone isn't confusing the two. Just saying it's possible somewhere around the world.

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

DiscipleA said:

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

oldethennew · Sep 13, 2020

ROM. 9:15.
For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16.
So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
17.
For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might show My power in you, and that MY NAME might be declared throughout all the earth.
18.
Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.

DiscipleA · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

No idea what that could possibly mean. Sorry.

Corban · Sep 13, 2020

soggykitten said:

I've made my judgment in the last post.

Every plagiarist I've ever found on a forum wherein scripture is discussed make the mistake of leaking one glaring tell. Be it a matter of pasting various paragraphs found at different sites together to form a faux intellectual Apologetic presentation, or that pertaining to Exegesis, or any other Bible study subject.

Further, no, we're not discussing my post #11. You're criticizing my post #11. You're new. Many of us in this thread have discussed Calvinism and its faults without using scripture to support it. What makes me special , who knows. However, those of us who have discussed this topic overmuch know we've made our points in previous discussions. And many here in this thread who have been on the site longer than myself can attest to that.
This is why I shared the link to my posts with you. If you're that interested in my refutation of Calvinism, look it up.
Thank you.

As I said, I'll abide by it. Go well.

SoulWeaver · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

Do you have any actual proof that he is a Calvinist or you're just pulling it out of thin air to vent personal frustrations about Calvinism?
What do you say about Arminians that fall off the train?
(Btw, I'm neither)

NOV25 · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

And given the opportunity what would you tell him? Seems he debates people like you often and by what I've seen you post here, he's definitely more knowledgable than you.

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

SoulWeaver said:

I have to take Derick at his word as a now professing Atheist . My point is He was a former professing Calvinist .The main point is his reasons given for not believing and that's ' he is not chosen ' now which particular theology would give him the impression that regeneration has to precede faith ? That the reason for his unbelief is because he has concluded he must not be one of the ' elect ' . Only Calvinism has given him that idea and his excuse for not Believing.

" Maybe its real and im just not Chosen "

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