Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Jan 12, 2019
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Christ spoke of the rapture in the OD. Israel fell LONG before Christ was even born.
Not according to the parable of the tenants. Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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What do you do with the verses in Daniel 12 that link the weeks to the end of time?

(All these verses are from Daniel chapter 12)

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
None of this deals with the 70 Weeks, for they began in 457 B.C. and expired in 34 A.D., 490 years later....if the prophecy did not expire in 34 A.D., then it could not be referred to as the "70 Weeks".

Daniel 12 is speaking of the time of trouble that will come upon all the world which will culminate with the close of probation and the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked with the 7 Last Plagues...followed by the return of Jesus in the clouds.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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At first I thought you got off of the juvenile "jesuit" name calling.
I guess not.

Very juvenile sir.

Troll type of strategies are doing nothing for honest debate.
It's called "church history". Perhaps if you studied some, you'd discover that Protestant Historicism reigned supreme for centuries during the Reformation, while your Jesuit "Left Behind" theology showed up late for the party? :)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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What do you personally believe about the MARK OF THE BEAST? Future or past?
The Bible teaches that the Little Horn, the King of the North, the First Beast of Revelation 13, the Man of Sin, the Whore riding the Beast of Revelation 17, all point to the Papacy as the "Beast" from which the Mark of the Beast will issue. If you want to know what the Mark of the Beast is, just as the Papacy what its "Mark of Authority" is...not only do they boast about what it is, but they cast shame and derision upon Protestants for bowing down to their authority in this matter.

Also, as the Papacy who is the "only consistent Protestant" and the only Protestant who makes the Bible their "sole creed" as opposed to the rest of the Christian world who claims to have separated from her, but still clings to her authority "like a boy running away from home, but still carrying in his pocket a picture of her or a lock of her hair."

The "Mark of the Beast" is not technically such until it is enforced by legislation via the Second Beast of Revelation 13, and will be global, of course.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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The Bible teaches that the Little Horn, the King of the North, the First Beast of Revelation 13, the Man of Sin, the Whore riding the Beast of Revelation 17, all point to the Papacy as the "Beast" from which the Mark of the Beast will issue. If you want to know what the Mark of the Beast is, just as the Papacy what its "Mark of Authority" is...not only do they boast about what it is, but they cast shame and derision upon Protestants for bowing down to their authority in this matter.

Also, as the Papacy who is the "only consistent Protestant" and the only Protestant who makes the Bible their "sole creed" as opposed to the rest of the Christian world who claims to have separated from her, but still clings to her authority "like a boy running away from home, but still carrying in his pocket a picture of her or a lock of her hair."

The "Mark of the Beast" is not technically such until it is enforced by legislation via the Second Beast of Revelation 13, and will be global, of course.
Oh oh! Dont tell me its the sunday worship gimmick? That'll never happen! People are getting less and less religious. Nobody gives a HOOT about no sunday OR saturday worship. Everything is open 24/7.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Nehemiah6 said:
This is so bizarre, one can hardly comment. You will find absolutely nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 regarding the Great Tribulation.
Those that understand scripture will know that surviving until the coming of the Lord means they survived the Great Tribulation.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Just as Nehemiah6 said, there is nothing in 1 Thess 4 regarding the GT. It's not mentioned is what I'm sure he meant.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Guojing said:
Of course it’s unrelated to the rapture.

The rapture was a mystery of the body of Christ to be revealed only after Israel has fallen (romans 11:11)
Christ spoke of the rapture in the OD. Israel fell LONG before Christ was even born.
What support for that opinion do you have to share?

In fact, the nation of Israel didn't fall until 70 AD.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The 2 witnesses were NOT glorified. They did NOT receive resurrection bodies, or the Word would have said so. So to make that claim with Scriptural evidence is presumption.
Actually the text is unclear if the two prophets of Revelation 11 resurrected back to mortality or to immortality.
Not "unclear" at all. If they had been, the text would have said so. But we know from other passages that there is a FIRST resurrection, which is for "those who belong to Him", per 1 Cor 15:23. So we can conclude that the 2W will be gloried with ALL the other believers when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent.

Since their resurrection was so close to the larger mass bodily resurrection it is possible their bodies were transformed to immortal but since there is no evidence for or against, I take no specific stance on it.
Pure speculation, conjecture, and guessing. Let's just stick with Scripture. Those who belong to Him (1 Cor 15:23) will all be glorified at the same event, when Christ returns to end the Trib and set up His Kingdom.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Pure speculation, conjecture, and guessing. Let's just stick with Scripture.
Scripture doesn't tell us the answer so any answer is pure speculation, conjecture, and guessing.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Dispensationalism skews the way the Bible is viewed making it impossible to come up with consistent sound doctrine. The error is pre-trib rapture, but the root cause is reading the Bible wrong.

Since the Bible says Jesus is literally returning after the great tribulation to gather His elect then we need to go with that.
Re read it
He gathers them right BEFORE his return...IN HEAVEN.

EVEN REV 14 has a GATHERING DURING THE GT......OF JEWS.

NO WAY AROUND IT..... OMISSION IS BIZARRELY YOUR FRIEND
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Oops. Wrong. When Jesus rose from the dead, the FIRST place He went wasn't an ascension. He went to Hades (hell) to "preach to the spirits in prison", per 1 Peter 3:19.

What verse mentions specifically that He "ascended" the VERY FIRST day of His resurrection?


The Acts 1 account is His "official" (I can't think of another word) ascension.


How can you prove that? Your claim sounds like an opinion. Jesus was leaving the earth until the Second Advent. And the angles were explaining that His SECOND RETURN to earth would be JUST like He left earth. With clouds.


Which just happens to be when He glorifes all believers.


I'll deal with it when I have some evidence from the Bible. Why haven't you been more clear and specific?
Lol

" Just like he ascended" is the pretrib rapture model.

In the second coming on horses NOTHING of that return resembles the ascension in acts 1.

Acts one destroys your deal.

Re read it..." Like manner"

"I walked to the store"

Now I return in like manner

Postribs " oh that means you gather a hundred friends and return home ON HORSES as a calvary and slaughter everyone in the neighborhood and take over city hall and the police department. Then set up a new government"

How bizarre is your doctrine??????

Pretrib rapture is what you just supported.
" Like manner"
All the rapture verses testify against your assertion
.....and you are oblivious
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Re read it
He gathers them right BEFORE his return...IN HEAVEN.

EVEN REV 14 has a GATHERING DURING THE GT......OF JEWS.

NO WAY AROUND IT..... OMISSION IS BIZARRELY YOUR FRIEND
Revelation 14:14 says that Jesus comes on a cloud to harvest the Earth.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

It's post-tribulational:

Mark 13:24-26

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Revelation 14:14 says that Jesus comes on a cloud to harvest the Earth.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

It's post-tribulational:

Mark 13:24-26

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
You just contradicted yourself

Rev 14 is during the gt
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Revelation 14:14 says that Jesus comes on a cloud to harvest the Earth.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

It's post-tribulational:

Mark 13:24-26

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
You guys have such a hard job.
I can see why you ignore verses
 
Jan 31, 2021
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" Just like he ascended" is the pretrib rapture model.
It's the Second Coming pattern.

In the second coming on horses NOTHING of that return resembles the ascension in acts 1.
So what? The commonality is the mention of clouds. Maybe you just missed that.

Acts one destroys your deal.
Only in your mind.

How bizarre is your doctrine?
Being straightforward biblical, it is not bizarre at all. But your doctrine has no evidence at all.

Pretrib rapture is what you just supported.
" Like manner"
All the rapture verses testify against your assertion
.....and you are oblivious
Every one of them FAILS to mention anything about a U-turn back to heaven. So, who's doctrine is bizarre?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You guys have such a hard job.
I can see why you ignore verses
No, we don't ignore Scripture. We understand Scripture.

But, why do you ignores facts??

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.

Please be my guest and prove these facts wrong. And leave out any conjecture or construct, please.