Jehovah’s Witnesses

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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Why does he lead with "King James Bible Believing?"
Probably not a good idea, but sooner or later he has to take a stand on the Bible version issue. So does everyone. This issue has divided Christians unnecessarily and the modern versions have done a lot of harm.
This is because of Kittle, (name could be mispelled from me) a German scholar...
That was Rudolf Kittel, a scholar who basically corrupted the Old Testament. All the critical texts now turn to Kittel's Biblia Hebraica for their OT rather than to the traditional Masoretic Text. As to the NIV it is clearly a corrupt paraphrase.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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Well, I made it to six minutes and already he's distorting the truth. He claims that in Spanish-speaking countries, JWs use the name Salón for their meeting places rather than Kingdom Hall. He said the reason for this is because Salón means "barber shop" and JWs "cut up the Bible and cut up the true doctrines of the scriptures." Actually a salón is simply a room where guests are received or an exhibition hall. This is so ridiculous I can only imagine where it will go from here. I don't intend to find out. lol

It's unfortunate because this has the potential to be a good video in the hands of an honest teacher.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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.
Psalm 45:6 is usually translated like this:

"Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

The Watchtower Society translates it like this:

"God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever"

Chabad.org translates it like this:

"Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever"

Seeing as how the Hebrew word 'elohiym is a bit ambiguous, then either "God" or
"judge" will do-- at least in the Old Testament. But when we go over to the New
Testament, we quickly discover that "God" is the better choice of words because the
Greek word theόs usually always, with very few exceptions, indicates a divine being
rather than a judge or a magistrate when it's modified by the little Greek article "ho".

Here's how the Watchtower Society translates Heb 1:8

"With reference to the Son: God is your throne forever and ever"

I lay no claim as a qualified linguist, nor even an armchair linguist; but I really have to
question from whence the Society came up with "God is your throne".

A Watchtower Society missionary explained to me that "God is your throne" is a
metaphor indicating that the Son's throne is established with the power of God rather
than the power of men (John 18:36). In other words: "God is your throne" is an
interpretation rather than a translation.

POSIT: The usual translations of Ps 45:6 and Heb 1:8 has one God speaking to another
God. Does that make sense to you?

REPLY: That kind of reasoning has been a fatal flaw in the Society's theology ever
since the days of Charles Taze Russell and Joseph F. Rutherford; viz: much of the
Society's theology is based upon what makes sense to it rather than what the Bible
reveals to it.

POSIT: If you read it as "God is your throne" then it's sensible and consistent.

REPLY: Sensible to whom? The Watchtower Society and its minions? Consistent
with what? The Watchtower Society's theology? And besides, "God is your throne" isn't
even a valid translation, rather, it's an interpretation, i.e. it says what the Society thinks
Ps 45:6 and Heb 1:8 ought to say rather than what those verses actually say.

I once asked a missionary how he knew for himself that the Society's theology was
reliable. He answered: "They go by the Bible and everything they say makes sense."
Well; a large percentage of traditional Christianity goes by the Bible, and much of what it
says makes sense too.

Bottom line is: the missionary couldn't really be certain whether the Society is reliable:
he was courageously assuming the bosses know what they're talking about; but no one
should ever do that because of the Society's caveat located in the Feb 2017
Watchtower-Study Edition; paragraph 12, under the heading; "Who is leading God's
People today?" which reads like this:

"The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal
matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index
includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural
understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would
produce perfect spiritual food.
"
_
 

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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Hello Samuel, how are you all I could not pass your post but have anyone read this search about Jehovah's Witness's Belief, you might find it interesting.

jehovah witness beliefs - Search (bing.com)

And about Jesus is GOD, some of it is in the search, well after Jesus said that God is a spirit, and the Angel Gabriel said to Mary He shall be called the Son of the highest, I had believed that for a while, but now we have learned that He is both Lord and Christ from different the scriptures.

Love, Walter and Debbie
Thursday 3-30-23 5th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Nisan 7, 5783 11th. Spring Day

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.

45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)

51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

53 And every man went unto his own house.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 

Walter

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2022
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A couple times a month, JW’s come to visit the industrial estate where I work. They’re always welcoming and we always have a healthy debate, but everytime I ask the question why they don’t believe Jesus is God they stop talking and direct me to their website.
I can’t understand how someone who reads the same scriptures that we do, does not believe that Jesus is Lord? Or are they reading different scripture? As they’re trying to convert me, I offer counterpoints to make them think about what they believe. I’m not bashing JW’s. I just can’t fathom how you can read the same book, but come to a different conclusion of who/what God is. Thoughts?
3-30-23

After having experiences with some Jehovah's Witnesses,

Romans 8

The Spirit Delivers From The Power Of The Flesh

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 

Walter

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2022
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firstthings1sttab.tripod.com
3-30-23

After having experiences with some Jehovah's Witnesses,

Romans 8

The Spirit Delivers From The Power Of The Flesh

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit Gives Sonship

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Spirit Assures Of Future Glory

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Spirit Assures Of Final Victory

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 

Walter

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2022
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Thursday 3-30-23 5th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Nisan 7, 5783 11th. Spring Day

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.

45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)

51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

53 And every man went unto his own house.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Probably not a good idea, but sooner or later he has to take a stand on the Bible version issue. So does everyone. This issue has divided Christians unnecessarily and the modern versions have done a lot of harm.
That was Rudolf Kittel, a scholar who basically corrupted the Old Testament. All the critical texts now turn to Kittel's Biblia Hebraica for their OT rather than to the traditional Masoretic Text. As to the NIV it is clearly a corrupt paraphrase.
The NIV is not a paraphrase. It is a translation of the Bible in contemporary English.
It is an accurate translation that has a good balance of dynamic equivalence/literal.

The NIV does not have a cult-following like the KJV.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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The NIV is not a paraphrase. It is a translation of the Bible in contemporary English. It is an accurate translation that has a good balance of dynamic equivalence/literal.
That is a description of a paraphrase! Now I could give you a few dozen examples of that from the NIV if you wish, but it would not change your viewpoint.

A true translation of Scripture would adhere to a WORD-FOR-WORD equivalency (as much as humanly possible). Not a so-called "dynamic equivalency" which has to be revised every few years. So yes, the NIV is a CORRUPT paraphrase. And all diligent Christians can discover this for themselves. They will need to sit down with the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts and then compare what is in the NIV. And then go into a state of shock at the hundreds of omissions and misrepresentations!

Why is it the the Hebrew scribes from the time of Moses regarded every letter of the Hebrew Bible as significant? Because those were the words of God. So the King James translators regarded every word carefully and gave the best translation possible. Where necessary they added explanatory words in italics.

Why is it that conservative Christian scholars and theologians for hundreds of years never questioned the veracity and reliability of the Authorized Version? Because they could personally verify whether of not that translation had been faithful and true to the written words of God in Hebrew and English. The translators spent a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to ensure that they did not misrepresent anything.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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Oregon
.
According to the Watchtower Society: the resurrection of the dead, spoken
of in the fifteenth chapter of 1Corinthians, is not talking about re-energizing
a corpse in order to bring it back to life. No, because according to their way
of thinking; if someone's corpse were returned to life, its owner would be
barred from the kingdom of God.

1Cor 15:50 . . .This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
God’s kingdom,

But human remains are likened to seeds (1Cor 15:35-53) which would be
quite useless were they to be thrown away. On the contrary; the seeds have
to be kept on hand so they can undergo a transformation suitable for the
kingdom together with the bodies of those who are alive at the time of their
rendezvous with the Lord. (1Thess 4:13-18)

FAQ: What about the remains of people whose bodies are no longer intact
such as those eaten and digested by critters, burned to ashes, and/or blown
to smithereens in war?

REPLY: It was God's intentions from the very beginning that human bodies
return to the dust from whence they're made. (Gen 3:19).

FAQ: Supposing some of the atoms that made my body go into making
another person's body after mine is dead and dissolved back to dust? How
will God fully restore both our bodies to life seeing as how He will have need
of the atoms of each of us to do so?

REPLY: The chemical constitution of the various natural atoms listed on the
periodic table are identical; it's not as if they're snowflakes; viz: if God
needs some carbon atoms to reconstruct your body, He could utilize carbon
atoms from a Sequoia cactus and they would work just fine without the
slightest need for adjustment because every carbon atom on earth is a
precise duplicate of every other carbon atom on earth; viz: all carbon atoms
are just one kind of carbon atom, i.e. the carbon atoms in your body are not
unique.

So it isn't necessary for God to locate all your original carbon atoms in order
to reconstruct your original body; He just needs carbon atoms; and they are
very plentiful in nature: same with other kinds of atoms, e.g. iron, calcium,
phosphorus, sodium, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.

POSIT: Well; no matter because the Bible says that flesh and blood cannot
inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 15:50)

REPLY: The transformation that living and deceased Christians will undergo
per 1Thess 4:13-18 is a bit of a mystery except we know it will alter their
natural bodies to conform to Christ's glorified body. (Phil 3:21, 1John 3:2)
The thing is: though his body is glorified, it's still capable of dining upon
ordinary food and beverage.

Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you
before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in
the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:28-30 . . However, you are the ones that have stuck with me in
my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a
covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in
my kingdom.
_
 

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1Thess 4:16a . .The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a
commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet,

The only archangel named in the New Testament is Michael (Jude 9)
However, according to Daniel 10:13 there's more than one archangel so I
think it would be a mistake to insist the archangel's voice in 1Thess 4:16 is
Michael's.

"God's trumpet" is possibly relative to Rev 1:10-18

1Thess 4:16b-17 . . and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise
first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be
caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That scene would be easier to picture were the Earth flat, but it's a huge
sphere. So when those folks are taken up into the sky, they will form a sort
of human Oort Cloud all 'round the world at first.

Their exact rendezvous location with the Lord is a bit of a mystery. It's been
suggested they'll go up and actually pass thru the clouds and their assembly
with the lord "in the air" will take place above them.

FAQ: What if there are no clouds in some areas?

REPLY: I think we can expect adequate high altitude weather conditions for
that one special day; it is after all a miraculous event.
_
 

Flannery

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A couple times a month, JW’s come to visit the industrial estate where I work. They’re always welcoming and we always have a healthy debate, but everytime I ask the question why they don’t believe Jesus is God they stop talking and direct me to their website.
I can’t understand how someone who reads the same scriptures that we do, does not believe that Jesus is Lord? Or are they reading different scripture? As they’re trying to convert me, I offer counterpoints to make them think about what they believe. I’m not bashing JW’s. I just can’t fathom how you can read the same book, but come to a different conclusion of who/what God is. Thoughts?
I've had a read through of their heavily abridged and highly edited edition of the Bible, too. I found it very doughy. I think the object of the program is to walk you through a morals seminar and get you to decide, while accepting their belief that Jesus is not God, whether the hero of the narrative is He, or Satan. I agree with other posts here and have to say that I didn't like the citizens personally as people, but the humanist nature of the show did hold one point of interest for me, as to whether Jesus, whom they think is a human, or Satan, who the teach is an "invisible spirit" like Jehovah, is the "good guy".

I will very quickly grant that this obscure point is of almost solei modernist Humanist philosophical interest, and not deep in terms of that which is 2000-year-old Christian theology, but I did master it and found it of note.
 

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Probably not a good idea, but sooner or later he has to take a stand on the Bible version issue. So does everyone. This issue has divided Christians unnecessarily and the modern versions have done a lot of harm.
That was Rudolf Kittel, a scholar who basically corrupted the Old Testament. All the critical texts now turn to Kittel's Biblia Hebraica for their OT rather than to the traditional Masoretic Text. As to the NIV it is clearly a corrupt paraphrase.
I tend to think that "King James Bible people" are a bit offside. The original manuscript, both handwritten in copy from the Hebrew, and also illustrated in color by the same man, are in Dublin, Ireland. The printed translation available in the United States doesn't bother me, it's in good colonial heritage English, but I do find that people who over rely on it strike me as partial scholars at best, and a tad hypocritical at worst. How much time have those cats spent looking at the book? There are a large number of scans of the famous picture pages on a website at Trinity University of Ireland, but maybe that isn't even the point. The book is called "the Illuminated Manuscript" in English, specifically because it is said that James Unger drew the illustrations from his own spiritual visions which he has while he was working as a translator. That never comes up. Also, even though King James people are often a lot vocal about their Tel Aviv diplomacy and a little bit forward about their Zionist politics, the Dublin Codex is in Ireland, which seceded from England during the first and second world wars. Their lack of scholarship on the British schism during the holocaust just really unbalances their globalist evangelism program and even makes me wonder about their signs of the times skywatching. I let that set go entirely, there are other versions.
 

Flannery

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Psalm 45:6 is usually translated like this:

"Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

The Watchtower Society translates it like this:

"God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever"

Chabad.org translates it like this:

"Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever"

Seeing as how the Hebrew word 'elohiym is a bit ambiguous, then either "God" or
"judge" will do-- at least in the Old Testament. But when we go over to the New
Testament, we quickly discover that "God" is the better choice of words because the
Greek word theόs usually always, with very few exceptions, indicates a divine being
rather than a judge or a magistrate when it's modified by the little Greek article "ho".


Here's how the Watchtower Society translates Heb 1:8

"With reference to the Son: God is your throne forever and ever"

I lay no claim as a qualified linguist, nor even an armchair linguist; but I really have to
question from whence the Society came up with "God is your throne".


A Watchtower Society missionary explained to me that "God is your throne" is a
metaphor indicating that the Son's throne is established with the power of God rather
than the power of men (John 18:36). In other words: "God is your throne" is an
interpretation rather than a translation.


POSIT: The usual translations of Ps 45:6 and Heb 1:8 has one God speaking to another
God. Does that make sense to you?

REPLY: That kind of reasoning has been a fatal flaw in the Society's theology ever
since the days of Charles Taze Russell and Joseph F. Rutherford; viz: much of the
Society's theology is based upon what makes sense to it rather than what the Bible
reveals to it.


POSIT: If you read it as "God is your throne" then it's sensible and consistent.

REPLY: Sensible to whom? The Watchtower Society and its minions? Consistent
with what? The Watchtower Society's theology? And besides, "God is your throne" isn't
even a valid translation, rather, it's an interpretation, i.e. it says what the Society thinks
Ps 45:6 and Heb 1:8 ought to say rather than what those verses actually say.


I once asked a missionary how he knew for himself that the Society's theology was
reliable. He answered: "They go by the Bible and everything they say makes sense."
Well; a large percentage of traditional Christianity goes by the Bible, and much of what it
says makes sense too.


Bottom line is: the missionary couldn't really be certain whether the Society is reliable:
he was courageously assuming the bosses know what they're talking about; but no one
should ever do that because of the Society's caveat located in the Feb 2017
Watchtower-Study Edition; paragraph 12, under the heading; "Who is leading God's
People today?" which reads like this:


"The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal
matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index
includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural
understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would
produce perfect spiritual food."
_

The Watchtower Society opens up the sensitive issue of the translation you use and how much of the original texture comes through. I don't doubt that the commentaries many people use come to overshadow the original source, but the textual letter of the Bible are always the biggest source of conflict. I've run across pockets of revelry before in the libraries and publishing or bookselling business in which it turned out that literary allusions to the book specifically tended to rely very heavily on mis accenting passages from an ancient language, or on digging into the begats sections of the Old Testament for obscure names to totally over imagine in the context of pulp fiction. Simplified textual translations relying heavily of the argumentations of commentators really don't help.
 

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Thursday 3-30-23 5th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Nisan 7, 5783 11th. Spring Day

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

The Watchtower Society has a very interesting but simultaneously extremely complex historical context.
10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.

45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)

51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

53 And every man went unto his own house.

Love, Walter and Debbie
The Watchtower Society has a very interesting and complex historical context. Charels Taze Russel wrote and preached in New York during the American Civil War, and part of his "Greatest Man who Ever Lived" pamphlet was a contemporary cultural reaction to then emerging "Great Man" humanism, as a theory of historical progress. Napoleon and his followers created the new Humanism, and Napoleon of course thought that he was the Greatest man who ever lived, he also had followers, and Will Durant is one, who were (and still are) extremely fond of writing biography of famous people especially from the world of the schoolmen. It was a tempestuous time, and the law of the jungle was very much in effect in Europe. Watchtower theory that Jesus was the greatest man who ever lived loses something by the fact that He isn't their God (if He isn't even God, I wonder why they're incorporated as a religion), but it's a conversation opener.

As far as the conspiracy within the religious life of the Hebrew state, that's a Bible story, and it's meaning is worthy of much study. Of course, if Jesus was only the Last King of Israel, betrayed to his death in the Temple of Herod and not even risen again or coming back on the last day, due to being no more than any other man, and his morals the only superiority of him, then I'm not sure why His death is remembered in a Northern City Based republican book club. The last King of the Jews was murdered by other Jews during the Roman occupation? Sorry to hear that, but so was Julius Caeser, in Rome just before Chrit's death, and Alexander the Great was encircled by the forces of Katalya of India about 350 years before that, and as a matter of fact, Charles Stewart was murdered by Crowell in England, which is no skin off the Russian Republican's nose in the City Melee of New York during Lincoln's War.

I understand their simplified program because I've read the Bible before, but I'm not sure why they have an incorporation, if He isn't God, why be religious about Him? I mean, I don't worship the last Czar of Russai, or The Archduke Ferdinand or the dead Kaiser Willhelm of Germany, and they are all state monarchs conspired against and killed.
 

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John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we
had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son
from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

The Greek word from which "undeserved kindness" is derived is charitos;
which itself is derived from charis (khar'-ece)

"undeserved kindness" isn't a translation of charis/charitos; rather, it's the
Watchtower Society's own opinion of what they think those words ought to
mean. The literal meaning is graciousness.

John Que and Jane Doe Witness are being deprived of viewing some very
pleasant aspects of the only-begotten Son's personality by interpreting
charis to mean undeserved kindness because graciousness says some
wonderful things about not only the flesh that the Word became; but also
about the Father from whom the Word came.

Webster's defines "graciousness" as; kind, courteous, inclined to good will,
generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial,
affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.

Cordial stresses warmth and heartiness

Affable implies easy to approach, and readiness to respond pleasantly to
conversation or requests or proposals

Genial stresses cheerfulness and even joviality

Sociable suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others

Generous is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz: magnanimous,
kindly, and liberal in giving

Charitable means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz:
benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.

Altruistic means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others;
viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels
good to do so.

Tactful indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain
good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary
conflict.

Here's a couple of passages from the NWT where the Society's translation
committee had the academic decency to let charis/charito speak for
themselves instead of butting in to tell people what they think those words
ought to mean.

"Keep on teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, praises to
God, spiritual songs with graciousness" (Col 3:16)

"Let your utterance be always with graciousness." (Col 4:6)

NOTE: The claim that the only begotten son is somehow undeserving of
kindness is of course 110% false. Worthiness is in every fiber of Christ's
being. (Dan 7:13-14, Phil 2:8-11, Rev 5:1-14, Rev 19:11)
_
 

Webers.Home

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Ecc 12:7 . . .The dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be, and
the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.

The question is: What does God do with people's spirits after He has them
back in custody?

Watchtower theology says Michael the arch angel had to die in order to
become a human being. Now, the amazing part of the story is that Michael
didn't go completely out of existence when he died; his life force carried on.

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary.
"
(Watchtower magazine, 2/15/1982, page 7)

So, if it's possible for God to transfer the life force of a deceased spirit being
into a human body in order to preserve the spirit being's continuity of life,
then I see no reason to question whether God can do the very same thing in
reverse; viz: transfer the life force of a deceased human being into a spirit
body; thus preserving the human being's continuity of life, for example:

Heb 12:22-23 . . But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the
living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly,
and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the
heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones
who have been made perfect,

"spiritual lives" isn't a translation, rather, it's an interpretation of the Greek
word pneúmasi, which is a mite ambiguous. One of its meanings pertains to
spirit existence-- i.e. spirit beings --and is so translated in something like
thirty-two verses in regular Bibles.

NOTE: The Watchtower Society isn't consistent with its interpretation of
pneúmasi. For example at Rev 16:13-14 they say it means inspired
expressions, and at 1Pet 3:19 they say it means spirits; i.e. sentient non
organic beings.

* The afterlife is something about which I understand very little. However,
it's readily seen from Isaiah 14:4-20 and Luke 16:19-31 that folks on the
other side are conscious, sentient, and recognizable; plus, they exhibit
human characteristics, e.g. Abraham has a bosom, Lazarus has a finger, and
the rich man has a tongue. From all appearances, people over there appear
fully human. Exactly how that is, I don't really know. That world over there
is obviously very different than the world with which I am familiar over here
_
 

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John 5:39 . . You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by
means of them you will have everlasting life.

That's still true even to this day, viz: there are Jews actually believing they
obtain everlasting life academically, i.e. from study. The Jehovah's
Witnesses believe that way too; and they get that from John 17:3 which
says, in the Watchtower Bible:

"This means everlasting life: their taking in knowledge of you, the only true
God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

The common understanding of life pertains to the nature of something's
existence. For example in the beginning God created two kinds of life:
sentient life and non sentient life, i.e. flora and fauna. Neither of those kinds
life are everlasting; which can be defined as "perpetual" for example Psalm
90:1-2 which says:

"O Jehovah, you yourself have proved to be a real dwelling for us during
generation after generation. Before the mountains themselves were born, or
you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the
productive land: even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God."

In other words: God always was, He always is, and He always shall be.

In reality, the reason Jesus endows his followers with the kind of life shared
by he and his Father is to make it possible for them to relate to him and His
father because created life's limitations prevent it from associating with God
except on the most elementary level. (1Cor 2:11-16)
_
 

Flannery

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The NIV is not a paraphrase. It is a translation of the Bible in contemporary English.
It is an accurate translation that has a good balance of dynamic equivalence/literal.

The NIV does not have a cult-following like the KJV.
He paraphrased it? uh oh. Actually, in spoken conversation, I use Biblical phraseology without citing it, the ideas in the Book are considered part of the language. As a matter of fact they are part of the language, and God created the English by the same means as everone else, and their language too, at the Tower of Babel.