John 3:18

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Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
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#61
I was a part of one once, many years ago, but I don't recall what forum it was.
Years ago, maybe a million, dee dee warren had a formal debate forum.
Kinda worked like this ; The 2 parties figured out which went first . A had the opening OP. The post was left up far anyone to read only for a determined amount of time . B had the same space for rebuttal. again left for a time .. Then predetermined amount of back and forth responces. then closing. Other members were welcome to use the material but could not reply in the debate thread. Not meaning too i can take a thread off the tracks seems like in a minute. A formal debate thread is a good option.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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mywebsite.us
#62
I have, in the past.

Quite frankly, I'm just tired of all the contention.

It takes the wind out of my sails, so to speak, or greatly hinders my desire to post at all.

I'll see how I feel tomorrow.
We ALL have to accept that we are wrong on some things.

We ALL think we're right on what we say, or we wouldn't say it.

I believe everything I say is right. I also believe I MUST be wrong on some things. NO ONE is right on everything.

If everyone agreed with everything you say, then there would be no contention for you.

So in essence what you are saying here is that you are tired that not everyone agrees with everything you say.

Once you make peace with the idea that A- not everyone is going to agree with you. And B- that you are wrong on some things, you will not get tired of people so quickly.

This is NOT to say we shouldn't argue our points passionately. We should. Just don't let the discussion bother you so much.
Lol.

You're being contentious on my post about me being tired of contention?

Whatever...
This is what I was looking at.

I believe PennEd was making a thoughtful attempt to console a brother with the fact that none of us are perfect while pointing out that none of us should let it bother us too much - you know - "water off a duck's back"...

The first quoted post above - I know just what you mean. Honest. I get really tired of it too.

Sometimes, when someone posts something like the last quoted post above - it only "stirs the pot" and "intensifies the flame" - it is good to "let it pass unnoticed" (at least most of the time) - without feeling like we [simply] must "put in our dig" - because, it only makes things worse.

I believe PennEd was only trying to remind you of something you should already know very well. Then, you reacted the way you did. What is wrong with this picture?

If you see everything anyone says that you disagree with as automatically being 'contentious' - well - something is wrong somewhere...

It may not be a chip on your shoulder, but the definition of whatever it is probably includes the word 'petty' in it somewhere.

I think PennEd made some good points in that post - please consider them with humility.

What I wrote in post #56 was my observation [at the time]. I was only attempting to make you aware of how you seemed to come across.

I could be wrong - and, I am willing to admit to such things. When I know I have been wrong, I even make apologies when/where appropriate.

But, the best thing I [try my best to] do is not whine too much about or "jab back" at anyone for simply expressing their opinion. And, I [usually] try to see what is "below the surface" of a post before assuming what appears to be on the face of it.

I try not to react to my first-impression of what is on the surface of a post. Sometimes I read the post as many times as necessary to make sure I understand it properly.

"And wouldn't you know it? Because I am human, I still sometimes don't have it down pat!" :eek: o_O :unsure: :(

We know you are going through some stuff. Are not we all? And, we have compassion with our admonition.

PennEd was trying to help you - not berate you. I really do not believe that he was being contentous.

I realize your remark in post #55 was not intended to be a 'slam' on PennEd; rather, it seemed more like a pride-and-sarcasm nonchalance of the kind that "looks down your nose" at someone.

So, while not having a 'serious' level-of-intent (like anger), it nonetheless came across as having a pride-based attitude behind it.

Of course, this is the internet...

Often, what we read that others post does not always reflect the true nature of the mindset of the writer of the post.

I know this well - because, I get accused of things that I know good-and-well are nothing of the sort.

So - the point is - how about - let us all forgive-and-forget and let-it-go - and, start over.

I don't think anyone really meant to be offensive. And, it is really not worth prolonging.

I believe PennEd was trying to be a caring brother.

At the very least - try to appreciate his good intent.

"Food for thought..."
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
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#63
This is what I was looking at.

I believe PennEd was making a thoughtful attempt to console a brother with the fact that none of us are perfect while pointing out that none of us should let it bother us too much - you know - "water off a duck's back"...

The first quoted post above - I know just what you mean. Honest. I get really tired of it too.

Sometimes, when someone posts something like the last quoted post above - it only "stirs the pot" and "intensifies the flame" - it is good to "let it pass unnoticed" (at least most of the time) - without feeling like we [simply] must "put in our dig" - because, it only makes things worse.

I believe PennEd was only trying to remind you of something you should already know very well. Then, you reacted the way you did. What is wrong with this picture?

If you see everything anyone says that you disagree with as automatically being 'contentious' - well - something is wrong somewhere...

It may not be a chip on your shoulder, but the definition of whatever it is probably includes the word 'petty' in it somewhere.

I think PennEd made some good points in that post - please consider them with humility.

What I wrote in post #56 was my observation [at the time]. I was only attempting to make you aware of how you seemed to come across.

I could be wrong - and, I am willing to admit to such things. When I know I have been wrong, I even make apologies when/where appropriate.

But, the best thing I [try my best to] do is not whine too much about or "jab back" at anyone for simply expressing their opinion. And, I [usually] try to see what is "below the surface" of a post before assuming what appears to be on the face of it.

I try not to react to my first-impression of what is on the surface of a post. Sometimes I read the post as many times as necessary to make sure I understand it properly.

"And wouldn't you know it? Because I am human, I still sometimes don't have it down pat!" :eek: o_O :unsure: :(

We know you are going through some stuff. Are not we all? And, we have compassion with our admonition.

PennEd was trying to help you - not berate you. I really do not believe that he was being contentous.

I realize your remark in post #55 was not intended to be a 'slam' on PennEd; rather, it seemed more like a pride-and-sarcasm nonchalance of the kind that "looks down your nose" at someone.

So, while not having a 'serious' level-of-intent (like anger), it nonetheless came across as having a pride-based attitude behind it.

Of course, this is the internet...

Often, what we read that others post does not always reflect the true nature of the mindset of the writer of the post.

I know this well - because, I get accused of things that I know good-and-well are nothing of the sort.

So - the point is - how about - let us all forgive-and-forget and let-it-go - and, start over.

I don't think anyone really meant to be offensive. And, it is really not worth prolonging.

I believe PennEd was trying to be a caring brother.

At the very least - try to appreciate his good intent.

"Food for thought..."
Why all the comments about PennEd?

I began my response to him with "lol", and you're now claiming that was some sort of prideful looking down my nose?

Seriously (no "lol" this time), just give it a rest.

You're so far removed from reality in your assessment of me that it isn't even potentially funny.

Quite frankly, I'd look for a chip on your own shoulder if i were you...and I wouldn't be surprised if this whole "When was Jesus begotten?" thing is your own chip.

You and I have disagreed on this topic since my first time through here, and, again, quite frankly, you are too proud to admit your own error in relation to the same.

Anyhow, you can have the last word.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
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#64
After all, it's only by PRIDE that contention comes, and some of you just can't seem to fulfill your unquenchable desires for PROUD CONTENTION.
I’m just trying to figure out what all this has to do with John 3:18
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,138
216
63
#65
Romans 11… I shared it earlier in another thread..

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


You can’t deny that. It is a perfect explanation.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#66
I’m just trying to figure out what all this has to do with John 3:18
It has nothing at all to do with it.

Simply put, when you've got people here who have issues with you, they'll take any opportunity available to them to take a jab at you.

Anyhow, I do have something to add in relation to the actual verse at hand, and I'll try to do so after work later on today.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#67
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:18

Some folks believe Jews are saved because they’re Jews. I don’t see how an unbeliever has salvation.
After believing that for a number of years something changed. Now i will ask about if a person is 1/2 Jewish are they 1/2 saved? Maybe they must be 3/4 . It is not the blood i the veins of the us humans that saves it is the shed Blood of the Jesus the Christ !
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
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#68
.
Believers are NOT "adopted" into the family of God. Believers are BORN
again into the family of God.

Were folks born into God's home, they would be His offspring, and as such
they would be just as much divine as Himself because that's the way
reproduction works, viz: like begets like, i.e. reproduction produces more of
the same.

Folks who undergo the birth that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8 don't become
divine, rather, they become creatures.

2Cor 5:17 . . If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature

Gal 6:15 . . For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor
uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The new creatures are then placed in God's home as His adopted kin.

Gal 4:4-5 . .When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His
son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were
under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 . . Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Adoption has the advantage of giving children a right to be known by their
dad's name, a right to a place in his genealogy, and a right to inherit just the
same as children born in home.

Rom 8:15-17 . . For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
The Spirit himself corroborates with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs -- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.

Eph 1:11 . . In whom also we have obtained an inheritance

A joint-heir is different than a regular heir. Regular heirs are apportioned an
individual percentage of their benefactor's estate. But joint-heirs inherit, not
a percentage, but the entire estate as community property.

For example: supposing a benefactor's estate totals 60 acres of land, 18
gold bars, plus a hedge fund worth 200,000 US Dollars; and he left it all to
six heirs in common. In that situation; the heirs are corporately one
beneficiary instead of six; viz: all six inherit all the land, all the gold, and the
entire fund as if each one were the only heir.

The extent of God's estate is astonishing. It encompasses not only all that is
in Heaven, but also whatever pertains to the new cosmos spoken of in Isa
66:17, 2Pet 3:13, and Rev 21:1; and I don't know what else.

John 3:35 . .The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his
hand

John 16:15 . . All things that the Father has are mine.

Point being: Jesus' adoptive siblings are blessed with a hope chest filled with
wealth and privilege beyond imagination. And if I understand the parable of
the treasure correctly (Matt 13:44) then I think it's safe to assume Jesus has
no regrets regarding the price he paid to obtain them.
_
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#69
FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are NOT "adopted" into the family of God. Believers are BORN
again into the family of God.
.
Were folks born into God's home, they would be His offspring, and as such
they would be just as much divine as Himself because that's the way
reproduction works

Why do you question the Word of God? Both John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 SAY that we are God's children through faith. And other verses tell us that we are born again by faith. The believer's adoption is STILL future, per Rom 8:23.

To your point, when a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (indwelling) and therefore we HAVE the divine IN us. That doesn't make us "divine as Himself" but it marks the believer as God's own possession. A guarantee of eternal security.

Folks who undergo the birth that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8 don't become
divine, rather, they become creatures.
We are BORN creatures. When we believe in Christ, we become NEW CREATURES. That means we are God's children.


2Cor 5:17 . . If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature
There it is.


Gal 6:15 . . For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor
uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ditto.


The new creatures are then placed in God's home as His adopted kin.
And, do you have a verse that says this?


Gal 4:4-5 . .When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His
son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were
under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And all believers WILL "receive the adoption of sons", which is still FUTURE, per Romans 8:23.


Eph 1:5 . . Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Yep. And STILL future.


Adoption has the advantage of giving children a right to be known by their
dad's name, a right to a place in his genealogy, and a right to inherit just the
same as children born in home.
And your adoption is still future.


Rom 8:15-17 . . For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
The Spirit himself corroborates with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs -- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
Rom 8:23 says it is STILL FUTURE.


Eph 1:11 . . In whom also we have obtained an inheritance
And that is future too. Eph 1:13,14


A joint-heir is different than a regular heir. Regular heirs are apportioned an
individual percentage of their benefactor's estate. But joint-heirs inherit, not
a percentage, but the entire estate as community property.
No, the difference is that being an heir means we have an inheritance based on being God's child.
Being a "co-heir with Christ" is reference to "sharing in His glory" (reigning with Him in His Millennial kingdom-2 Tim 2:12) by "sharing in His suffering (enduring, per 2 Tim 2:12).


For example: supposing a benefactor's estate totals 60 acres of land, 18
gold bars, plus a hedge fund worth 200,000 US Dollars; and he left it all to
six heirs in common. In that situation; the heirs are corporately one
beneficiary instead of six; viz: all six inherit all the land, all the gold, and the
entire fund as if each one were the only heir.
The extent of God's estate is astonishing. It encompasses not only all that is
in Heaven, but also whatever pertains to the new cosmos spoken of in Isa
66:17, 2Pet 3:13, and Rev 21:1; and I don't know what else.


John 3:35 . .The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his
hand


John 16:15 . . All things that the Father has are mine.

Point being: Jesus' adoptive siblings are blessed with a hope chest filled with
wealth and privilege beyond imagination. And if I understand the parable of
the treasure correctly (Matt 13:44) then I think it's safe to assume Jesus has
no regrets regarding the price he paid to obtain them._
Scriptural fact: adoption is future, per Romans 8:23. Becoming a new creature occurs at faith in Christ when we are born AGAIN.

Do you know what being born again specifically refers to?

If you do, please explain.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
1,084
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#70
.
For folks awaiting adoption to become God's kin per Gal 4:4-5 and Eph 1:5,
the verse below is not true.

1John 3:2 . . Beloved, now we are children of God

Children awaiting adoption are stuck in Children's Services (so to speak) as
either orphans or foster kids, and have not yet obtained the right to speak of
God and/or speak to God, as "Abba, Father" per Rom 8:15 and Gal 4:6.
_
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
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448
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#71
Romans 8:15-16 (ESV) 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
448
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#72
Sorry... meant to include that the verse in #71 is both present and past tense.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
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#73
.
For folks awaiting adoption to become God's kin per Gal 4:4-5 and Eph 1:5,
the verse below is not true.


1John 3:2 . . Beloved, now we are children of God

You're not getting the point. The adoption of believers is future. Rom 8:23 tells us exactly when we will "receive adoption".

Children awaiting adoption are stuck in Children's Services (so to speak) as
either orphans or foster kids, and have not yet obtained the right to speak of
God and/or speak to God, as "Abba, Father" per Rom 8:15 and Gal 4:6._
None of this is relevant to biblical adoption.

Equating Roman adoption, which is what Paul was referring to with 20th Century adoption is a mistake. They aren't even close.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#74
Romans 8:15-16 (ESV) 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Yes, the "Spirit of adoption" is the Holy Spirit, and He WILL complete the adoption WHEN Rom 8:23 says so. Future.

Oh, and the words "as son" means we WAIT for our adoption as sons.

In the Roman world, adoption was a formal event where the father's child chosen to carry on his name is formally adopted; much like a "coming of age" celebration. It was the legal agreement that gives the adopted child (the father's own son) the right to the father's estate.

The key is to understand WHEN the believer's adoption will occur. See Rom 8:23.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#75
Sorry... meant to include that the verse in #71 is both present and past tense.
Are you referring to the verse having both a present and past tense verb in it? Which verse and what verbs, please?

Thanks.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
1,084
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Oregon
#76
.
The key is to understand WHEN the believer's adoption will occur. See Rom
8:23.

Rom 8:16 and 1John 3:2 say that I am God's child now, whereas Rom 8:23
says my body won't be His till later on.

I'm a little curious as to why the Spirit hasn't verified your adoption. Could it
be that you haven't correctly undergone the birth spoken of by John 1:12-13
and John 3:3-8? Yes; I think that's very likely at the root of your problem.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
1,084
113
Oregon
#77
.
.
Rom 8:16 and 1John 3:2 say that I am God's child now, whereas Rom 8:23
says my body won't be His till later on.

That needs some clarification.

A portion of that should say my resurrected body won't be God's till later
because according to 1Cor 6:20, my natural body is His now.
_
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#79
I'm sincerely glad to hear that.

I am likewise doing the same.

There isn't more to it, with the "it" specifically referring to when Jesus was actually "begotten", and I'll prove the same momentarily by addressing your claims and the scriptures that you cited in attempts to prove or substantiate your claims.

In reality, there's no such sense, and if you'll seriously consider what I'm about to say, then you'll easily and clearly see this for yourself.

The Apostle John penned these words, right?

Well, ask yourself the following question:

When did the Apostle John "behold his glory" or, more specifically, "the glory as of the only begotten of the Father"?

I mean, John was obviously talking about something that he "beheld" during Christ's incarnation, BUT did John see Christ's "glory as of the only begotten of the Father" pre-resurrection or post-resurrection?

The correct answer is post-resurrection, and we can know this of a certainty by simply reading the words of Jesus that this same Apostle John penned later on in this same gospel.

I'm referring to the following:

John chapter 17

[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

It wasn't until Jesus was crucified, buried, and RISEN FROM THE DEAD that the Father "glorified his Son" or glorified Jesus "with the glory that he had with the Father before the world was".

THIS is "the glory as of the only begotten of the Father" (John 1:14) that John "beheld", and he "beheld" it POST-RESURRECTION or after Jesus had been "begotten" or raised from the dead.

Unlike the vast majority of professing Christians today, the Apostle John fully understood what Jesus being "begotten" actually meant.

He did, after all, later on pen the following:

Revelation chapter 1

[4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Again, the Apostle John fully understood that Jesus truly is "the only begotten Son of God" or "the first begotten of the dead" in that Jesus Christ is the only person to have ever been raised from the dead who has already received his glorified body. The rest of us have this hope, but Jesus truly is "the only begotten Son of God" or "the first begotten of the dead" even as I type.

Again, in reality, there's simply no such sense.

Remember, John is writing POST-RESURRECTION. With such being the case, he's simply saying "that we might live through him", with the "him" being Jesus, because he is God's "only begotten Son" or the only person to have ever been raised from the dead who has already received his glorified body. As I've said before, there is NO SALVATION offered to anybody apart from Christ's resurrection from the dead and our belief in the same.

Perhaps this will help you to better understand what John was actually saying here.

Turning back to the gospel of this same Apostle John which had previously been penned, John said the following:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18)

Again, in his gospel, John was writing POST-RESURRECTION.

With this reality in mind, how did "the only begotten Son" wind up "in the bosom of the Father"?

Well, I believe that Moses gave us the correct answer to this question.

Please consider the following:

Exodus chapter 4

[1] And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
[2] And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
[3] And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.
[4] And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
[5] That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
[6] And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
[7] And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
[8] And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.

The LORD gave signs to Moses by which he was to convince the children of Israel that he had actually sent Moses unto them, and these signs pointed directly to Jesus Christ.

In relation to the first sign, Jesus is the rod who was cast down to the ground or to this earth in that he left heaven to come to this earth. While here, figuratively speaking, he became a serpent, similar to the serpent on the pole that Moses was instructed to make, in that he became sin for us or took upon himself all of the sins that we had committed while in league with "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan" (Rev. 12:9, 20:2). Ultimately, he was picked back up, or resurrected from the dead, and he returned to his former state before being cast down to the ground.

The same exact principle applies in the second sign that the LORD gave to Moses. In other words, in the same manner that Moses placed his hand in his bosom, Jesus was initially in the bosom of the Father. Similarly, when Moses removed his hand from his bosom and it became leprous, when Jesus left the Father's bosom to come to this earth, he, figuratively speaking, became leprous by taking all of our sins upon himself. Finally, when Moses' hand was again returned to his bosom, it returned to its former state, and Christ similarly did the same when he returned to the Father's bosom AFTER HE WAS BEGOTTEN OR AFTER HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

Again, my point is that John fully understood what it meant that Jesus was "begotten", and it had nothing to do with either his earthly birth or with something that allegedly took place prior to Christ's incarnation.

I'm sorry, but that's all that I probably have time for today.
If I understand you correctly, you believe Jesus wasn’t God’s only begotten Son prior to being a human. When He was a human, He also wasn’t God’s only begotten Son until after resurrection?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
The key is to understand WHEN the believer's adoption will occur. See Rom
8:23.
.Rom 8:16 and 1John 3:2 say that I am God's child now

Those who have believed in Christ ARE God's child NOW. YES.

whereas Rom 8:23 says my body won't be His till later on.
Didn't you read the verse?


Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

It doesn't say what you think. It SAYS your adoption is WHEN you receive your resurrected and glorified body. That's WHEN the adoption occurs.

I'm a little curious as to why the Spirit hasn't verified your adoption.
What in the world are you talking about? Where does the Bible talk about the Spirit "verifying" one's adoption?

Could it be that you haven't correctly undergone the birth spoken of by John 1:12-13
and John 3:3-8? Yes; I think that's very likely at the root of your problem._
Nope. I placed my faith (trust) in Jesus Christ when I was 7. Which is when I was born again.

I think the root of YOUR problem is poor reading skills. You totally misread Rom 8:23, and I suspect, from what you have posted, you have done the same thing with Rom 8:16.