Jesus, before becoming a man

Inquisitor · Aug 28, 2023

1) Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth of the incarnate Christ, Jesus had to die and that was predestined. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the core, the primary belief of Christianity.

2) Jesus being a man could not be omnipresent, flesh and blood is not omnipresent. God is in all places at once but Jesus was limited to a specific location and time, during His life. exactly the same as we are.

3) Jesus was not omniscient, it is incomprehensible for anyone to say that Jesus knew everything. Jesus had a human mind just like our mind. Some are openly in denial that the Word became flesh! Jesus relied on the Father and the Holy Spirit for everything. Jesus only ever exerted what He was given, including knowledge of past, present, and future events. Jesus only spoke what He was told to speak.

4) Jesus did not have the glory that God had, Jesus gave up His divine glory at birth.

5) Jesus was not omnipotent, Jesus was a man. Any power that Jesus expressed over creation was through the power of the Holy Spirit. We have no power over anything in creation except what the Holy Spirit grants us. This is identical to the power that Jesus possessed. The Word became flesh!

To hold to the idea that Jesus was FULLY God incarnate is problematic to say the least.

Jesus did empty Himself completely at birth.

Truthnightmare · Aug 28, 2023

Inquisitor said:

1) Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth of the incarnate Christ, Jesus had to die and that was predestined. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the core, the primary belief of Christianity.

2) Jesus being a man could not be omnipresent, flesh and blood is not omnipresent. God is in all places at once but Jesus was limited to a specific location and time, during His life. exactly the same as we are.

3) Jesus was not omniscient, it is incomprehensible for anyone to say that Jesus knew everything. Jesus had a human mind just like our mind. Some are openly in denial that the Word became flesh! Jesus relied on the Father and the Holy Spirit for everything. Jesus only ever exerted what He was given, including knowledge of past, present, and future events. Jesus only spoke what He was told to speak.

4) Jesus did not have the glory that God had, Jesus gave up His divine glory at birth.

5) Jesus was not omnipotent, Jesus was a man. Any power that Jesus expressed over creation was through the power of the Holy Spirit. We have no power over anything in creation except what the Holy Spirit grants us. This is identical to the power that Jesus possessed. The Word became flesh!

To hold to the idea that Jesus was FULLY God incarnate is problematic to say the least.

Jesus did empty Himself completely at birth.

I agree… Part of the emotional variables is that when we say Jesus was limited, people come to the defense of Christ, and I believe this is mostly out of love for the Lord. Notwithstanding; it does not make them right, no more than Peter cutting off the ear of the soldier. Jesus was limited because he had to be.

bluto · Aug 28, 2023

SpeakTruth101 said:

That does not mean that they were the "US" that helped God in creating man or anything else for that matter. When Job 38:7 says, "And all the sons of God shouted for joy" how does that translate into them helping with the creation of man? Did you consider the possibility they were "shouting" for joy for another reason? Also, how do you explain Job 1:6? "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." Do you think that Satan had a hand in helping God create man in His image" As a side note have you read Michael S. Heiser's take on Job 38?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

SpeakTruth101 · Aug 28, 2023

bluto said:

I never said that, simply that "us" could mean beings that are not YHWH or Yahshua, and other beings were there but every single detail is not written, and honetly it really does interest me, because Yahshua seems to show up multiple times in the OT, but I don't take a definitive stance because many things are hinted at, but not clearly written, none the less interesting. and Job 1:6, it not certian if satan was or was not there and in either case I dont know every detail, but this is something interesting, not totally related but interesting.

Isaiah 14:12-16, “How you have fallen from heaven, child of the light! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart; I will ascend above the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of YHWH. I will sit in the highest place on the holy mountain ofthe congregation. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High. Yet you will be brought down to Sheol; the grave, to the sides ofthe pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and they will talk about you, saying; Is this the one; the adversary, who shook the earth, and made kingdoms tremble?”

Ezekiyl 28:13-19, “You were in Ĕḏen, the garden of the Most High. Every precious stone was your covering: the ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, shoham, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald and gold. The workmanship of your settings and mountings was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed keruḇ that covered. And I placed you, you were on the set-apart mountain of Yah. You walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. By the greatness of your trade you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. So I thrust you from the mountain of Yah, and I destroyed you, O covering keruḇ, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your loveliness, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendour. I threw you to the earth, I laid you before sovereigns, to look at you. You profaned your set-apart places by your many crookednesses, by the unrighteousness of your trading. Therefore I brought forth fire from your midst. It has devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth before the eyes of all who see you. All who knew you among the peoples were astonished at you. Waste you shall be, and cease to be, forever.”

NOt saying satan was there during creation, but you asked me and this is one of the only passages about who satan was before.

Goldwing · Aug 28, 2023

bluto said:

Bluto, In response let me first say I’m in total agreement with you that the title, Angel of the Lord,” is the title given to Jesus preincarnat. You didn’t have to make that case again.

However, the Bible clear states the following facts; that it will be Michael’s voice that raises the dead, (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and (John 5:25-29) states it will be the voice of the, “Son of God,” that raises the dead, and since God only can call forth life, these fact prove that Micheal is a God/Deity.

Your position as I understand it, is that Micheal is not a deity capable of calling forth life. If I’m understanding you correctly then your understanding puts the two texts above in a state of conflict, of which you agreed with me, that there are no contradictions in the Bible.

Since you are not yet convinced in the least that Michael is God, I’ll post the other seven points which bring in other texts to support such a claim.

1 of 1
According to John 1 and other Bible passages, Jesus is a God who lived with the Father before the world was created. Most Christians have no problem with the idea that a member of deity was made into the likeness of a human form and we call Him, “Jesus.” “He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!” (Philippians 2:7-8) Prior to His arrival on Earth, the Bible teaches that Jesus lived in the form or likeness of an angel. To some people, the idea that Jesus is the Michael the Archangel seems utterly impossible. Consider the irony: It is acceptable to many people that Jesus lived as an unremarkable man when on Earth (Isaiah 53:2) but somehow it is blasphemy that he lived as the archangel before coming to Earth! Somehow, the form of a man is a higher position that the form of an angel. Some people are worried that if Jesus lived in the form of an angel, this would make him a created being, less than deity — but living in the form of man does not incur the same limitations. Worse, some religious groups do not accept that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The Bible teaches that Jesus is “the Word,” He speaks for the Father and 99% of the references in the Old Testament pertain to Jesus precisely because one God is speaking for another God. There is ample proof in the Bible that the person known as “Michael, the Archangel” can be identified as Jesus without detracting anything from His divinity. Let’s examine this interesting puzzle point by point.

POINT ONE: When Jesus was born in human flesh through the virgin, Mary, the prophetic utterances of the Holy Spirit gave Him many appropriate names. A few of these are:

Immanuel (God is with us) – Matthew 1:23

Jesus (Savior) – Matthew 1:21

Lamb of God – John 1:29

Christ (Messiah, anointed One or King) – John 1:41

The Bible also reveals that the devil’s name was “Lucifer” before he rebelled against God. After being thrown out of Heaven, Lucifer acquired a new name called “Satan.” (Isaiah 14:12 and Revelation 12:9) Since we know Jesus existed throughout the ages of eternity long before coming as a babe to Bethlehem, it is logical to assume that He, too, had some Heavenly name before His earthly experience.

POINT TWO: In Biblical times, names were regarded as profoundly important. Nearly every name had a meaning. A few examples will illustrate this point:

El (these letters in a name pertained to God)

Elijah (my God is Jehovah)

Daniel (judgment of God)

Gabriel (man of God)

Michael (one who is like God)

Unless our intention is to be blasphemous, we must recognize that no one is like God – except God Himself. The Bible is clear that it was Lucifer’s pride which prompted him to say, “I will be like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:13-14) Who was he referring to? By now I am sure that the devil understands that no created being – even a dazzling angel like Lucifer – can ever be equal to his Creator.

POINT THREE: The prefix “arch” comes from a Greek word meaning “ruler” or one who rules over, such as in the word “monarch.” We know that our Heavenly Father, as God, rules and reigns over all faithful believers without being a human Himself. By the same token, Jesus can assume the position of ruler over all the angels without being an angel (created being) Himself.

So, by saying that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, the Bible is simply calling Him the Supreme Commander of the angelic host, just as our United States President is called the Commander-in-Chief of all the armed forces. This does not mean that the President is a soldier, wearing a uniform. He is above every foot soldier, sailor, airman or marine. He outranks them and rules them, according to the United States Constitution.

To demonstrate this further, consider Genesis 1:28. Here we read that in the beginning God gave man “dominion over” all creatures of the animal kingdom, whether fish, fowl, or animal. “Dominion” means lordship or authority to rule. Thus God placed man in charge of His creation, dominating the animals as a lord rules his subjects. If man can rule the animal kingdom without being an animal himself, no one should insist that Christ cannot be the archangel without being a created angel Himself. Therefore, it should not surprise us that according to the Bible, Jesus Christ has the honor of being “Commander-in-Chief” and has “dominion” over all the angelic forces of Heaven. Serving in this capacity does not detract from His deity or make Him in any way a created being.

Goldwing · Aug 28, 2023

2 of 2
POINT FOUR: The Old Testament contains a fascinating story of a human encounter with the heavenly Commander-in-Chief. “Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, ‘Are you for us or for our enemies?‘ ‘Neither,’ he replied, ‘but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.’ Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, ‘What message does my Lord have for his servant?’ The commander of the Lord’s army replied, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.” (Joshua 5:13-15)

On this occasion, Joshua is being visited by the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-incarnate form. Throughout the Old Testament, the Bible mentions the Lord appearing to individuals, such as Abraham (Genesis 18:1-33) and Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30). On this particular occasion with Joshua, verse 13 says that Joshua looked up and saw a “man standing in front of him with a drawn sword.” When Joshua asks who he is, Joshua is told that he is the “Commander of the Lord’s army.” The Living Bible says “I am Commander-in-Chief of the Lord’s army.” This is just another way of saying He is the “Arch”angel, or ruler of the angel hosts. Even though He was identified as the Archangel, we know He was no mere angel for two reasons.

First, Joshua fell down and worshiped him, and the Being did not stop him from doing so. If Joshua had been worshiping an angel, he would have been immediately reprimanded. In both Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8 and 9, John was told to stop worshiping the angel and told, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!”

Secondly, this divine Being not only accepts worship from Joshua, but also tells him to take off his shoes, for the place he was standing was holy. Moses received the same command when He met the Lord at the burning bush. (Exodus 3:1-6) It become clear that the leader of the Heavenly hosts is no mere angel, but our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself.

POINT FIVE: There are other Scriptures that mention the name of Michael, revealing that He is a very special Person. These texts suggest that He must be, in fact, a heavenly Being of royal lineage. For instance, God sent the angel, Gabriel, to give a special message to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 8:16 and 9:21). This angel messenger told Daniel that “Michael” is “the great prince who protects your people.” A prince is the son of a king, of course, and Jesus is the Son of God, the King of Heaven. Gabriel, in the very same book calls the Messiah, “the Prince.” (Daniel 9:25).

Now please note what we’ve learned from the pen of the same inspired writer:

Messiah = the Prince

Michael = the great prince
If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ.

POINT SIX: God’s Word gives inspired insight into Lucifer’s terrible rebellion against the government of God: “And there was war in heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

Fortunately, this verse identifies “the dragon” as “that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan.” This leaves no question about the adversary’s identity. It is interesting to note that in each of the four instances where the name Michael is used in Scripture, there is a conflict between Michael and Satan going on – age-old adversaries since the beginning of time.

POINT SEVEN: The only Bible verse frequently quoted by those who deny that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, is Jude 1:9, which says, “But even the archangel Michael, when He was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Some people believe this verse proves Jesus and Michael are not the same entity because Michael, in this text, rebukes the devil Himself, by saying, “The Lord rebuke you!” People reason that the Archangel cannot be the Lord for He is calling someone else, “the Lord.” It is always important to let the Bible be its own interpreter. Jude 1:9 becomes much clearer when compared with Zechariah 3:2, where Jesus again is confronting Satan. Zechariah 3:2 says: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’ ” This verse is a perfect parallel to Jude 1:9 – almost a carbon copy – except the names are changed. In one text He is called Michael and in the other He is called the Lord. In both cases, one could argue that Michael/Lord was calling on His Heavenly Father to rebuke the devil.

On both occasions, Christ knew it was pointless to argue with Lucifer’s closed mind – Lucifer had made his mind up long ago. Jesus knew that a day is coming, when as Lord and Judge of all the universe, He will rebuke Satan with finality, condemning him to the lake of fire.

Another possible interpretation of these two texts is to realize that Christ was simply speaking of Himself when He said, “The Lord rebuke you,” meaning, “I rebuke you.” Jesus often referred to Himself in the third person, saying things like: “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the Earth?” (Luke 18:8) Should we conclude that Jesus is not the Son of God simply because in John 3:16 He referred to Himself in the third person (“Whosoever believeth in Him”) rather than saying “in me?”

In reference to Moses’ death, the Bible states that the Lord, Himself, buried His faithful servant, but did not reveal to men where Moses’ grave was. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6) Jude reveals that Moses’ dead body was the subject of dispute between Christ and Satan. When the Prince of Life approached the lonely grave, Satan was alarmed. Satan claimed all who were in the grave as his captives and felt threatened by this invasion into “his territory.” The accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) boasted that even Moses, who had been a faithful servant of God, had sinned and become his prisoner. Christ refused to argue with Satan, but then and there, performed His work of breaking the devil’s power and bringing the dead to life. The New Testament indicates that Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, so it is safe to conclude that the Lord triumphed in the contest with the devil and raised Moses from his grave.

How do we know it was Christ, Himself, and not a mere angel that contended with Satan over the resurrection of Moses’ body? Angels, like ourselves, are created beings and have no power to create life. Satan and his angel followers are powerful, supernatural beings, but they are “fallen” and they are created beings. They may make it look like dead people are talking to mediums (i.e., séances), but they cannot create life. Although God empowered his faithful servants to resuscitate a dead person on a few occasions, those miracles were not resurrections to a glorious, immortal life. Miracles though they were, those people who were raised, later died again. They were not taken “bodily” to Heaven, as Moses and Elijah were. Only Christ, the Life-giver, can raise a dead person to eternal life. He is our only hope – not some angel. Keeping this all in mind, it is safe to conclude that the One who contended with Satan over Moses’ body was a Heavenly Being far more powerful than any angel.

Grace911 · Aug 28, 2023

SpeakTruth101 said:

I was watching a PBS program earlier on DNA testing. When the House of Israel was taken by captivity by Assyria, they eventually migrated to all parts of the world. Many lost their Israeli/Hebrew/tribe identity and lost the name of YHWH. יהוה

Here in the end times, many Gentiles are waking up to their identity and accepting the New Covenant of Yeshua's death, burial and resurrection. I've shared this many times here in CC, but I believe it is worthy to share again.

Starting with the Mt. Sinai covenant marriage on Shavuot 1379 BC, all of Israel and the strangers and aliens accepted the marriage proposal before even knowning what was in the contract/covenant.

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Chapter 20 of Exodus the Ten Words/commandments were given.

After King Saul, King David and King Solomon, the 12 tribes split into two Kingdoms/houses = House of Israel and House of Judah.

House of Israel was taken into captivity around 723 BC after a three year seige. I'm focusing on House of Israel, because YHWH DIVORCED THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL/ten tribes.

The prophet Jeremiah was told by the LORD that His desire was to have His divorced wife/house of israel back. But there was a major problem. The LORD/YHWH cannot take her back according to His own Law regarding Divorce and Remarriage.

Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

YHWH cannot break His own law, but from the beginning of mankind, or even before that, our all Knowing God had a plan to remarry his divorced harlot.

The apostle Paul was given the key to the mystery of how YHWH would accomplish this.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Looking at everything Yeshua/Jesus said is YHWH speaking through this Son of Man.

Look how many times stories and parables included the NUMBER TWELVE.

Reading from the prophet Ezekiel, we see YHWH's plan.

Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (I believe this is 7th millenium when this happens)

37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

37:28 And the nations (goy/Gentiles) shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

And now let us hear the words of Yeshua/Jesus.

Matthew 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(John 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(John 3:20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
(John 3:21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

SpeakTruth101 · Aug 28, 2023

Grace911 said:

I was watching a PBS program earlier on DNA testing. When the House of Israel was taken by captivity by Assyria, they eventually migrated to all parts of the world. Many lost their Israeli/Hebrew/tribe identity and lost the name of YHWH. יהוה

Here in the end times, many Gentiles are waking up to their identity and accepting the New Covenant of Yeshua's death, burial and resurrection. I've shared this many times here in CC, but I believe it is worthy to share again.

Starting with the Mt. Sinai covenant marriage on Shavuot 1379 BC, all of Israel and the strangers and aliens accepted the marriage proposal before even knowning what was in the contract/covenant.

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Chapter 20 of Exodus the Ten Words/commandments were given.

After King Saul, King David and King Solomon, the 12 tribes split into two Kingdoms/houses = House of Israel and House of Judah.

House of Israel was taken into captivity around 723 BC after a three year seige. I'm focusing on House of Israel, because YHWH DIVORCED THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL/ten tribes.

The prophet Jeremiah was told by the LORD that His desire was to have His divorced wife/house of israel back. But there was a major problem. The LORD/YHWH cannot take her back according to His own Law regarding Divorce and Remarriage.

Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

YHWH cannot break His own law, but from the beginning of mankind, or even before that, our all Knowing God had a plan to remarry his divorced harlot.

The apostle Paul was given the key to the mystery of how YHWH would accomplish this.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Looking at everything Yeshua/Jesus said is YHWH speaking through this Son of Man.

Look how many times stories and parables included the NUMBER TWELVE.

Reading from the prophet Ezekiel, we see YHWH's plan.

Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (I believe this is 7th millenium when this happens)

37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

37:28 And the nations (goy/Gentiles) shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

And now let us hear the words of Yeshua/Jesus.

Matthew 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(John 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(John 3:20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
(John 3:21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Wonderful post, I actually have studied this but it something I just read it twice...I have not considered this in a while, im going to copy it to a note pad for further study, thank you for this and I hope others read it also. Always remember the Deut 18:18-19 command and let no one get in the way. Be steadfast and focused, for YHWH strengthens.

Hosea 1:8-9, 8 And she weaned Lo-Ruḥamah, and conceived and bore a son, 9 then He said, “Call his name Lo-Ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not for you.

Hosea 2:16, 16 “And it shall be, in that day,” declares יהוה, “that you call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Ba‛al.’"

Hosea 2:23, 23 “And I shall sow her for Myself in the earth, and I shall have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion. And I shall say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people,’ while they say, ‘My Elohim!’ ”"

Hosea 3:4-5, 4 For many days the children of Yisra’ĕl are to remain without sovereign and without prince, and without slaughtering, and without pillar, and without shoulder garment or house idols. 5 Afterward the children of Yisra’ĕl shall return, and seek יהוה their Elohim, and Dawiḏ their sovereign, and fear יהוה and His goodness, in the latter days.

Thank you alwys nice to dive in the Word

John 17:17, “Set them apart in Your truth – Your Word is truth.”

Psalms 117:1-2, " 1 Praise יהוה, all you nations! Extol Him, all you peoples! 2 For His loving-commitment is mighty over us, And the truth of יהוה is everlasting. Praise Yah!

Truthnightmare · Aug 28, 2023

SpeakTruth101 said:

From a older study, regarding..

The Southern Kingdom:
Consisted of two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and were called Judah with their capital in Jerusalem.

Judah punished:
Because of idolatry, God also punished Judah, and the Two Tribe Southern Kingdom Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. In 477 B.C.* Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple of God (the same location of the Temple Mount in modern Israel). At this time there are still no Jews, there is only the Kingdom of Judah. ‘Jew’ is a term that we will explain later, but for now understand that it is a religious designation and not a national identifier. In other words, contrary to popular misconception, you are not born a Jew but become one by that particular brand of religion (Judaism). More on that later. [ *all dating as per Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger]

The Northern Kingdom:
Consisting of the other Ten Tribes were called Israel and their capital was at Samaria.

Israel punished:
Because of idolatry, God punished Israel, and The Ten Tribe Israel nation was taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Israel became a province of Assyria in 611 B.C.* and the people Israel dropped out of the Biblical narrative and profane history as well for the most part. They became not a people (lo-ammi).

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

It is these Jews that were in control of the Temple during Christ’s time, it is them that Christ so often chastised and rebuked, it is them that Jesus told:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of [progeny; Greek word #1537 ek (out of)] your father the devil [satan - the serpent in the Garden of Eden], and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning [Cain - Kenites], and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it [satan/serpent uttered first lie (Gen 3:4)]. (KJV)

And it is them that killed the Son of God Jesus Christ by forcing the hand of pagan Rome. So today, when someone calls themselves a Jew they most likely aren’t, they are just ignorant to the preceding events. Not all of Israel or Judah are Jews and none of the Jews are Israel or Judah. It is these Jews that are in large number in modern day Israel (though there are also some true Judah and Israel there as well - they should be properly called Hebrews not Jews - but they don’t know this, it has been kept from them, they don’t know who they are, they have been betrayed by their parents ... parents ... parents). But all can be saved through Christ Jesus!

So in a perversion of truth, these Jews call themselves the chosen of God but in fact are the offspring of Judah that intermarried with the heathen peoples and formed their own perverted religion that disobeys God at almost every turn. The Jewish Anti Defamation League (among others) has suppressed this type of information and labels those who teach it as "anti-Semitic" or "racist" to discredit them, hide the truth, and proliferate the apostasy away from God (though some racists take this teaching and equally in ignorance use it in hate, we are not among that group). But the term "anti-Semetic" is itself a misnomer, for those called "Jews" have very little if any Semitic blood in their veins and they have apostate into heathen religion and forsook God. They have more blood of Cain (Kenites) and the Edomites (Esua - Khazer Jews of Russia) in their veins than blood of Israel or true Judah for that matter. Call it the fox in the hen house if you will. But NOT ALL HEBREW PEOPLE ARE JEWS, in fact, very very very few Hebrew peoples became Jews, and true Israel and true Judah know not who they are.

Ok, so what happened to Israel, the Ten Tribe Northern Kingdom? Did they die off? God forbid, for had they, then God’s Word would have failed, for God promised Abraham that his seed should be as the sand of the sea for multitude:

Gen 32:9-12
9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the LORD which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee................(Gen 32:12) And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (KJV)

Well, there are only 13 million Jews on the Planet of over 6 billion people (less that one percent) so where is the multitude as the sand of the sea? Did God make a mistake, or lie to Abraham in the Covenant? Of course not!!! This is not possible, God cannot lie {Titus 1:2}! Below we shall show where Israel is today, and we will also clarify who Judah is and the Kenites and the Gentiles.

In the Bible, who Are The People Of The House Of Israel,
the House Of Judah, The Jews, And The Kenites?
The difference between the peoples of Israel, Judah, the Jews,
and the Kenites (the sons of Cain, the first murderer)

First of all, when studying Biblical history and prophecy, you mustn't confuse the House of Israel with the House of Judah. When you see the 'House of Israel' written of in the scriptures, it refers to the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel (now referred to as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel). But when you see the 'House of Judah' spoken of, it refers to the Southern Kingdom consisting of peoples of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Originally, when the Houses were still joined together, there were twelve Tribes. These Twelve Tribes became split into two Houses, one called the Northern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Samaria, and the other called the Southern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Jerusalem. To this very day they are split, with the Ten Northern tribes having lost all knowledge of their identity, as was prophesied of to happen in Scripture:

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (KJV)

But what ever became of Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel)? After a three years siege and the final fall of Samaria with it's becoming of an Assyrian Province in 611 B.C. (722 B.C. by profane history), Israel ceased to be and dropped out of history.

But Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes) were never lost to God, they migrated North over the Caucasus Mountains (where we get our word 'Caucasian' from) and settled Europe, eventually populating Scotland, Ireland, Britain, Iceland, and ultimately crossing westward over the seas and established the Americas.

Yes we are the descendants of the lost Northern Ten Tribes of Israel. We are the chosen people of God. Look around the world, who is the last light of hope in the world? That does not mean that we are Jewish, for as you see by the division of the original 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel; Judah is only one of those twelve tribes, and Jews are only a small portion of them who mixed with the heathen both physically and religiously. As of Jan 2, 2000, there are only 13 million Jews on the planet (as per www.adherents.com), that is less than 1% of the total global population which is 6,099,686,302 (6 billion plus) as of 4:04 EDT Oct 1, 2000 per Popclock™. But in God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob He promised:

Magenta · Aug 28, 2023

Goldwing said:

JWs add that word... the "a" before God. It is not in the original texts... or other Bible translations.

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Legacy Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Literal Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Majority Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

New Revised Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

SpeakTruth101 · Aug 28, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

From a older study, regarding..

The Southern Kingdom:
Consisted of two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and were called Judah with their capital in Jerusalem.

Judah punished:
Because of idolatry, God also punished Judah, and the Two Tribe Southern Kingdom Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. In 477 B.C.* Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple of God (the same location of the Temple Mount in modern Israel). At this time there are still no Jews, there is only the Kingdom of Judah. ‘Jew’ is a term that we will explain later, but for now understand that it is a religious designation and not a national identifier. In other words, contrary to popular misconception, you are not born a Jew but become one by that particular brand of religion (Judaism). More on that later. [ *all dating as per Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger]

The Northern Kingdom:
Consisting of the other Ten Tribes were called Israel and their capital was at Samaria.

Israel punished:
Because of idolatry, God punished Israel, and The Ten Tribe Israel nation was taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Israel became a province of Assyria in 611 B.C.* and the people Israel dropped out of the Biblical narrative and profane history as well for the most part. They became not a people (lo-ammi).

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

It is these Jews that were in control of the Temple during Christ’s time, it is them that Christ so often chastised and rebuked, it is them that Jesus told:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of [progeny; Greek word #1537 ek (out of)] your father the devil [satan - the serpent in the Garden of Eden], and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning [Cain - Kenites], and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it [satan/serpent uttered first lie (Gen 3:4)]. (KJV)

And it is them that killed the Son of God Jesus Christ by forcing the hand of pagan Rome. So today, when someone calls themselves a Jew they most likely aren’t, they are just ignorant to the preceding events. Not all of Israel or Judah are Jews and none of the Jews are Israel or Judah. It is these Jews that are in large number in modern day Israel (though there are also some true Judah and Israel there as well - they should be properly called Hebrews not Jews - but they don’t know this, it has been kept from them, they don’t know who they are, they have been betrayed by their parents ... parents ... parents). But all can be saved through Christ Jesus!

So in a perversion of truth, these Jews call themselves the chosen of God but in fact are the offspring of Judah that intermarried with the heathen peoples and formed their own perverted religion that disobeys God at almost every turn. The Jewish Anti Defamation League (among others) has suppressed this type of information and labels those who teach it as "anti-Semitic" or "racist" to discredit them, hide the truth, and proliferate the apostasy away from God (though some racists take this teaching and equally in ignorance use it in hate, we are not among that group). But the term "anti-Semetic" is itself a misnomer, for those called "Jews" have very little if any Semitic blood in their veins and they have apostate into heathen religion and forsook God. They have more blood of Cain (Kenites) and the Edomites (Esua - Khazer Jews of Russia) in their veins than blood of Israel or true Judah for that matter. Call it the fox in the hen house if you will. But NOT ALL HEBREW PEOPLE ARE JEWS, in fact, very very very few Hebrew peoples became Jews, and true Israel and true Judah know not who they are.

Ok, so what happened to Israel, the Ten Tribe Northern Kingdom? Did they die off? God forbid, for had they, then God’s Word would have failed, for God promised Abraham that his seed should be as the sand of the sea for multitude:

Gen 32:9-12
9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the LORD which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee................(Gen 32:12) And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (KJV)

Well, there are only 13 million Jews on the Planet of over 6 billion people (less that one percent) so where is the multitude as the sand of the sea? Did God make a mistake, or lie to Abraham in the Covenant? Of course not!!! This is not possible, God cannot lie {Titus 1:2}! Below we shall show where Israel is today, and we will also clarify who Judah is and the Kenites and the Gentiles.

In the Bible, who Are The People Of The House Of Israel,
the House Of Judah, The Jews, And The Kenites?
The difference between the peoples of Israel, Judah, the Jews,
and the Kenites (the sons of Cain, the first murderer)

First of all, when studying Biblical history and prophecy, you mustn't confuse the House of Israel with the House of Judah. When you see the 'House of Israel' written of in the scriptures, it refers to the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel (now referred to as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel). But when you see the 'House of Judah' spoken of, it refers to the Southern Kingdom consisting of peoples of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Originally, when the Houses were still joined together, there were twelve Tribes. These Twelve Tribes became split into two Houses, one called the Northern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Samaria, and the other called the Southern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Jerusalem. To this very day they are split, with the Ten Northern tribes having lost all knowledge of their identity, as was prophesied of to happen in Scripture:

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (KJV)

But what ever became of Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel)? After a three years siege and the final fall of Samaria with it's becoming of an Assyrian Province in 611 B.C. (722 B.C. by profane history), Israel ceased to be and dropped out of history.

But Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes) were never lost to God, they migrated North over the Caucasus Mountains (where we get our word 'Caucasian' from) and settled Europe, eventually populating Scotland, Ireland, Britain, Iceland, and ultimately crossing westward over the seas and established the Americas.

Yes we are the descendants of the lost Northern Ten Tribes of Israel. We are the chosen people of God. Look around the world, who is the last light of hope in the world? That does not mean that we are Jewish, for as you see by the division of the original 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel; Judah is only one of those twelve tribes, and Jews are only a small portion of them who mixed with the heathen both physically and religiously. As of Jan 2, 2000, there are only 13 million Jews on the planet (as per www.adherents.com), that is less than 1% of the total global population which is 6,099,686,302 (6 billion plus) as of 4:04 EDT Oct 1, 2000 per Popclock™. But in God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob He promised:

Some one did their homework. Yeah when working out the Earth's and man's time line I found info on a 163-166 to 239-240 year period missing from the calendar. Can't say what is correct but I know all of YHWH;s prophecies come true continually, 100% accurate. And yes where are the other 10 tribes, went north as you said, yet Israel will not accept it and there is a reason why B.Specter gave that interview about bringing in 3rd world pops to destroy all the 10 tribes nations. Well I can say be strong, keep healthy mind, body and spirit, remember YHWH strengthens and this is just a test... in the days especially need focus, for the world is in a chaotic state, Im going to copy this also to a note pad anf check out that study bible you mentioned, I used to have a collection of hundreds of books and tons of microfilm, but I know physical possessions are not that important and people who will or wont accept truth will not be swayed no matter how much evidence they are shown. Be strong and Thank you.

Exodus 15:2-3, “Yah is my strength and song, and He has become my deliverance. He is my Strength, and I praise Him – Mighty One of my father, and I exalt Him. יהוה is a man of battle, יהוה is His Name."

Psalm 111:10, "The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, All those doing them have a good understanding. His praise is standing forever."

Bob-Carabbio · Aug 28, 2023

You said this: "There was no such thing as "Jesus" before His conception miraculously in Mary." That's not quite true. Jesus appeared in the Old Testament numerous times but we did not know that His name was Jesus until He was born.

In Him'
bluto[/QUOTE]

Ah- the good 'ol "Theophanie" theory. I was propagandized with that in Baptist Training Union 60 years ago. Haven't heard it for YEARS now. As I recall, Melchizedek was one, and the fellow that Jacob wrestled was another. there were others, but memory fails me.

Mem · Aug 29, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

sent in fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning Him. If I'm being nitpicky over exact words, it is in the sense of using the exact key that would fit the lock to the Door, which is Jesus in regard to the structure of the House which, without Him, no one can enter.

Truthnightmare said:

I would characterize Him rather as the Oxygen in the water, but yes, you cannot take a bath in oxygen, nor can you take a bath in hydrogen.

Truthnightmare said:

Unless He and the Father are indeed individuals and the decision of 'that day' is left for the Father to declare, according to His, the Father's, discretion. That is, perhaps "until I have made your enemies your footstool" is the only clue any other individual, divine or common, has been made privy to.

Truthnightmare said:

What tells us He knows? I can only think of His declaration, "I come soon," but 'soon' is a subjective term that only indicates He knows that He will come, but not necessarily the time (so we'd have to go on only an assumption that he "wasn't going to tell us anyway.")

Truthnightmare said:

He tasted death for every man, as the Lamb of God. Human sacrifice goes against Hebraic law, so yes, His sacrifice accepted as is does render Him lower than man, lower than angel, as an equivalent to a sacrificial beast of the field "for every man."

Truthnightmare said:

Is not 'ministering angel' another term for servant? If power and might is a determining factor in rulership, then elephants and horses might be in a higher position than man.

Truthnightmare said:

The angels that fell 'left their estate' as servants of God in service of man. Yet another nitpicky word rearrangement I would make is to totally omit the statement, "because he is death,' recalling Who the angel of death is in Exodus. If the devil has the power of death, it is in the power to form the lie, and thereby stealing the truth and the life from those that would believe it.

Truthnightmare said:

I'm of the opinion that death has its purpose, and that it is the nature of evil to destroy itself. Death was conquered by Hope, Faith, and Love. "and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death (Hebrews 2:15)."

"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father (Romans 8:15)!"

Because of Jesus' display of Father's love for Him, and for us through Him, we no longer have to fear death.

Truthnightmare said:

Indeed! Nice to meet you, and trust
God bless you and keep you!

Webers.Home · Aug 29, 2023

evyaniy said:

Inquisitor said:

1) Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth of the incarnate Christ, Jesus had to die and that was predestined. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the core, the primary belief of Christianity.

2) Jesus being a man could not be omnipresent, flesh and blood is not omnipresent. God is in all places at once but Jesus was limited to a specific location and time, during His life. exactly the same as we are.

3) Jesus was not omniscient, it is incomprehensible for anyone to say that Jesus knew everything. Jesus had a human mind just like our mind. Some are openly in denial that the Word became flesh! Jesus relied on the Father and the Holy Spirit for everything. Jesus only ever exerted what He was given, including knowledge of past, present, and future events. Jesus only spoke what He was told to speak.

4) Jesus did not have the glory that God had, Jesus gave up His divine glory at birth.

5) Jesus was not omnipotent, Jesus was a man. Any power that Jesus expressed over creation was through the power of the Holy Spirit. We have no power over anything in creation except what the Holy Spirit grants us. This is identical to the power that Jesus possessed. The Word became flesh!

To hold to the idea that Jesus was FULLY God incarnate is problematic to say the least.

Jesus did empty Himself completely at birth.

Webers.Home · Aug 29, 2023

evyaniy said:

When speaking of Jesus' exploits and/or limitations, it's always best, in order
to avoid misunderstandings, to ensure your audience is aware that Jesus is
the Word's alter ego; otherwise folks might get the impression that a human
existed before any humans were created.

FAQ: If Jesus didn't exist till Luke 1:26-35, then how could he honestly say:
before Abraham was, I am?

REPLY: The Word per John 1:1-3 became binary when his flesh per John
1:14 was conceived in Mary's womb; thus the Word is quite unique because
he can speak for himself as a material being, and he can speak for himself
as an eternal being, viz: the Word is existing as a divine spirit being and as a
Jewish human being simultaneously.

BTW: Rachel wasn't buried in Bethlehem rather; on the way to Bethlehem.
(Gen 35:19)
_

bluto · Aug 29, 2023

Goldwing said:

I'm pretty sure that it is common knowledge that Christians understand that angels are created beings. Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones had this to say about created angels in his book "God the Father, God the Son" (published in 1996). I quote from Chapter 10 which discusses the doctrine of God's good angels:

Angels, while they are spiritual beings, are nevertheless created beings. They have not existed from eternity....Paul , in Colossians 1:16 very definitely teaches that they were created BY THE SON. "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created by him, and for Him." Colossians 1:16 is backed up by John 1:3.

Now let us go to Hebrews 1 to discover the biblical basis for believing that Jesus "IS NOT" Michael the arc angel, a created spirit creature. Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and angels. You can read it for yourself. Also, angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshipped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel for that matter. The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is the "One and only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16. In fact, at Hebrews 1:8 God the Father clearly identifies His only begotten Son as God. "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His Kingdom." Angels worship Jesus at Hebrews 1:7.

Another thing of note is from Daniel 10. Please read the whole chapter and take not of vs13, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, "Michael, ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia." For a more detailed explanation on this topic you can find it here, ("Keil & Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary Chapter 10) Daniel 10 - Keil & Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org Take special note of verses 5-7.

Within your points, for example point 1 where Jesus is named "God with us," I didn't see, "Michael with us?" Point 2, Michael "one who is like God". Moses was like God to Pharaoh at Exodus 7:1, Does that mean Moses is God? At point 4, it says "angel of the Lord," not "Michael of the Lord." These are just quick observations. I am also very well informed of all the visits that the angel of the Lord made to the Old Testament saints. Lastly, the angel of the Lord NEVER appeared as the angel of the Lord in the New Testament, although he is mentioned in the New Testament. You can ask me anything you want.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Goldwing · Aug 30, 2023

bluto said:

Bluto, thanks again for your response. That angels are created beings and should not be worshiped, is well understood and made crystal clear by those of us who understand that Michael is Jesus preincarnate. Why are you making this point, we are in agreement as my earlier posts prove?

You state in your third paragraph, “Also, angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship.” Indeed! It is also true, “That Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.” When The Angel of the Lord/Micheal of the Old Testament at the appointed time took on the form of man, He was still God, the Son of God, not created, to live among His created, to reveal in the best way possible the invisible Father and Holy Spirit, and as such is worthy of our worship, which all of us christians agree.

Then why is it so difficult for you and those of like mind, to except that The Angel of the Lord/Micheal prior to the creation of man, also took on the form of an angel for the same reason He did for mankind, without giving up His divinity, therefore worthy of their worship????

We also know that, “Jesus came to His own, (in human form), and His own knew Him not.” It is quite conceivable this same issue involving, The Angel of the Lord/Michael (in angelic form) is why Lucifer and one third of the Angels were cast out of Heaven, because they refused to worship the Angel of the Lord/Michael since He appeared to be an angel, and not God. In both of these instances, The Angel of the Lord/Micheal humbled Himself beyond the reasoning of much of His creation. I say much because, one third of the angels and most of mankind do not understand.,that Micheal is Jesus preincarnate.

Believing in such in no way takes away the deity of Christ, it only magnifies His love for His creation.

Truthnightmare · Aug 30, 2023

Webers.Home said:

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (KJV)

What was it about Jesus saying "I Am" that so caused the Jews to want to kill Him? "I AM" is the sacred name, Jesus was calling Himself God! Observe God's sacred name that he Himself spoke to Moses:

Exod 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (KJV)

Jesus was/is God and He stated so. While it is somewhat obscured in our English translations, the Jews knew full well that Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh (for Jesus spoke to everyone in their native tongue, therefore when Jesus told them in Hebrew that He was the "I AM," what He was saying was 'EHaYEH , or the title fully stated 'EhaYEH aSHER 'EYaYEH which means: I AM THAT I AM, or I will be what I want to be –— I exist (by self), self existent, God Almighty, created by none, but simply became –— was –— is. To this day, Jews will not pronounce 'EHaYEH , for they reason that for a Hebrew in the Hebrew tongue, to say the name 'EHaYEH, is itself calling oneself God.

It is kind of like if our name in English for God was something like "I Am God," then for us to pronounce His name would be to call oneself God (or so the Jews suppose, anyway). But the Lord said "..this [I AM THAT I AM] is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex 3:15), so why wouldn't they call Him that? Jews today call God "Hashem" (meaning: "The Name"),
Peace

CS1 · Aug 30, 2023

Goldwing said:

Based on your knowledge of the bible, what do you know about Jesus before He became a man and was given the name Jesus?

Was He inactive or proactive in revealing the Godhead to God's creation?

Please explain in some detail, not looking for a yes or no response here. The reason for the question is to expand our knowledge and appreciation of the Godhead.

The Spirit of Christ has always been.

williamjordan · Aug 30, 2023

SpeakTruth101 said:

There's numerous problems here. You made some very serious misteps.

Problem 1:
Depending on which version of Job (the Masoretic or the LXX) you read, it may indicate that the angels cried for joy when God brought the starry hosts into existence. But if you consider the Genesis account; God creates the starry hosts, the sun, and the moon on Day 4 of creation. But what happened on Day 2? God brought forth the heavenly “dwelling space.”

For the heavenly hosts to even exist, they would have had to have an abode to dwell in.

In the Genesis account, God creates the heavenly dwelling space on Day 2. But on Day 3, God creates the earthly abode. Then beginning on Day 4, God fills the heavenly dwelling space. And on Day 5, God begins filling the earthly dwelling space with its hosts.

Just as sea creatures could not live without their dwelling space first established (the sea), neither could angels (or men). This is why the living creatures are not brought into existence until after their proper abodes were first established. This is also the reason why man was created on the sixth day: Because all things were created for him.

So to argue that the angels were present when God first began the creation project, is off. If Job 38 were read correctly, then the most one would be able to argue was that the angels were present by Day 2 or possibly some time on Day 4, prior to the stars existence. But they most certainly were not present prior to Day 1 of creation. One could even argue that the “stars” are representative of the angels, as it is often symbolic in nature.

The question that needs to be answered is: At the time of Genesis 1:1, were the angels in existence? Job 38 does not indicate that they were, not even in the slightest sense. And it wasn't even until Genesis 1:6 that the heavenly dwelling space was even created.

In the Job account, there is nothing in the text that would lead one to assume that angels were in existence prior to Gen. 1:1-2. In fact, Job 38:4-7 (Masoretic) only places their existence prior to (or in sequence with) the events recorded in Gen. 1:16. Job’s account tells us absolutely nothing of their existence prior to Gen. 1:6-8, much less, Gen. 1:1-2.

Job 38:4 is limited in scope; it does not say, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth,” but exclusively refers to, “the foundations of the earth.”

In their independent accounts, 2 Enoch and Jubilees, both place the creation of the angelic hosts somewhere along the 7-Day spectrum:

In 2 Enoch (28:1-33:2), the heavenly abode was created on Day 1. And then on Day 2 of the creation project, God then fills the heavenly abode with its hosts. This places their existence on par with Day 2 of creation (cf. Gen. 1:6-8).
In Jubilee (2:1-33), the angelic hosts are brought into existence on Day 1 of creation. And even though the two accounts may (at least in some regard) differ, the one thing they do agree on, is: That the angelic hosts did not exist prior to Gen. 1:1-2.
Psalm 148 provides further support. The author of Psalm 148 lists the angels amongst the things created in a context which alludes back to Gen. 1.

Even in the Palestinian Targumim, though I do disagree with it’s interpretation of Gen. 1:26, says in passing, “And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth.”

And in 2 Ezra 6, it lists the “heavenly hosts” amongst created things (2 Ezra 6:3) in a context where the Genesis story of creation is in view (2 Ezra 6:1–6), though it does not specifically identify which day they were brought into existence (2 Ezra 6:38–54).

What I find convincing is 2 Ezra 6:6,

This statement in 2 Ezra 6:6, when paired with 2 Ezra 6:3, does seem to fly in the face of the claim found in the Palestinian Targumim that angels assisted God in creation of the earthly realm. 2 Ezra 6:3 identifies the angels as being created (amongst the “world” and all it’s “inhabitants”), but in 2 Ezra 6:6 it states explicitly, “and they were made through me alone and not through another; just as the end shall come through me alone and not through another.” Though the Palestinian Targumim and 2 Ezra disagree on this point, the important take away is that both sources agree that the heavenly hosts have their place in existence at sometime during the 7-Day spectrum.

Jesus, before becoming a man

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