It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[newbirth]

[/COLOR]
God's promises are not those of Satan.

I give them eternal life & they shall never perish.

satan does oppose trusting the Lord to do what He promises.

The doctrine is not OSAS, but OSS = once saved, saved:

That is the rocket science conclusion that if a man is saved, why he is saved!!!

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

He who began a good work in you will complete it.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

vs 1 says they were saved....vs 4 say they not saved
Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Ac 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul had Timothy circumcised to protect him from the jews...not in anyway to justify him before God....just as many here in the States are circumcised for health reasons....Here is the circumcision Paul taught.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Mitspa]

You've yet to show where God's word says Christ will save His people unconditionally.
You're still adding that idea to the verse.

If He saves them from their "sins" that sounds like the only condition that matters...right? One is only condemned by their sins...if He saves them from that condition....what else is left?

 

[Hizikyah]

If He saves them from their "sins" that sounds like the only condition that matters...right? One is only condemned by their sins...if He saves them from that condition....what else is left?

what else is left?

LOL I finally think I understand you Mitspa!

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

 

[SeaBass]

What I see is unconditional garbage. Song & dance, cantaleta.

Then I see God's Word:

Believe on the Lord Jesus,
& thou SHALT BE SAVED.

NEVER PERISH.

You have been trying to add to Mt 1:21 to force it to say Jesus will save His people unconditionally even though 'unconditional' is not in the verse.

Now above you have one shalt be saved if he CONDITIONALLY believes.

So is being saved unconditional or conditional?

 

[Hizikyah]

Ac 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul had Timothy circumcised to protect him from the jews...not in anyway to justify him before God....just as many here in the States are circumcised for health reasons....Here is the circumcision Paul taught.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So it is ok to be deceitful to please men?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

2 Corinthians 12:16 Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Estō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἔστω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]be it so[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δέ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]egō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐγὼ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2599 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]katebarēsa[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατεβάρησα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]did burden[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]alla[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5225 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hyparchōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑπάρχων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3835 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]panourgos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πανοῦργος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]crafty,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1388 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dolō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δόλῳ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by trickery[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2983 [e]
[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elabon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔλαβον.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I caught.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

English Standard Version
But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.

New American Standard Bible
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

King James Bible
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

 

[SeaBass]

It is you who are adding the word "unconditional." Just take Him at His word.

believe on the Lord Jesus & thou shalt be saved.

Seabass seems hopeless, but for the sake of any audience, the only responsibility ever put on man for salvation is believe, trust, depend upon the Savior -- have faith. There is no grocery list of hoops to jump through. Repent = change mind from non-belief to belief.
confess = homologeo. Homo = same; log = saying. You must agree with God, say the same as He about Christ, that He is YHWH become man in the flesh, have Him correctly defined when you trust Him as Savior. Water never saves. Spirit baptism is salvific, but it is not something a man does, but something done to Him. Man has one thing to do BELIEVE.

Again you try and make salvation unconditional but then say one must conditionally believe to be saved.

If one must believe to be saved then belief is a condition and I am not adding anything. If salvation is UNconditional then one would not even have to believe to be saved.

If you just for a moment take off your faith only blinders you would see Jesus made repentance confession and baptism Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33. Mk 16:16 just as essential and important to salvation as He made believing, Jn 8:24.

You'll never be able to get anyone unconditionally saved while they remain impenitent, a denier of Christ, in their unremitted sins.

 

[newbirth]

No that's taking all scripture into account ...the law, its purpose and effect and the gospel and the doctrines of righteousness by faith. With the many warnings throughout the New Testament, made to those who turn from faith back to the law of Moses..."FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH"

you consider everything a man do as returning to the law of Moses...if a man says you must not steal you accuse him of following the law of Moses...the law of the spirit in Christ which is in faith also says you must not steal...so on what basis do you accuse one of being a legalist or following the law of Moses?...Any man who is in Christ who does not steal ,kill ,hate, do those things by the faith of Christ...why do you accuse them of following the law of Moses...do you steal? do you kill, if not then you are also following the law of Moses...the righteousness of the law was in the offering of sacrifices to cover sins...so unless you see one offering the blood of bulls and goats you cannot accuse them of following the law of Moses...

 

[Mitspa]

So it is ok to be deceitful to please men?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

2 Corinthians 12:16 Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Estō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἔστω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]be it so[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δέ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]egō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐγὼ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2599 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]katebarēsa[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατεβάρησα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]did burden[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]alla[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5225 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hyparchōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑπάρχων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3835 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]panourgos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πανοῦργος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]crafty,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1388 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dolō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δόλῳ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by trickery[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2983 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elabon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔλαβον.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I caught.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

English Standard Version
But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.

New American Standard Bible
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

King James Bible
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

No Paul said that to the Jews he became as a Jew to win them to Christ....Timothy was with him in this ministry.

 

[SeaBass]

The word says,
"I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish."

You reckon Seabass will argue: "But it don't say "on Friday," so if a Friday comes around they may perish on Friday??? Or will he argue that salvation is not a gift because it says "I give them," but not, "I give them as a gift"???

Will he argue that Baal might also be a savior & give eternal life, because it doesn't say, "I and no one else" ???

You continue to leave out verse 27 that tells who God holds in His hand and why they will not perish.

Those who God holds in His hand are Christ's sheep. Christ sheep are the ones that CONDITIONALLY obediently in their continued hearing and following of Christ. And because they faithfully continue to CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ, God in turn is faithful to them not to let them perish, be snatched out of His hand. The sheeps "not perishing" therefore has NOTHING at all to do with eternal security but is because of their faithful hearing and following Christ. If they become unfaithful and quit hearing and following Christ, they no longer qualify as one of Christ's sheep and then they can perish having removed themselves out of God's hand.


Keep verse 27 in context with verse 28 and not take v28 out of context and then add eternal security to it.

 

[Mitspa]

you consider everything a man do as returning to the law of Moses...if a man says you must not steal you accuse him of following the law of Moses...the law of the spirit in Christ which is in faith also says you must not steal...so on what basis do you accuse one of being a legalist or following the law of Moses?...Any man who is in Christ who does not steal ,kill ,hate, do those things by the faith of Christ...why do you accuse them of following the law of Moses...do you steal? do you kill, if not then you are also following the law of Moses...the righteousness of the law was in the offering of sacrifices to cover sins...so unless you see one offering the blood of bulls and goats you cannot accuse them of following the law of Moses...

No not at all...I say love others as Christ loves you and you wont even think of stealing like you do under the law of Moses.

 

[Hizikyah]

No Paul said that to the Jews he became as a Jew to win them to Christ....Timothy was with him in this ministry.

You just double spoke, you said no and then proceeded to say its ok to be someone who you are not to cater to whoever you are around at the time....

Did Paul beget you and become your daddy?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

 

[newbirth]

Ac 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul had Timothy circumcised to protect him from the jews...not in anyway to justify him before God....just as many here in the States are circumcised for health reasons....Here is the circumcision Paul taught.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

quite correct and on point.....
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[Mitspa]

You just double spoke, you said no and then proceeded to say its ok to be someone who you are not to cater to whoever you are around at the time....

Did Paul beget you and become your daddy?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

No I said what Paul said ...that to win the Jews to Christ...he became as a Jew....


1Co 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[SeaBass]

You reckon someone will argue how eternal security isn't eternal security unless you say "unconditional eternal security" -- but then someone else will say, hold on thar, that ain't good nuff, you gots to say "unconditional unconditional eternal security," why you just might get roasted on unconditional eternal security, so you either must get you asbestos clothes or have "unconditional unconditional eternal security," for if you only have unconditional eternal security, you might get roasted.

But hold on there -- we need a canard about how eternal isn't good enough, it gots to be everlasting eternal security, in fact, unconditional, guaranteed, eternal, everlasting, perpetual secure security.

Now having security ain't no good if it ain't secure security, cause if your security is insecure, man you gots big problems.

You have been adding UNconditional to Mt 1:21, Jesus will unconditionally save His people.

So will Jesus save people in their unbelief or must one conditionally believe to be saved? You cannot have it both ways.

"His people" that Jesus saved are Christians. Therefore one must conditionally believe, become a Christian to be one of His people that He saves.
Or does Jesus just unconditionally saves people at random whether they conditionally believe becoming a Christian or not?

 

[Hizikyah]

No I said what Paul said ...that to win the Jews to Christ...he became as a Jew....


1Co 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

SO are you saying it is ok to present yourself as someone you are not? Im confused in what you are saying.

 

[SeaBass]

If He saves them from their "sins" that sounds like the only condition that matters...right? One is only condemned by their sins...if He saves them from that condition....what else is left?

Who is "His people" that Jesus saves? Christians, so one must conditionally become a Christian to be one of His people that He saves. And one does not unconditionally become a Christian by doing nothing.

Does Jesus save those that will not conditionally believe, Jn 8:24? Not conditionally repent Lk 13:3,5? Not conditionally confess Mt 10:32,33? Not conditionally baptized Mk 16:16? No on all counts.

 

[Mitspa]

Who is "His people" that Jesus saves? Christians, so one must conditionally become a Christian to be one of His people that He saves.

Does Jesus save those that will not conditionally believe, Jn 8:24? Not conditionally repent Lk 13:3,5? Not conditionally confess Mt 10:32,33? Not conditionally baptized Mk 16:16? No on all counts.

Well I don't know what you mean by the term...that's you replacing you "conditions" in the place of Gods clear and evident Word.... the "condition" that condemns all is sin...now if He saves us from that condition...then what else is needed as it relates to salvation?

 

[SeaBass]

Well I don't know what you mean by the term...that's you replacing you "conditions" in the place of Gods clear and evident Word.... the "condition" that condemns all is sin...now if He saves us from that condition...then what else is needed as it relates to salvation?

Will Jesus save you from your sins if you do not conditionally "believe" Jn 8:24; Jn 3:16?

 

[Mitspa]

Will Jesus save you from your sins if you do not conditionally "believe" Jn 8:24; Jn 3:16?

Again you use a unbiblical term ...that you are trying to add to the truth of Gods Word...I reject any attempt to add words to God Word.... Now if you want to discuss the issue in terms of what is written? ...I will be glad to do that