John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism
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I didn't write that to begin with. I was raised in the Sacred heart of Mary doctrine. It's a catholic cult that teaches that Jesus doesn't listen to men's prayers. That our prayers must be directed to Mary to speak for us because only she is worthy to speak to Jesus for us. I had an LDS uncle and a JW aunt. I didn't come to Jesus until I started reading the bible. I only trust the bible. Not Luther, Calvin, Swaggart or even Billy Graham 100% Dr. Walter Martin, author of "The Kingdom of the Cults." Expose'/Book was my Sunday school teacher for a couple of years. He made mistakes too.
For the record I tend to follow the Mennonite/Ana Baptist teachings more than any other and there are no such churches in my town and no busses run on Sundays either.
Christianity is filled with cults, not to mention pseudo christian cults like many Mormons belong to. There is a big difference between cult and occult as well. No person that considers them self a Christian should read a horoscope or pray to a statue, ever! However those sins are forgivable too.
For the record I tend to follow the Mennonite/Ana Baptist teachings more than any other and there are no such churches in my town and no busses run on Sundays either.
Christianity is filled with cults, not to mention pseudo christian cults like many Mormons belong to. There is a big difference between cult and occult as well. No person that considers them self a Christian should read a horoscope or pray to a statue, ever! However those sins are forgivable too.
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The newest book I faithfully study is Revelations. No other author has had that much authority or inspiration ever since. Maybe I'll read Calvin when his writings are accepted by real scholars to be the inspired word of God and they appear in the Bible. Else wise he's not much different than Joseph Smith.
We were warned to watch out for false teachers an false profits and test them using the word of God. The bible wasn't in print till about 1500 ad. Now we have more to test them with than 1900 years ago.
We were warned to watch out for false teachers an false profits and test them using the word of God. The bible wasn't in print till about 1500 ad. Now we have more to test them with than 1900 years ago.
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Nah.
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3]
"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.
"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection."
--Gaebelein, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting]
[the viewpoint put forth in the Apostles Creed on this subject, has really messed up people's grasp of what Eph1&2 is actually conveying, sorry to say]
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3]
"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.
"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection."
--Gaebelein, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting]
[the viewpoint put forth in the Apostles Creed on this subject, has really messed up people's grasp of what Eph1&2 is actually conveying, sorry to say]
In absolute fact John 3 doesn't refute Calvinism. You are using Arminianism concepts to refute Calvinism. The basic problem is both are very Biblical!! The Canons of Dort are basic Calvinism. The Biblical Defense of Calvinism is the Canons of Dort!! Please point out where John 3 disputes them. Here is the quinquarticular controversy!!
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
Sorry Charlie,
You are disputing what the early elders in 212 created to define what a Christian must believe. For the theologian you quote there are hundreds of theologians disputing his claim. The creed started as the Roman statement of faith which evolved to the Roman Creed. By 212 it evolved into the Apostles Creed.
Also by 500 the Athanasian and Nicine Creed were created making very similar statements. You are disputing what for approaching 2000 years has been a backbone of the basic concept of Christianity. I'm 74 and been an elder and deacon in 3 churches, moved twice by my company. The source for saying what is correct or incorrect is the Bible. I have found absolutely nothing in the text about the crucifixion and resurrection that disputes the creeds!! All gospel preaching denominations adhere to this and the other creeds. Many quote it in church as part of the service. I learned it that way. Keep in mind that Jesus is God incarnate therefore never ceases to exist. His human body could be killed and was. But as God he never ceased to exist. The descent into hades was added to some versions much later!! Many theologians claim it means the grave.
THE APOSTLES CREED
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried.
[where is this wrong]
The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
[Where is this wrong?]
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
[Where is this wrong.]
Amen.
Jesus stated the only sign he was the Messiah was the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the belly of the big fish so he would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights.
You are disputing what the early elders in 212 created to define what a Christian must believe. For the theologian you quote there are hundreds of theologians disputing his claim. The creed started as the Roman statement of faith which evolved to the Roman Creed. By 212 it evolved into the Apostles Creed.
Also by 500 the Athanasian and Nicine Creed were created making very similar statements. You are disputing what for approaching 2000 years has been a backbone of the basic concept of Christianity. I'm 74 and been an elder and deacon in 3 churches, moved twice by my company. The source for saying what is correct or incorrect is the Bible. I have found absolutely nothing in the text about the crucifixion and resurrection that disputes the creeds!! All gospel preaching denominations adhere to this and the other creeds. Many quote it in church as part of the service. I learned it that way. Keep in mind that Jesus is God incarnate therefore never ceases to exist. His human body could be killed and was. But as God he never ceased to exist. The descent into hades was added to some versions much later!! Many theologians claim it means the grave.
THE APOSTLES CREED
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried.
[where is this wrong]
The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
[Where is this wrong?]
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
[Where is this wrong.]
Amen.
Jesus stated the only sign he was the Messiah was the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the belly of the big fish so he would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights.
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There is a simple point. Going from death to life, entering the Kingdom of Heaven, being born from
on High, only comes by the will of the Father.
Jesus declared Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah, which could only happen by Gods revelation.
We only walk in communion with Jesus because we are born by the Holy Spirit.
And if one is not born of the Holy Spirit one is not of God.
The apostles believed choice and calling go hand in hand, we are all called, and we respond freely
because we are called, yet unless God changes us, it makes no sense.
How much of this is free will, and how much like seeds sown in good soil, I do not know.
Saul is an interesting example
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
1 Sam 10
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 9
I have realised something about people. They make choices and come to conclusions, for whatever reason,
and this determines their direction and what they listen to or reject. This is their choice but it determines
how they listen to God and what they are prepared to do.
Like this forum, the chosen, those who walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit praise the Lord.
I would love to believe this is an argument, except it is not. We only know Jesus through
the narrow gate and the narrow path. Those who deny this, clearly do not know Jesus, which
for them is impossible for them to accept, but spiritual reality is that. Praise the Lord.
on High, only comes by the will of the Father.
Jesus declared Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah, which could only happen by Gods revelation.
We only walk in communion with Jesus because we are born by the Holy Spirit.
And if one is not born of the Holy Spirit one is not of God.
The apostles believed choice and calling go hand in hand, we are all called, and we respond freely
because we are called, yet unless God changes us, it makes no sense.
How much of this is free will, and how much like seeds sown in good soil, I do not know.
Saul is an interesting example
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
1 Sam 10
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 9
I have realised something about people. They make choices and come to conclusions, for whatever reason,
and this determines their direction and what they listen to or reject. This is their choice but it determines
how they listen to God and what they are prepared to do.
Like this forum, the chosen, those who walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit praise the Lord.
I would love to believe this is an argument, except it is not. We only know Jesus through
the narrow gate and the narrow path. Those who deny this, clearly do not know Jesus, which
for them is impossible for them to accept, but spiritual reality is that. Praise the Lord.
This is to Nehemiah as well.
I'd like to see this in the way you do, and I use to, but there is solid Scripture to the contrary.
We are dead. Born spiritually dead. There is no way around this. We weren't "mostly" dead. dead is dead.
Ephesians 2:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Matthew 8:22 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Here Jesus is saying let the spiritually dead bury the physically AND spiritually dead!
Now we see that we are not even capable to understand spiritual matters until we hear the Gospel, and the faith THAT GOD GAVE US is activated:
1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And of course, this is the final nail that confirms the faith we have to believe unto Salvation comes directly from the Lord.
Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
The THAT in the verse is referring to the faith immediately preceding it. Also, Grace INTRINSICALLY is a gift, so there is no reason to point out that is not of yourselves.
So we cannot boast saying "I have the faith to believe, I conjured it up in my own strength".
And as I look back on my own Spiritually journey. I can see there was no way I was going to come to the Lord on my own. It was ALL of Him. Drawing me, activating faith when my brother told me the True Gospel, NOT the stuff I heard in Catholic school.
So I don't know how we can conclude that the saving faith we have is ANYTHING but a gift from God.
I'd like to see this in the way you do, and I use to, but there is solid Scripture to the contrary.
We are dead. Born spiritually dead. There is no way around this. We weren't "mostly" dead. dead is dead.
Ephesians 2:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Matthew 8:22 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Here Jesus is saying let the spiritually dead bury the physically AND spiritually dead!
Now we see that we are not even capable to understand spiritual matters until we hear the Gospel, and the faith THAT GOD GAVE US is activated:
1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And of course, this is the final nail that confirms the faith we have to believe unto Salvation comes directly from the Lord.
Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
The THAT in the verse is referring to the faith immediately preceding it. Also, Grace INTRINSICALLY is a gift, so there is no reason to point out that is not of yourselves.
So we cannot boast saying "I have the faith to believe, I conjured it up in my own strength".
And as I look back on my own Spiritually journey. I can see there was no way I was going to come to the Lord on my own. It was ALL of Him. Drawing me, activating faith when my brother told me the True Gospel, NOT the stuff I heard in Catholic school.
So I don't know how we can conclude that the saving faith we have is ANYTHING but a gift from God.
Agree with most of your points but what you failed to post is that the Lord draws all men unto Himself. All men are given enough faith to believe. Some believe and are saved, some reject and are condemned. All means all, world means the entire world, every man means every man, whosoever means whosoever, etc...not just some elect group that Calvin made up.
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I don't necessarily disagree with this, and I am not a Calvinist. I certainly don't at all agree with limited atonement.
God rented out and paid for every room in the Waldorf Astoria. Those rooms are paid for regardless of how many actually show up to stay in.
How exactly God's sovereign election works with man's free will is WAAAY above my pay grade. I just know I believe because HE gave me the faith to believe, and I wouldn't have believed UNLESS He did. Once again, a dead person can do NOTHING but be dead.
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Election always has to do with service, in context, never salvation. It boggles my mind why people connect election with salvation. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Jesus Christ was not chosen to get salvation. Jesus was God's servant to bring about salvation.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Esau was elected to serve Jacob. The nation that would come from Esau would serve the nation that would come from Jacob. Salvation is not in the context.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
God chose the seed line to come through Jacob, and the people of Esau would serve this seed.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Esau was elected to serve Jacob. The nation that would come from Esau would serve the nation that would come from Jacob. Salvation is not in the context.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.God chose the seed line to come through Jacob, and the people of Esau would serve this seed.
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The idea of early elders and creeds as having any significance in rightly diving of the word of God is not a biblical idea. It is that kind idea that has destroyed the use of words like heresy or the word apostle to mention two that are popular. Therefore violating the warning (Deuteronomy 4) not to add other meaning to one word. One word can change the author's intent and causes blasphemy in the end of the matter.
Those kind of creed fathers will say every other person has a private interpretation .Using their own private interpretation to judge others. We all have a opinion called a heresy .God has created different sects. his name Abraham reflect that he is the God of many nations not just one but all . In the new heavens and earth the kingdoms of this world will become the observable kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is not of this world .It does not come by observation. We walk by the eternal faith of Christ (not seen) There must be heresies among us (impossible not to)
Those kind of creed fathers will say every other person has a private interpretation .Using their own private interpretation to judge others. We all have a opinion called a heresy .God has created different sects. his name Abraham reflect that he is the God of many nations not just one but all . In the new heavens and earth the kingdoms of this world will become the observable kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is not of this world .It does not come by observation. We walk by the eternal faith of Christ (not seen) There must be heresies among us (impossible not to)
Amen he gives us His faith so that we can believe Him not seen. .Without it as it is written, the (faith of Christ) working in us... not of (coming from) us.......... no man could beleive as a anchor to his new soul .
The word "as many" or many does not allow for one more or one less. The names of the elect were written from before the foundation of the world. .The books will be opened and compared . If ones name is not in both books .Then they will never rise to new Spirit life. Atonement is not limited to our decision . That would be another kind of many .The skies the limit. If a person does beleive God knows who will be given new life as limited atonement. At the most a person looses their bragging rights.
Free will to a Christian is to do the will of the father and finish it. It the kind of food the disciples knew not about. They thought free will was what ever they decided to do as slaves to sin, doing the will of the god of this world . Peter rebuked the lord of glory forbidding Jesus from doing the will of the father. This was according to the will of someone? ?The other upside down will. We were not designed to do what we please. .
Like below as the Spirit of Christ worked in the individual to both will and do His good will (imputed righteousness . ) Not only a Calvin only kind but for all who desire to do the will of the father.
Like below he moved them to touch. Again as he does work in us with us to make it even possible to believe Him not seen.
Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone) gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The word "as many" or many does not allow for one more or one less. The names of the elect were written from before the foundation of the world. .The books will be opened and compared . If ones name is not in both books .Then they will never rise to new Spirit life. Atonement is not limited to our decision . That would be another kind of many .The skies the limit. If a person does beleive God knows who will be given new life as limited atonement. At the most a person looses their bragging rights.
Free will to a Christian is to do the will of the father and finish it. It the kind of food the disciples knew not about. They thought free will was what ever they decided to do as slaves to sin, doing the will of the god of this world . Peter rebuked the lord of glory forbidding Jesus from doing the will of the father. This was according to the will of someone? ?The other upside down will. We were not designed to do what we please. .
Like below as the Spirit of Christ worked in the individual to both will and do His good will (imputed righteousness . ) Not only a Calvin only kind but for all who desire to do the will of the father.
Like below he moved them to touch. Again as he does work in us with us to make it even possible to believe Him not seen.
Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone) gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
U
I think that being spiritually dead has been streeeeetched out to mean far more than is does.....but lets put that aside and focus on the narrow concept of belief.
Salvific faith/belief as a "gift" pulled apart from "limited atonement" means Christ died for those upon whom He would never confer this gift, that seems very illogical.
I believe Calvinism only works as a complete system....but lets move on...
So are you stating humans do not possess the ability to be persuaded/believe something is true?
Why does God respond to human belief with the gift of eternal life then?
But to him who does not work but believes [from pisteuo] on Him who justifies the ungodly, his believing [pistis] is accounted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
Salvific faith/belief as a "gift" pulled apart from "limited atonement" means Christ died for those upon whom He would never confer this gift, that seems very illogical.
I believe Calvinism only works as a complete system....but lets move on...
So are you stating humans do not possess the ability to be persuaded/believe something is true?
Why does God respond to human belief with the gift of eternal life then?
But to him who does not work but believes [from pisteuo] on Him who justifies the ungodly, his believing [pistis] is accounted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
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