Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[kleronomos]

There isn't anything about "smoke" in Rev 20:10. Just the FACT that they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.

Here is where you say it is written in REv 20:10 and just like I said IT DOESN'T SAY SOULS ARE TORMENTED FOREVER.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now I have shown you where the DEVIL BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET are tormented day and night for ever and ever

SO YOU SHOW ME WHAT YOU SAY AND THAT IS

'"WHERE SOULS ARE''' TORMENTED FOREVER AND EVER, and then I will believe THAT IS WRITTEN. If you do that then we will proceed to a study of forever and ever and everlasting and etc and then we will move on the the difference between this age and the next.


BUT what I am looking for now is WHERE IT IS WRITTEN that souls are to be tormented forever and ever in the LOF.

I am not looking for Scripture THAT WOULD LEAD YOU TO JUMP TO THAT CONCLUSION, just where it is written as I have showed you the DEVIL BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET will be.

 

[kleronomos]

Armageddon is a one sided victory and please don't take everything in Revelation literally.

Don't you worry one bit as I don't see a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy A 'LITERALLY' at all.

 

[kleronomos]

There isn't anything about "smoke" in Rev 20:10. Just the FACT that they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.


It IS what is written. I gave you 3 verses, but you are so maudlin in your sentiments, you just won't believe the Bible.

So funny....

 

[kleronomos]

Do you EVEN read what I post?? I quoted what Jesus said, and you come back with a ridiculous "condescension" comment.

Are you?

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Don't you worry one bit as I don't see a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy A 'LITERALLY' at all.

Best way to understand Revelation is compare all the verses in the bible and pray to God for understanding.

https://testallthings.com/category/eschatology/

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is where you say it is written in REv 20:10 and just like I said IT DOESN'T SAY SOULS ARE TORMENTED FOREVER.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now I have shown you where the DEVIL BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET are tormented day and night for ever and ever

And the beast, and false prophet are human beings. So why wouldn't the REST of all unbelievers who will be CAST into the lake of fire NOT "be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is the beast , FP, and the devil who are the first to be cast into the lake of fire This shows what will happen to everyone else who will be cast into the lake of fire.

SO YOU SHOW ME WHAT YOU SAY AND THAT IS

'"WHERE SOULS ARE''' TORMENTED FOREVER AND EVER, and then I will believe THAT IS WRITTEN. If you do that then we will proceed to a study of forever and ever and everlasting and etc and then we will move on the the difference between this age and the next.

BUT what I am looking for now is WHERE IT IS WRITTEN that souls are to be tormented forever and ever in the LOF.

Do you think their resurrected physical bodies will be tormented for ever and ever? Of course not. That's why the LOF is called the "SECOND DEATH". The unsaved's bodies will die again. But not their souls.

I am not looking for Scripture THAT WOULD LEAD YOU TO JUMP TO THAT CONCLUSION,

Right here is your MAIN PROBLEM. You DON'T want verses that DO conclude what I believe. That is the height of bias.

When verses make very clear statements, plain and straghtforward, I believe them. I DON'T HAVE TO "jump to any conclusions", as you falsely claim. I simply believe the clear wordings. Unlike yourself.

just where it is written as I have showed you the DEVIL BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET will be.

In the LOF, in which also EVERY other unsaved will be cast. Rev 20:15.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There isn't anything about "smoke" in Rev 20:10. Just the FACT that they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.


It IS what is written. I gave you 3 verses, but you are so maudlin in your sentiments, you just won't believe the Bible.

So funny....

No, being maudlin is really just SAD. Not funny.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you EVEN read what I post?? I quoted what Jesus said, and you come back with a ridiculous "condescension" comment.

Are you?

Your question doesn't fit my question or comment. iow, doesn't make sensse.

 

[kleronomos]

And the beast, and false prophet are human beings. So why wouldn't the REST of all unbelievers who will be CAST into the lake of fire NOT "be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Wow. A 7 headed human that rises up from the sea. Now I have heard everything.

 

[kleronomos]

t is the beast , FP, and the devil who are the first to be cast into the lake of fire This shows what will happen to everyone else who will be cast into the lake of fire.

SO YOU SAY. You. You take what is written in one place and hook it up with what is written in another place, make a conclusion and then put forth that conclusion as if it was written when in fact it was not, IT IS A CONCLUSION on your part. I understand how very very very much you refuse to be wrong in any given situation which is causing you to be wrong in many of them but NOTHING you can put forth AS WRITTEN BY GOD says that souls will SUFFER and BE CONSCIOUS of that suffering for all eternity because the DUMB HUMAN didn't love GOD.

There is WAY more evidence that, that is, in FACT, TRUTH. The preponderance of evidence supports the claim WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN.

AGAIN, BESIDES THE FACT that it is never written 'souls' are tortured/tormented for ever and ever in the LOF

We have ALL things made new. NO REMEMBRANCE of the former things. The SMOKE of the torment goes up. God is a CONSUMING FIRE. God is just. Vessels of destruction. And there shall be no more curse. The first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


FROM GODS MOUTH TO YOUR EARS. Do you have ears to hear?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[kleronomos]

Do you think their resurrected physical bodies will be tormented for ever and ever? Of course not. That's why the LOF is called the "SECOND DEATH". The unsaved's bodies will die again. But not their souls.

BODIES DON'T RESURRECT. thou sowest not that body that shall be,




Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

People keep thinking it is because it is. DAVID is of this earth. That is the throne He will sit upon.

If they 'Jews' would have accepted and not rejected the kingdom and the King, IT would have happened right here on earth just as it will again.

There are 2 Advents. The day of vengeance is the 2nd one and JUST LIKE THE FIRST ONE was physical and on earth this next one will be ON earth but spiritual.



2 Kings 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

2Kings 6:18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

FAITH IS BELIEVING WITHOUT SEEING. The spiritual world is NO LESS PHYSICAL just not of an EARTHEN body, but a spiritual body on the earth. Just like in the beginning when the sons of God were watching the earth being created. Another subject completely so I will say no more.

https://testallthings.com/2022/07/01/questions-on-the-absurdity-of-premillennialism/
https://testallthings.com/2011/11/12/the-bottomless-pit/

-So what happens to people that die out of old age during a literal 1000 year earthly kingdom.
-Satan will do another attempt of tower of babel=world peace without God.


We are already near the end of the 1000 spiritual kingdom before Jesus gives it to God the Father.


The Real Jesus 2nd Coming is when old heaven and old earth will be destroyed by fire. The moon and sun are destroyed.

Than Great White Thone Judgment.

Revelation 22:5
King James Version

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And the beast, and false prophet are human beings. So why wouldn't the REST of all unbelievers who will be CAST into the lake of fire NOT "be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Wow. A 7 headed human that rises up from the sea. Now I have heard everything.

Where in my post did I even mention 7 heads? Are you even trying to have a discussion, or what?

Read Rev 13. Beast #1 is a human a cast alive physically into the LOF. Along with the human false prophet.

I'm curious where you find any mention of a "7 headed human" anywhere in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
t is the beast , FP, and the devil who are the first to be cast into the lake of fire This shows what will happen to everyone else who will be cast into the lake of fire.

SO YOU SAY.

I don't know why I bother trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know the Bible.

Read Rev 19:19-21. It's all there.

You.

No, the Bible.

You take what is written in one place and hook it up with what is written in another place, make a conclusion and then put forth that conclusion as if it was written when in fact it was not, IT IS A CONCLUSION on your part.

Why don't you at least READ Rev 19 BEFORE you open your mouth and insert your whole foot?

I understand how very very very much you refuse to be wrong in any given situation which is causing you to be wrong in many of them but NOTHING you can put forth AS WRITTEN BY GOD says that souls will SUFFER and BE CONSCIOUS of that suffering for all eternity because the DUMB HUMAN didn't love GOD.

Says one so unfamiliar with the Bible that he thinks the beast has 7 heads.

There is WAY more evidence that, that is, in FACT, TRUTH. The preponderance of evidence supports the claim WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN.

I have shown you the evidence. But your mind is tightly closed to the truth.

The beast and false prophet are human beings, and are thrown alive into the LOF when Jesus returns to earth. At the end of the Millennial reign, the devil is thrown in the LOF, to join the beast and false prophet. That's Rev 20:10.

In 20:10, their (beast, FP and the devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Couldn't be more clear.

Your "annihilation theory" has been annihilated.

AGAIN, BESIDES THE FACT that it is never written 'souls' are tortured/tormented for ever and ever in the LOF

I never said that. You are twisting what I said. I said the beast, FP, Devil and ALL unbelievers will be cast into the LOF and be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

We have ALL things made new. NO REMEMBRANCE of the former things.

Quit making up phony "verses" or cite where the verses are. So I can check the context and see who and what the verses refer to.

The SMOKE of the torment goes up.

There is NO smoke in Rev 20:10 so quit making up stuff.

God is a CONSUMING FIRE. God is just. Vessels of destruction. And there shall be no more curse. The first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

None of this proves your annihilation theory.

FROM GODS MOUTH TO YOUR EARS. Do you have ears to hear?

Obviously better than yours. And you can throw in the eyeballs as well.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Well, finally, a citation. Do you have any idea to whom this verse is referring? Do you think it refers to God wiping away all tears from the eyes of unbelievers? lol

You are trying to force a verse that refers to believers in the eternal state to unbelievers. Pure nonsense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think their resurrected physical bodies will be tormented for ever and ever? Of course not. That's why the LOF is called the "SECOND DEATH". The unsaved's bodies will die again. But not their souls.

BODIES DON'T RESURRECT. thou sowest not that body that shall be,

Your comments are getting more and more weird. Of course bodies resurrect. What in the world do you think is being resurrected at either resurrection?

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

These verses speak of your problem.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Show me ANY verse that actually says that God DOES and HAS destroyed souls.

The FACT that He is able to doesn't mean that He has or will. That's another problem you have. Of course he is able, and that is ALL the verse says.

Now, show me any verse that shows souls being killed.

btw, "hell' in the Greek is Hades in the Hebrew. That is a holding tank for unbelievers until they join with their physical body that will be resurrected for the GWT judgment, and then the FINAL judgment, the LOF.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
And the beast, and false prophet are human beings. So why wouldn't the REST of all unbelievers who will be CAST into the lake of fire NOT "be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Where in my post did I even mention 7 heads? Are you even trying to have a discussion, or what?

Read Rev 13. Beast #1 is a human a cast alive physically into the LOF. Along with the human false prophet.

I'm curious where you find any mention of a "7 headed human" anywhere in the Bible.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


So the beast is either a 'system' that rules over the 7 mountains (continents - deceived the whole world) and it's description is one of a continuing kingdom on down through the years (Nebo Statue) that will have 10 kings that won't even come to power until the one hour of their greatest power, the beasts greatest power when the image to be worshipped is set up for the 42 months which is also the 1260 days the two witnesses are here once Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven.

or like you say, its a human being.

 

[kleronomos]

Freegrace said 'It is the beast , FP, and the devil who are the first to be cast into the lake of fire This shows what will happen to everyone else who will be cast into the lake of fire'.

I don't know why I bother trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know the Bible.

Read Rev 19:19-21. It's all there.

If it is the beast , FP, and the devil who are the first to be cast into the lake of fire This shows what will happen to everyone else who will be cast into the lake of fire.

And that information is all found here in Rev 19:19


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


AGAIN, NOT one word about souls consciously suffering and in torment forever and ever in the lake of fire. Just as I said.

You claim that it says that but AGAIN, that isn't what is written. If so then copy and paste and HIGHLIGHT THE WORDS OF GOD and quit using your own. You can end this whole thing quickly and easily by

1. Admitting the error BY NOT GIVING a 'copy and paste and HIGHLIGHTED' Scripture stating souls are tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire

or

2. Proving me WRONG by GIVING a copy and paste and HIGHLIGHTED Scripture STATING WHAT YOU STATE IS STATED .

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think their resurrected physical bodies will be tormented for ever and ever? Of course not. That's why the LOF is called the "SECOND DEATH". The unsaved's bodies will die again. But not their souls.

kleronomos said
BODIES DON'T RESURRECT. thou sowest not that body that shall be,

Your comments are getting more and more weird. Of course bodies resurrect. What in the world do you think is being resurrected at either resurrection?

As for MY COMMENTS getting more and more weird HOW WEIRD WOULD IT BE IF THOSE WHERE THE LORDS WORDS

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.




FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think their resurrected physical bodies will be tormented for ever and ever? Of course not. That's why the LOF is called the "SECOND DEATH". The unsaved's bodies will die again. But not their souls.



TO WHICH KLERONOMOS replied: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


TO WHICH freegrace REPLIED

Show me ANY verse that actually says that God DOES and HAS destroyed souls.

The FACT that He is able to doesn't mean that He has or will. That's another problem you have. Of course he is able, and that is ALL the verse says.

Now, show me any verse that shows souls being killed.

btw, "hell' in the Greek is Hades in the Hebrew. That is a holding tank for unbelievers until they join with their physical body that will be resurrected for the GWT judgment, and then the FINAL judgment, the LOF.






Why would I show you any verse 'that actually says that God DOES and HAS destroyed souls' or any that 'show me any verse that shows souls being killed'

I have no idea why you are asking me these questions.


In case you have forgotten, you are teaching souls are tormented forever and ever, and I am teaching they are not, they are consumed and it ends.

 

[joecoten]

I think that souls being consumed is the only thing that will end all the arguing!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

OK, the beast is a political system.

So the beast is either a 'system' that rules over the 7 mountains (continents - deceived the whole world) and it's description is one of a continuing kingdom on down through the years (Nebo Statue) that will have 10 kings that won't even come to power until the one hour of their greatest power, the beasts greatest power when the image to be worshipped is set up for the 42 months which is also the 1260 days the two witnesses are here once Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven.

or like you say, its a human being.

Here's the deal. All political systems have A leader. So there's that.