Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Mii]

@HatedForNoReason

I'm uncertain of how to respond to you because you don't seem to be reading what post I was quoting

Did you have something specific you'd like to discuss?

I think believers ARE hated for a reason. That reason is Jesus, but that those that hate because of this are lacking in "Godly reason" that transcends the logic and reasoning of the fallen nature if that makes sense.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

@HatedForNoReason

I'm uncertain of how to respond to you because you don't seem to be reading what post I was quoting

Did you have something specific you'd like to discuss?

I think believers ARE hated for a reason. That reason is Jesus, but that those that hate because of this are lacking in "Godly reason" that transcends the logic and reasoning of the fallen nature if that makes sense.[/QUOTE
It would make sense that the symbolic 144,000=total amount of God's elects since beginning of creation till end of time. They have feast after Great White Throne Judgment.

https://testallthings.com/2009/10/02/the-identity-of-the-144000/

 

[Runningman]

I know this thread is fairly old, but I recently encountered someone who said the 144,000 would just "miss out on that" or something along those lines.

I'm like...do you hear yourself? Sucks for them then doesn't it. Everyone else is experiencing what believers should ALL be looking forward to but these ones just "have it rough".

Somewhat disturbing to me because I've tried with some people to just get them to "simulate" that they may be wrong that no one gets a free pass to escape tribulation.

How in anyone's life/walk is the "blessed hope" to escape tribulation...did martyrs have no "blessed hope"? Did they get scammed?

What is persecution? What is martyrdom?

I digress.

I find that an examination of the ministry of Jesus shows that He wants His followers to be tough as nails and endure the worst possible scenarios, up to and including martyrdom. Many quotes by Jesus about enduring persecution and tribulation.

Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation.

The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib.

Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction.

That's just a bit about why post-trib is a more sound and Biblical interpretation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But there IS a verse that tells us God will take people to the homes He has prepared for His bride.

John 14:1-3. But Jesus was ASSURRING the disciples that they will be in heaven. Jesus hadn't died yet. He did go to heaven as the ascension, where He did prepare a place for them. There is NOTHING sbout a rapture or Him taking resurrected believers to heaven. Zero.

So what if He did not call them resurrected. Do you deny John wrote that passage? Or do you deny that the church will be taken to the homes?

EVERYONE who dies before the Second Advent WILL go to heaven. Of course. But there are NO VERSES that describe jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Zero.

The truth is, some people have died, SEEN their own mansion, but God had to send them back to earth because people were praying.

Huh? What's your point here?

There can be no doubt there are mansions He has built. They are going to be our homes for seven plus years.

Actually, they have been the homes to the 11 disciples for over 2,000 years. Those believers who die at the beginning of the Trib will be in their homes for 7 years, yes, but so what?

You do NOT have a verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Are you aware that there is only ONE resurrection for saved people?

Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

Prove me wrong. I've just given you the proof.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You can try to force the resurrection of all the righteous into ONE resurrection, but you will be wrong. The truth, as you have stated, is that there are only TWO resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 for all people, saved and unsaved. One is titled "the first resurrection. I have called the second one, the "second death resurrection.

This paragraph is internally contradicted. You first tell me that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, and then you tell me there are only 2 resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 for all people. Duh. Right. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

That is precisely what Paul said in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

One each. Obviously. And then Paul clarified even further about WHEN the saved resurrection will occur.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, you tell me, from this verse, just WHEN that single saved resurrection will occur.

What you have missed: Jesus own resurrection was the firstfruits of that "first" or most honorable resurrection.

Didn't miss a thing. 1 Cor 15:23 notes that Jesus was the first to be resurrected. And then, WHEN HE COMES, an obvious reference to the Second Coming, "those who belong to Him", which is an obvious reference to EVERY SAVED human from Adam on.

So if you think there will be a pretrib rapture, which occurs with a resurrection, you've got a huge problem with Rev 20, which specifically says the resurrection of trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection.

The next wave will be the church, resurrected pretrib. The next wave will be the Old Testament saints, resurrected on the last day - the last 24 hours - of the 70th week. (Their resurrection will be marked by the world's worst earthquake.) Along with the OT saints, the Two witnesses and the beheaded will be resurrected at the same time. God did not tell us that this resurrection for all the righteous would happen all at once. Scripture tells us otherwise.

You have been taught false doctrine. There will be only 1 resurrection for the saved, as I have shown from several verses. Your problem is not with me, but with the Word of God.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Jesus' words, not mine. THE resurrection of the righteous. One resurrection.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Again, just one resurrection for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15;23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

All believers will be resurrected at the same event. There are no "waves" of resurrection as you presume.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is easy to explain: the pretrib rapture will happen over 7 years before the gathering "after the trib" of those days.

My previous post proved that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved. Keep reading the post until it sinks in.

How can two events that will happen 7 years apart also happen at the same time? Impossible.

They don't happen severn years apart. Read my post until it all sinks in.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is easy: WHERE did Christ go? He said He was to GO and build homes for us. WHERE are the homes?

Heaven. Of course. Why do you try to force some pretrib journey to get to those homes. All the disciples died within 50 years of when Jesus said that. And they ALL went to those homes.

You're proving nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's see: He came first to die on the cross. CHECK!
His next coming will certainly be His SECOND coming. CHECK!

Where you disagree with scripture is you imagine His coming to Armageddon will be His second coming. No, His second coming is found in 1 Thes. 4. It is a coming before wrath and before the DAY. You need to rethink where you place the DAY. John and the Holy Spirit start the DAY Of the Lord before the 70th week.

So you believe that there are THREE Advents of Christ. That is simply delirious.

Christ came to earth as a baby, and suffering servant. He will come back as King of kings and Lord of lords.

You have been badly misled.

 

[Absolutely]

All of what you just said is false.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's the devil's wrath. As shown by Revelation 12:12, the great tribulation doesn't occur until immediately after the devil comes to earth with great wrath:

Rev. 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The Day of the Lord (or the Day of Christ , also known as the day of God's wrath) doesn't occur until after Jesus returns and the church is gathered. It's definitely post-tribulation:

2 Thess. 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1) God sends the 4 horsemen.
2) that is great great tribulation.
3) the bible says "all take the mark"
4) refusing the mark ends in beheading.
5) the imnumerable number before the throne are the billions beheaded. It CLEARLY SAYS they came out of the great trib.

Those dynamics alone remove your hope of going through the trib.

Jesus said " pray that you be counted worthy to escape tge things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of God"

Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"

 

[Absolutely]

"""It would make sense that the symbolic 144,000=total amount of God's elects since beginning of creation till end of time. They have feast after Great White Throne Judgment."""


nope
Because they are " first fruits".
IOW they are a small portion of the main jewish harvest vividly depicted in rev 14.

 

[Absolutely]

I find that an examination of the ministry of Jesus shows that He wants His followers to be tough as nails and endure the worst possible scenarios, up to and including martyrdom. Many quotes by Jesus about enduring persecution and tribulation.

Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation.

The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib.

Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction.

That's just a bit about why post-trib is a more sound and Biblical interpretation.

"""The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib."""

Read rev 19.

We see the bride has become the wife in heaven. We see THAT WIFE mounted on horses IN HEAVEN.

We also see the marriage supper has already happened...Just as Jesus declared at the last supper.

The gathering of the Jews in rev 14 is the last group seated at the wedding supper.
The bible points to them gathered last at the first miracle.
Water into wine.
It was declared " ....you saved the best for last"

These are more hidden truths that are unpacked as time marches forward.

IOW....The FIRST MIRACLE...HAD TO BE...AT A WEDDING...WITH WINE as the focus...and the declaration " you saved the best for last"
That is DIRECTLY pointing to rev 14

The last harvest of the earth



...just happens to be grapes...the jews

And btw.....grapes are the summer harvest.....after wheat and barley

Remember ...you heard it here first...lol

I know you have zero interest in those things.

But for me...it is fascinating and solid bible...every word 100% true and dug out of the mighty word of God via the Holy Ghost

 

[Runningman]

1) God sends the 4 horsemen.
2) that is great great tribulation.
3) the bible says "all take the mark"
4) refusing the mark ends in beheading.
5) the imnumerable number before the throne are the billions beheaded. It CLEARLY SAYS they came out of the great trib.

Those dynamics alone remove your hope of going through the trib.

Jesus said " pray that you be counted worthy to escape tge things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of God"

Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"

I don't know why you insist on portraying us as rejecting what the Bible says. We don't say "Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it." You just want to demonize people who disagree with you. That's shameful.

Rather, this is about exactly what Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36) but this is not about a pre-trib rapture.

Consider these possible options:

1. They escaped the things that shall come to pass, but it wasn't the rapture since the rapture hasn't happened yet.
2. They didn't escape the things that shall come to pass because those things have not happened yet.
3. The things that shall come to pass is referring to something else other than the great tribulation since it can be proven the disciples survived "those things that shall come to pass" and went on to preach the gospel elsewhere. See the book of Acts.

What Jesus said can be simplified down to at least three possibilities. Which one do you say it is?

 

[Absolutely]

I find that an examination of the ministry of Jesus shows that He wants His followers to be tough as nails and endure the worst possible scenarios, up to and including martyrdom. Many quotes by Jesus about enduring persecution and tribulation.

Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation.

The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib.

Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction.

That's just a bit about why post-trib is a more sound and Biblical interpretation.

"""Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction."""

I already showed you guys there is no resurrection postrib of those on thrones.

You are trying to make rev 20 into a different setting.

Re read it.
It says ZERO about "when" they were resurrected.
But if you need it to be in that PARTICULAR TIME FRAME....then lets just test fit it.

That time frame is AFTER ARMAGEDDON and into the mil.

THAT MEANS ...YOU....place the rapture AFTER armageddon.

Not only that..you just wiped out 1 thes 4.

Now your deal has the living gathered in rev 14 BEFORE THE DEAD....

Your deal os impossible.

No resurrection after armageddon.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't know why you insist on portraying us as rejecting what the Bible says. We don't say "Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it." You just want to demonize people who disagree with you. That's shameful.

Rather, this is about exactly what Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36) but this is not about a pre-trib rapture.

Consider these possible options:

1. They escaped the things that shall come to pass, but it wasn't the rapture since the rapture hasn't happened yet.
2. They didn't escape the things that shall come to pass because those things have not happened yet.
3. The things that shall come to pass is referring to something else other than the great tribulation since it can be proven the disciples survived "those things that shall come to pass" and went on to preach the gospel elsewhere. See the book of Acts.

What Jesus said can be simplified down to at least three possibilities. Which one do you say it is?

the postribber banner places us that "DO PRAY TO BE COUNTED worthy," as wimpy believers that are not brave like you guys.

So yes why would you pray that????

Further...the parable of the virgins have the worthy ones escaping with the foolish wandering in the trib.

Postrib talking points ( as well as pretribbers) say " how dare you assert that half the church is left behind"
I just read what is there.
We both know what is being said when Jesus said to pray to be counted worthy.

Re read it....it is to the church....to the saved.....some will be unworthy to escape.

Dont blame me that the escape dynamic is for only those praying to escape.

You guys DEFINITELY ...NEVER... plan to escape.

In fact you guys despise that notion...and brag about how you will be running from cave to cave with the devil man chasing you with an overgrown axe.

Well you tough guys need to get serious about the bible and cease omitting verses.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't know why you insist on portraying us as rejecting what the Bible says. We don't say "Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it." You just want to demonize people who disagree with you. That's shameful.

Rather, this is about exactly what Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36) but this is not about a pre-trib rapture.

Consider these possible options:

1. They escaped the things that shall come to pass, but it wasn't the rapture since the rapture hasn't happened yet.
2. They didn't escape the things that shall come to pass because those things have not happened yet.
3. The things that shall come to pass is referring to something else other than the great tribulation since it can be proven the disciples survived "those things that shall come to pass" and went on to preach the gospel elsewhere. See the book of Acts.

What Jesus said can be simplified down to at least three possibilities. Which one do you say it is?

...except you overlooked that there are 2 ESCAPE VERSES BY JESUS.

Bet you are unaware..correct?

If you dont know..i will look it up for you.
( you will NEVER find it in ANY postribber talking points)
Hint.....Jesus says it is coming on the whole world.

So your guessing about it being a local temple and Jerusalem falling is far from truth.
But in mental interpretations we need to understand certain apparent dilemmas in what Jesus says.

For example, Jesus declared over his disciples..."not one hair of your head will be harmed"..... yet almost all died violent deaths.
Face value mental interpretations are a problem

 

[Absolutely]

"""I don't know why you insist on portraying us as rejecting what the Bible says. We don't say "Nope you got it wrong Jesus.""""

Too funny

I bet you pray everyday..." Lord Jesus ,let me be counted worthy to escape the gt"

Nope...why would you pray that????????

Watch this.....I DO.
JUST LIKE JESUS SAID

 

[Absolutely]

So you believe that there are THREE Advents of Christ. That is simply delirious.

Christ came to earth as a baby, and suffering servant. He will come back as King of kings and Lord of lords.

You have been badly misled.

SO REV 14 is a lie?????

 

[Absolutely]

John 14:1-3. But Jesus was ASSURRING the disciples that they will be in heaven. Jesus hadn't died yet. He did go to heaven as the ascension, where He did prepare a place for them. There is NOTHING sbout a rapture or Him taking resurrected believers to heaven. Zero.


EVERYONE who dies before the Second Advent WILL go to heaven. Of course. But there are NO VERSES that describe jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Zero.


Huh? What's your point here?


Actually, they have been the homes to the 11 disciples for over 2,000 years. Those believers who die at the beginning of the Trib will be in their homes for 7 years, yes, but so what?

You do NOT have a verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Are you aware that there is only ONE resurrection for saved people?

Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

Prove me wrong. I've just given you the proof.

They were martyrs.

They are kept under the altar.

So your deal falls apart.

 

[Absolutely]

I find that an examination of the ministry of Jesus shows that He wants His followers to be tough as nails and endure the worst possible scenarios, up to and including martyrdom. Many quotes by Jesus about enduring persecution and tribulation.

Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation.

The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib.

Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction.

That's just a bit about why post-trib is a more sound and Biblical interpretation.

"""Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation"""

Like i said...why would you obey Jesus and pray to escape?????

Makes no sense

I can ASSURE YOU...
That postrib doctrine beast took you guys out into a wasteland and died a long time ago.

You can keep whipping it...but it is dead. And left you guys fiercely modifying verses.

 

[lamad]

So you believe that there are THREE Advents of Christ. That is simply delirious.

Christ came to earth as a baby, and suffering servant. He will come back as King of kings and Lord of lords.

You have been badly misled.

Please allow me to rewrite as a correction:

So you believe that there are THREE Advents of Christ. That is simply scripture. (Much better.)

Christ came to earth as a baby, and suffering servant. He will come back as King of kings and Lord of lords.

This is a true statement. But so is this: He will also come back first to collect His bride - around 7 years before He comes as King to Armageddon.