Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[DavidTree]

How about this, Paul explains a mystery to us concerning the rapture in 1 Cor. 15, then gives more detail in 1-2 Thes.

A biblical mystery is something that has not been known by man but is now revealed.

Paul explains other mysteries in his epistles that were not previously known.

The rapture Paul explains and the Second Coming are not the same event.

The Apostle Paul did not say the rapture is a mystery.

Paul said our transformation from corruptible to incorruptible is the mystery.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

 

[DavidTree]

I have shown it before, the elect in Matt. 24 are Israel. The entire 24th chapter of Matt. is addressed to the Jews.

Isa. 11:11-12

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

This is the gathering of Matt. 24:31. It is Israel!

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

 

[Charlie24]

The Apostle Paul did not say the rapture is a mystery.

Paul said our transformation from corruptible to incorruptible is the mystery.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The whole rapture thing is a mystery, David, not just what you choose to be a mystery.

 

[DavidTree]

The whole rapture thing is a mystery, David, not just what you choose to be a mystery.

Paul focused the mystery as the transition from corruptible to incorruptible.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Paul did not elaborate on the rapture but rather on the Glorious Transformation of our corruptible bodies into His Likeness.

The Apostles Paul & John also says to us FOCUS on the PRIZE = the Upward Calling in Jesus Christ.

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

His LOVE for you and me Brother is not the rapture but what takes Place at His Coming = Resurrection/Transformation into His Likeness.

You and i want that more then anything.

 

[Charlie24]

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is saying the Israelites in Christ are Israelites. God does not respect those outside of Christ, they are not the children of God.

"Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" puts to death the claim of Israel that they are saved because they are Jews, the natural seed of Abraham.

When God gathers all the Jews together at the Second Coming they will all then see that Jesus is the Messiah. Every Jew in the world will then come to Israel to be with Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is saying the Israelites in Christ are Israelites. God does not respect those outside of Christ, they are not the children of God.

"Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" puts to death the claim of Israel that they are saved because they are Jews, the natural seed of Abraham.

When God gathers all the Jews together at the Second Coming they will all then see that Jesus is the Messiah. Every Jew in the world will then come to Israel to be with Christ.

AGREE - But remember, the LORD says HE will send His angels to gather HIS Elect = Blood washed Saints from the four corners of the earth.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied

 

[Charlie24]

Paul focused the mystery as the transition from corruptible to incorruptible.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Paul did not elaborate on the rapture but rather on the Glorious Transformation of our corruptible bodies into His Likeness.

The Apostles Paul & John also says to us FOCUS on the PRIZE = the Upward Calling in Jesus Christ.

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

His LOVE for you and me Brother is not the rapture but what takes Place at His Coming = Resurrection/Transformation into His Likeness.

You and i want that more then anything.

David, do you as a born-again Christian believe that the Second Coming of Christ will take you as a thief in the night?

Knowing that the Second Coming is when Christ destroys the anti-christ and all of Rev. 5-19 will take place before His return?

NO, it is not a thief in the night for the Christian that believes the scripture. It's a thief in the night for Israel that doesn't care about Christ or His Word. They will be the ones taken by surprise at His Second Coming.

But what about the born-again that study the scripture and know the signs of His Second Coming, what are we to be ready for, what will take us as a thief in the night? Maybe the rapture that could take place any moment?

 

[Charlie24]

AGREE - But remember, the LORD says HE will send His angels to gather HIS Elect = Blood washed Saints from the four corners of the earth.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied

The elect gathered are Israel. You are not recognizing Israel in any of this.

 

[DavidTree]

David, do you as a born-again Christian believe that the Second Coming of Christ will take you as a thief in the night?

Knowing that the Second Coming is when Christ destroys the anti-christ and all of Rev. 5-19 will take place before His return?

NO, it is not a thief in the night for the Christian that believes the scripture. It's a thief in the night for Israel that doesn't care about Christ or His Word. They will be the ones taken by surprise at His Second Coming.

But what about the born-again that study the scripture and know the signs of His Second Coming, what are we to be ready for, what will take us as a thief in the night? Maybe the rapture that could take place any moment?

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[DavidTree]

The elect gathered are Israel. You are not recognizing Israel in any of this.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See!
Your house is left to you desolate;
for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Matt 23:37

 

[Charlie24]

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

"Them" is Israel, David! Paul is telling you just what I told you. They (Israel) will be caught by surprise not the church.

Remember the parable of the 10 virgins? All 10 belonged to Christ, we know this because all are called virgins.

When the bridegroom came 5 were left behind and 5 went to the marriage supper, how did this happen?

This is not Israel, this is the church. It's the rapture that took them as a thief in the night.

We have to recognize that God deals separately with Israel and the Church.

 

[DavidTree]

"Them" is Israel, David! Paul is telling you just what I told you. They (Israel) will be caught by surprise not the church.

Remember the parable of the 10 virgins? All 10 belonged to Christ, we know this because all are called virgins.

When the bridegroom came 5 were left behind and 5 went to the marriage supper, how did this happen?

This is not Israel, this is the church. It's the rapture that took them as a thief in the night.

We have to recognize that God deals separately with Israel and the Church.

The rapture does not come as a thief in the night - the complete opposite = for you brethren are not in darkness....

The Resurrection occurs before the rapture and the Resurrection is preceded by the Last TRUMPET Call.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable - 1 Cor 15:52

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 1 Thess 4:13-18

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt ch24

 

[Charlie24]

The rapture does not come as a thief in the night - the complete opposite = for you brethren are not in darkness....

The Resurrection occurs before the rapture and the Resurrection is preceded by the Last TRUMPET Call.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable - 1 Cor 15:52

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 1 Thess 4:13-18

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt ch24

I like the way you run those scriptures together to make it look like Israel is nowhere in the forecast of God's plan.

You will never understand the rapture until you recognize that God is also dealing with Israel, and the Church separately.

That's your problem with this, you don't understand what we are saying concerning Israel and the Church.

For you Israel is out of it, rejected by God and it's all about the Church. But Paul said "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:26-27).

You even have this separation of Israel and the Church in your above post and don't even realize it!

 

[ewq1938]

What verse shows another rapture, or the giving of a glorified body to people? That's what is needed to accept multiple resurrection/raptures.

I did not mention anything about a resurrection or a rapture.

 

[DavidTree]

I like the way you run those scriptures together to make it look like Israel is nowhere in the forecast of God's plan.

You will never understand the rapture until you recognize that God is also dealing with Israel, and the Church separately.

That's your problem with this, you don't understand what we are saying concerning Israel and the Church.

For you Israel is out of it, rejected by God and it's all about the Church. But Paul said "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:26-27).

You even have this separation of Israel and the Church in your above post and don't even realize it!

The earthbund Israel is not completely out of the picture = it is no longer the main focus

Israel is out of the MAIN picture starting in Matt ch23:37 = "Your house is left to you desolate"

God's Heart is in His Israel according to His Election of Grace = the Redeemed of the LORD.

Matt ch24 is about Christ and His Bride and His return for His Elect/Bride/Saints.
Matt 25:1-13 Parable is also about His Coming for His Saints.
1 Peter & 2 Peter is about the Israel of God thru the Blood of Christ.
1 Thess 4:13-18 & 2 Thess ch2 & 1 Cor ch15 & 1 John & Hebrews ch9 & James and Revelation is about His Bride/Elect/Saints.

There is a MYSTERY that has not yet been revealed to you in Revelation about this.

 

[Charlie24]

The rapture does not come as a thief in the night - the complete opposite = for you brethren are not in darkness....

The Resurrection occurs before the rapture and the Resurrection is preceded by the Last TRUMPET Call.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable - 1 Cor 15:52

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 1 Thess 4:13-18

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt ch24

You are right that the rapture has no reference to "the thief in the night" only the Second Coming does.

"The thief in the night" is illustrated in the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the faithful and unfaithful servants.

In the servants parable, Matt. 24:45-51, let's look at that illustration.

Matt. 24:48-51

"But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This is the Church, it concerns the rapture not the Second Coming.

 

[Charlie24]

The earthbund Israel is not completely out of the picture = it is no longer the main focus

Israel is out of the MAIN picture starting in Matt ch23:37 = "Your house is left to you desolate"

God's Heart is in His Israel according to His Election of Grace = the Redeemed of the LORD.

Matt ch24 is about Christ and His Bride and His return for His Elect/Bride/Saints.
Matt 25:1-13 Parable is also about His Coming for His Saints.
1 Peter & 2 Peter is about the Israel of God thru the Blood of Christ.
1 Thess 4:13-18 & 2 Thess ch2 & 1 Cor ch15 & 1 John & Hebrews ch9 & James and Revelation is about His Bride/Elect/Saints.

There is a MYSTERY that has not yet been revealed to you in Revelation about this.

The main purpose of the great tribulation is for Israel to be saved. This is the time of "Jacob's trouble" not the Churches trouble!

 

[DavidTree]

You are right that the rapture has no reference to "the thief in the night" only the Second Coming does.

"The thief in the night" is illustrated in the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the faithful and unfaithful servants.

In the servants parable, Matt. 24:45-51, let's look at that illustration.

Matt. 24:48-51

"But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This is the Church, it concerns the rapture not the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is the Resurrection and the Rapture of remaining Saints.

AGREE - "Thief in the Night" for the wicked...............

 

[DavidTree]

The main purpose of the great tribulation is for Israel to be saved. This is the time of "Jacob's trouble" not the Churches trouble!

The Great Tribulation is upon the whole world - Saved and Unsaved - Jew & Gentile alike.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—
he who accuses them day and night before our God.
They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony.
And they did not love their lives
so as to shy away from death.
Therefore rejoice, O heavens,
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea;
with great wrath the devil has come down to you,
knowing he has only a short time.”
Rev ch12

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 2:18-19


Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the soil—how patient he is for the fall and spring rains. You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!
Brothers, as an example of patience in affliction, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. See how blessed we consider those who have persevered.
You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen the outcome from the Lord. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
James ch5

 

[Charlie24]

The Second Coming is the Resurrection and the Rapture of remaining Saints.

AGREE - "Thief in the Night" for the wicked...............

In the pre-trib view the church saints are taken out of the way on this earth at Rev. 4:1-2. John is the type of the rapture with the trumpet calling him up as Rev. is ready to unfold.

The resurrection of Rev. 20 is all the saints saved during the 70th week, a week of 7 years. Plus it includes the resurrection of the 144,000 Jews saved during this time.

The "first resurrection" of Rev. 20 is not speaking of a single resurrection but refers to all the saints of all time who have gone through the grave. This will include the church saints taken out before the tribulation. Together they are all who are in Christ and have gone through the grave. This is the resurrection of the just.

The second resurrection is of the unjust, they are all raised at the same time "after the 1000 years are finished" and will be present at the Great White Throne of Judgement.