It is FINISHED.

[BroTan]

No, you are wrong when you say Jesus Christ only saves me from my past sins but not my present or future sins.

True, when I sin after being saved I still repent and acknowledge my sin but I absolutely know without a doubt that God will forgive me - there is no fear of His wrath but, I am very concerned about hurting Him with my sin - that grieves me very much and I know He will correct and chasten me.

The Blood of Jesus Christ takes away all my sins and His Body imputes His Righteousness (human fulfillment of all the law required from me).

Jesus Christ seals me with the Holy Spirit and I am FOREVER His… I do not have to maintain my salvation with good works nor ever be in fear of losing it.

However, I absolutely looooove doing good works because I know it pleases God and is a blessing to others and myself- I receive great joy in doing good.

So say I'm wrong as if I wrote the writing of Paul in the Bible. Paul also says in (Rom. 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You had better continue in God’s goodness or you will be cut off. This is also the writing of thee Apostle Paul. You must continue to keep God’s laws if you expect to receive salvation.

Paul says in (Colo. 1:22-23) (v.22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (v.23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settle, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister. You must continue in the faith and not be moved by the cares of the world. It’s more than confessing the name of Jesus, salvation is a work in progress you must take it one day at a time. It is a sad thing to believe that once you say that you believe on Christ your journey is done. You have only taken the first steps toward learning about the true and living God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So say I'm wrong as if I wrote the writing of Paul in the Bible.

But your views do not comport with what Paul wrote.

Paul also says in (Rom. 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You had better continue in God’s goodness or you will be cut off. This is also the writing of thee Apostle Paul.

One must understand what "cut off" meant to the Jew of the 1st Century. It didn't mean "spiritual death" as it seems you assume.

It meant to die physically in the OT. It also meant to be removed from service to God, and the 1st Century Jew was very proud to be "one of the elect" people of the world. The idea of being removed from service to God would horrify such a Jew.

You must continue to keep God’s laws if you expect to receive salvation.

Listen to how paul answered this question, from a jailer:
The question: Acts 16:30 - He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Paul's answer: Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

So, either Paul's answer was wrong, or your claim above is wrong.

Salvation is received only one way: through faith in the Son of God and His work on the cross.

Salvation is NEVER received on the basis of ANY work man may do.

Paul says in (Colo. 1:22-23) (v.22) "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (v.23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settle, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister."

You must continue in the faith and not be moved by the cares of the world.

Why do you presume salvation is on the basis of "continuing in the faith". Paul didn't say that here, or anywhere else.

Follow both verses out. In v.22, God is able to "present you (the believer) holy and blameless". In v.23 we read about the condition by which God DOES present the believer holy and blameless: IF IF IF (potential) YOU (the believer) continue in the faith.

It’s more than confessing the name of Jesus, salvation is a work in progress you must take it one day at a time.

Now you are just contradicting what Jesus said and said very clearly in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Note that the red words "hears/believes" AND "has eternal life" are all present tense. This means that the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. So your comment is impossible. Salvation is NOT a "work in progress, and taking it one day at a time".

No. Rather, the possession of eternal life (salvation) is IMMEDIATE upon faith in Christ.

In fact, Jesus ended all discussion about eternal security in John 10:28.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

We know that the gift is given the MOMENT one believes, from John 5:24. So, from the MOMENT one believes, Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

It is a sad thing to believe that once you say that you believe on Christ your journey is done.

I've never heard any believer say that. The "one day at a time" that you mentioned refers to the believers' spiritual growth process.

I think you have confused or conflated salvation with spiritual growth.

 

[Lafftur]

So say I'm wrong as if I wrote the writing of Paul in the Bible. Paul also says in (Rom. 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You had better continue in God’s goodness or you will be cut off. This is also the writing of thee Apostle Paul. You must continue to keep God’s laws if you expect to receive salvation.

Your understanding of Romans 11:22 is not correct because you say that a person must continue to keep God's laws if they expect to receive salvation. Paul NEVER said that.

The "goodness of God" that Paul is referring to is being saved by grace not of works lest any man boast. The "severity of God" that Paul is referring to is Israel (or anyone) holding on to the works of the law to save them, thereby rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and King.

Our faith is in Jesus Christ ALONE to save us, NOT ANY of our filthy rag attempts to keep any of the law.

Paul says in (Colo. 1:22-23) (v.22) In the body of HIS flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (v.23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settle, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

Paul is telling us to continue in our faith in Jesus Christ ALONE -His Body, His Blood makes us holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight. We are NOT to trust in any of our good works or keeping of the law to save us. ALL our Faith for Salvation is in Christ ALONE.

We do grow and learn to do good works but NOT for Salvation, rather because we love God, want to be pleasing in His sight, and good works promote the Kingdom of God in the Earth, by doing good works we are a blessing to others and ourselves, and God has promised rewards in Heaven. However, it's just plain FUN being good!

You must continue in the faith and not be moved by the cares of the world. It’s more than confessing the name of Jesus, salvation is a work in progress you must take it one day at a time.

It is a sad thing to believe that once you say that you believe on Christ your journey is done. You have only taken the first steps toward learning about the true and living God.

Jesus Christ told us to ONLY BELIEVE in Him to be saved. That settles it, nothing else is required for Salvation.

No one said that your journey is done once you believe in Christ.... that's just the beginning of our journey. We're new born babes in Christ..... got to drink the milk, the bread, the living water, the meat and the wine! Growing up and maturing in Christ is definitely a process.....

 

[BroTan]

Your understanding of Romans 11:22 is not correct because you say that a person must continue to keep God's laws if they expect to receive salvation. Paul NEVER said that.

The "goodness of God" that Paul is referring to is being saved by grace not of works lest any man boast. The "severity of God" that Paul is referring to is Israel (or anyone) holding on to the works of the law to save them, thereby rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and King.

Our faith is in Jesus Christ ALONE to save us, NOT ANY of our filthy rag attempts to keep any of the law.



Paul is telling us to continue in our faith in Jesus Christ ALONE -His Body, His Blood makes us holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight. We are NOT to trust in any of our good works or keeping of the law to save us. ALL our Faith for Salvation is in Christ ALONE.

We do grow and learn to do good works but NOT for Salvation, rather because we love God, want to be pleasing in His sight, and good works promote the Kingdom of God in the Earth, by doing good works we are a blessing to others and ourselves, and God has promised rewards in Heaven. However, it's just plain FUN being good!




Jesus Christ told us to ONLY BELIEVE in Him to be saved. That settles it, nothing else is required for Salvation.

No one said that your journey is done once you believe in Christ.... that's just the beginning of our journey. We're new born babes in Christ..... got to drink the milk, the bread, the living water, the meat and the wine! Growing up and maturing in Christ is definitely a process.....

Well let's dig in a little deeper. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

You say you must obey God's word, so let's go as high as we can go, because A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life.

 

[BroTan]

But your views do not comport with what Paul wrote.


One must understand what "cut off" meant to the Jew of the 1st Century. It didn't mean "spiritual death" as it seems you assume.

It meant to die physically in the OT. It also meant to be removed from service to God, and the 1st Century Jew was very proud to be "one of the elect" people of the world. The idea of being removed from service to God would horrify such a Jew.


Listen to how paul answered this question, from a jailer:
The question: Acts 16:30 - He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Paul's answer: Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

So, either Paul's answer was wrong, or your claim above is wrong.

Salvation is received only one way: through faith in the Son of God and His work on the cross.

Salvation is NEVER received on the basis of ANY work man may do.


Why do you presume salvation is on the basis of "continuing in the faith". Paul didn't say that here, or anywhere else.

Follow both verses out. In v.22, God is able to "present you (the believer) holy and blameless". In v.23 we read about the condition by which God DOES present the believer holy and blameless: IF IF IF (potential) YOU (the believer) continue in the faith.


Now you are just contradicting what Jesus said and said very clearly in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Note that the red words "hears/believes" AND "has eternal life" are all present tense. This means that the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. So your comment is impossible. Salvation is NOT a "work in progress, and taking it one day at a time".

No. Rather, the possession of eternal life (salvation) is IMMEDIATE upon faith in Christ.

In fact, Jesus ended all discussion about eternal security in John 10:28.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

We know that the gift is given the MOMENT one believes, from John 5:24. So, from the MOMENT one believes, Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?


I've never heard any believer say that. The "one day at a time" that you mentioned refers to the believers' spiritual growth process.

I think you have confused or conflated salvation with spiritual growth.

Yes I agree with all those verse because one must believe, but then where are your Faith and works, with your belief.
Let’s go into Romans 10: 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.
(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. So as long as sin is in the world, we have to have the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But your views do not comport with what Paul wrote.

One must understand what "cut off" meant to the Jew of the 1st Century. It didn't mean "spiritual death" as it seems you assume.

Yes I agree with all those verse because one must believe, but then where are your Faith and works, with your belief.
Let’s go into Romans 10: 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.
(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. So as long as sin is in the world, we have to have the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

I don't see anything here that answers my question about what you think "spiritual death" means.

 

[Lafftur]

Well let's dig in a little deeper. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

You say you must obey God's word, so let's go as high as we can go, because A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life.

Oh yes! I absolutely love all the ten commandments and all that Jesus Christ commands us to do but, NONE of these good works will SAVE me. I am ONLY saved by the WORKS that Jesus Christ did for me with His Blood and Body on the cross and I receive all the WORKS Jesus Christ did for me by BELIEVING in Him ALONE for Salvation.

Now, the good works I do are because I love Him, enjoy being pleasing in His sight, being a blessing to others and myself - it's wonderful to obey God - brings me great joy and is so lifegiving!

Having other gods before Him, is like drinking a cup of poison..... it's just not something I desire to do. I could drink a cup of poison but, I have no desire to do so.

Committing adultery, or lying or stealing, or coveting....all sins are nothing but a cup of spiritual poison. I have no desire to drink it!

I'm not living in fear of losing my salvation or trying to maintain it, I simply do not desire to sin.

If I end up in my flesh and do sin (do drink that cup of poison) I will suffer a bit and cause God to also suffer a bit of sadness but, there is NO CONDEMNATION IN CHRIST, I can repent and ALWAYS be forgiven. God will correct me and chasten me because He LOOOOVES me! He is NOT going to take HIs Gift of Salvation away from me. Hallelujah!

I'm learning more and more with His Word and Holy Spirit, to avoid sin - that cup of poison.

 

[bluto]

You don't know if they believed only and neither does the word of God state that.
If you are correct and I am wrong, then you should be able to get things from God by simply believing for it without praying or asking God for whatever you desire or whatever you think his will is.
I repeat, there is only ONE kind of Godlike faith, as it is written, and it works as Jesus said it would in Mark 11: 22-24.
He started out by telling Peter to have the God kind of faith. He went on to say how a person can get whatever they say or pray for, if they believe what they say shall come to pass without any doubt. He never said anything about getting what you want by believing only.
You are ignoring all the promises of God that have conditions. Speaking verbally, being one of them.
Everyone who says you only need to believe, does not get anything from God.
Name one miracle God did for you by simply believing for it or that it was already done, without saying a word, without praying, without asking, or acting on said belief.
If you cannot get anything from God in the natural by simply believing without doing anything, then why would you think you or anyone else could be born again by the same said believe only mentality?
Even though it may seem like it does, the Bible does not contradict itself, because it is truth, and you can't ignore some scriptures and hold to others and expect that to be a sound doctrine, or even the truth. It's going to be incomplete, false, and wrong.
I say again, try as you might, to believe for your healing, Deliverance, or casting out a spirit, or for a loved one, and tell me how that works for you. Tell me how successful you were in getting what you believed, without any corresponding action.
It is God's spoken word that is with power, not the believing only of the heart.
Even as God did not believe the world's into existence, but did so by his word through faith, we should follow his example and do the same, seeing he is the creator of it, and has told us how it works.

I have a question for you? Are you connected to or learning some of things you have said from any "Word of Faith" teachers? Like maybe Kenneth Copeland and others like him? Secondly, Your statement here: "]You don't know if they believed only and neither does the word of God state that."

If your referring to Lafftur quoting Acts 10:43-48 it certainly does say they were saved upon believing. Follow the sequence of events. At Acts 10:43-44 Peter is speaking and the Holy Spirit upon all those who were listening to the message." What message? Read vs43. Then at vs45, "And all the circumcised "BELIEVERS" who had come with Peter were amazed, (Why were they amazed?) BECAUSE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT had been poured out upon the Gentiles ALSO. Also means just like they were saved.

Vs46, verifies them receiving the Holy Spirit because they were hearing them speaking with tongues and "EXALTING" God. I don't know of anybody that exalts or praises God that is not a Chirstian, do you? At vs47, Peter says, "Surely no one can refuse the water for them to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

You have here a "model" where they were saved "BEFORE" water baptism. This means that water baptism is not a requirement for salvation like many religions and cults teach. And btw, as a side note, the thief on the cross simply believed and Jesus said he would be with Him "this day" in Paradise. The point is the fact that God knows the heart and you don't know it, I don't and neither does anybody else. PS: Read 1 John 5:11-12.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Snacks]

Pride is easily offended and will reject Truth but, humility will not take offense and will seek Truth.

Wish I read those words 40 years ago.
Thanks for sharing. 💕

 

[BroTan]

Oh yes! I absolutely love all the ten commandments and all that Jesus Christ commands us to do but, NONE of these good works will SAVE me. I am ONLY saved by the WORKS that Jesus Christ did for me with His Blood and Body on the cross and I receive all the WORKS Jesus Christ did for me by BELIEVING in Him ALONE for Salvation.

Now, the good works I do are because I love Him, enjoy being pleasing in His sight, being a blessing to others and myself - it's wonderful to obey God - brings me great joy and is so lifegiving!

Having other gods before Him, is like drinking a cup of poison..... it's just not something I desire to do. I could drink a cup of poison but, I have no desire to do so.

Committing adultery, or lying or stealing, or coveting....all sins are nothing but a cup of spiritual poison. I have no desire to drink it!

I'm not living in fear of losing my salvation or trying to maintain it, I simply do not desire to sin.

If I end up in my flesh and do sin (do drink that cup of poison) I will suffer a bit and cause God to also suffer a bit of sadness but, there is NO CONDEMNATION IN CHRIST, I can repent and ALWAYS be forgiven. God will correct me and chasten me because He LOOOOVES me! He is NOT going to take HIs Gift of Salvation away from me. Hallelujah!

I'm learning more and more with His Word and Holy Spirit, to avoid sin - that cup of poison.

Sound real good how you speaking and beautiful to hear, but let's focus on more of the verses and Scriptures and see if lines with your conversation. Because Paul says Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.

Take a look. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20: 8-10, 13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. It is the false prophets that do not read the entire book from Genesis to Revelation! They are trying to do away with the Lord's laws. Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept. This include the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week!

Pay close attention to what the Chief Apostles says about Paul's writings.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (II Peter 3:14-17)

Pay very close attention to what Peter says, "in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." If we are not familiar with the whole Bible, we will never get any understanding of the Word of God. My advice to those that are seeking the Lord, read the entire Bible, don't start at the Book of Acts and stop at the Book of Hebrews. Read from the beginning to the end, meaning from Genesis to Revelation.

Now let's go back to the book of I Timothy and pick up were we left off… From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (I Timothy 1:6-8)

Notice what Paul says, "we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this that the law is not made for a righteous man." Why isn't the law for the righteous? If we are righteous we are keeping the law.

Remember the Biblical definition of sin is; whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) So the law is for whom? For the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. Looks like Paul is preaching "keep the law" like the rest of the Lord's disciples. The people that teach against the Lord's commandments teach traditions of men.

 

[BroTan]

FreeGrace2 said:
But your views do not comport with what Paul wrote.

One must understand what "cut off" meant to the Jew of the 1st Century. It didn't mean "spiritual death" as it seems you assume.

I don't see anything here that answers my question about what you think "spiritual death" means.

Let's take a look at that spiritual death in Roman 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life.
If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15).

Remember...In (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. Paul said in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The first death and the second death is because of sin. Sin is what put death on the table, both deaths Paul talks about in his writing. Jesus came to remove the creation from the second death not the first death. Paul says in Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So the death we talking about today is the second death and coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize in his name like Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16):

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's take a look at that spiritual death in Roman 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Since human beings are born spiritually dead, there is NO WAY for the "death" in Rom 8:6 to be spiritual death. rather, "to be carnally minded" is to be thinking and functioning from your human (sinful) nature. That dead describes the condition of fellowship when in the carnal state. The believer is out of fellowship, due to the sin. Psa 66:18 says that if we (the believer) consider sin, He (God) will not hear us. That is "death" of fellowship. Just like the prodigal son in Luke 15. Throughout the parable, Jesus described the idiot son as SON. There was ALWAYS relationship. But what was "lost" and "died" was fellowship.

In Jesus' day, if a son did what the prodigal did, it would be seen as the height of offense; like telling ol' dad "I wish you were dead, so I could get my cut, but since you aren't dead yet, just give me my share and I'll split". How's that for offensive behavior?

And when the son repented and confessed (1 John 1:9), how did the father describe the son's state after leaving? "my son was lost, was dead". That's how. Obviously the son didn't die, and certainly did know exactly where he was and knew how to get home.

So "lost" and "dead" here are metaphors for loss of fellowship with the father.

The first death and the second death is because of sin. ...............

So the death we talking about today is the second death

You are confused about how to understand "death" in the Bible. And there is nothing in the verses you quoted that are about the "second death", as you claim.

Yes, the first death is because of sin. When Adam sinned, there were 2 deaths on that day. The literal Hebrew says "dying, you shall die".

The "dying" refers to physical death, which is the aging process, which ultimately always leads to physical death. So, that very day Adam ate of that fruit, he began to age and ultimately died physically. That is the first death. In fact, heb 9:27 says it is appointed for man to die ONCE, and after that, the judgment.

So, what is the second death? Revelation twice describes the lake of fire as the "second death". Since unbelievers are already spiritually dead, it can't refer to spiritual death.

The Bible says that all unbelievers will be resurrected for the GWT judgment. Acts 24:15, John 5:28,29.

This resurrection, unlike that of all believers, will NOT involve a glorified body. So, unbelievers will get one more time in their physical bodies, to attend the GWT judgment.

After the judgment, the unbeliever will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). That is when their physical body will die AGAIN, or the second death.

So, all believers will die physically just once. But all unbelievers will die twice physically.

 

[Lafftur]

Sound real good how you speaking and beautiful to hear, but let's focus on more of the verses and Scriptures and see if lines with your conversation. Because Paul says Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.

Oh @BroTan, it's the flesh and pride that actually thinks it can KEEP the Law and gets upset when others are falling short of keeping the Law. It's a religious spirit that tries to keep everyone under the law of works.

Jesus Christ has set us free from the Law of Works and has put us under the Law of Grace because no one can keep ALL the Law, God knows this. If we could keep the Law, Jesus would not have had to die for us. Don't you see?

Jesus Christ spoke of TWO Commandments that fulfill ALL the Law and the Prophets.....

1 - LOVE the Lord your God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, body and strength; and
2 - LOVE your neighbor as you love yourself.

IN CHRIST, even these TWO Commandments are fulfilled for us because Jesus Christ obeyed His Father by denying His own will so He could do the Father's Will and no greater love is there than one lay his life down for another....even for his enemies.. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In your explanation of Love fulfilling the commandments, you NEVER mentioned us having "Love for God." The flesh and pride cannot know or love God.

 

[Lafftur]

Take a look. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20: 8-10, 13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. It is the false prophets that do not read the entire book from Genesis to Revelation! They are trying to do away with the Lord's laws. Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept. This include the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week!

I absolutely LOOOVE the Ten Commandments but, they are part of the Law that God gave to Moses. The Apostles understood the Law of GRACE and knew that there was no reason to put any burdens of the Mosiac Law on the new Gentile converts that were saved by grace by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE.

This is the conclusion the Apostles came up with concerning the requirements of the Law for the Gentiles:

Acts 15:22-29

King James Version


22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(NOTICE - The Apostles and Elders said NOTHING ABOUT KEEPING THE SABBATH)

However, "Keeping the Sabbath" was a righteous work that was recorded in the Body of Jesus Christ for us while He was on the Earth. Jesus kept the Sabbath and He is LORD of the Sabbath and He healed on the Sabbath and told a man to pick up his bed and walk.... on the Sabbath!!!

It's perfectly fine if you want to keep the Sabbath but, DO NOT make it a LAW that one MUST do to be SAVED or keep or maintain their salvation.

Pay close attention to what the Chief Apostles says about Paul's writings.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (II Peter 3:14-17)

Pay very close attention to what Peter says, "in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." If we are not familiar with the whole Bible, we will never get any understanding of the Word of God. My advice to those that are seeking the Lord, read the entire Bible, don't start at the Book of Acts and stop at the Book of Hebrews. Read from the beginning to the end, meaning from Genesis to Revelation.

Now let's go back to the book of I Timothy and pick up were we left off… From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (I Timothy 1:6-8)

Notice what Paul says, "we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this that the law is not made for a righteous man." Why isn't the law for the righteous? If we are righteous we are keeping the law.

Wrong! WE are NOT keeping the Law because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do so! Our righteousness and ANY attempts at keeping the Law is filthy rags.

The Lord Our Righteousness! Only IN CHRIST are we righteous because of HIS WORKS, NOT ours! Believing in Jesus Christ as Savior by faith is credited to us as righteousness because we receive His Righteousness.

Remember the Biblical definition of sin is; whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) So the law is for whom? For the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

Looks like Paul is preaching "keep the law" like the rest of the Lord's disciples. The people that teach against the Lord's commandments teach traditions of men.

Wrong again!

It's the people that teach against the Lord's Law of Grace are teaching traditions of men.

 

[awelight]

Jesus Christ would speak and then say, “He that has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.”

Jesus Christ is The Word of God wrapped in flesh; the Bible is the written Word of God on paper.

We can listen to the Word of God and read It but, the understanding comes ONLY by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives us eyes to see and ears to hear God’s Word so that we will understand and have power to be a doer of the Word, not a hearer only.

While reading the Bible, I simply asked the Holy Spirit why did Jesus meet with Moses and Elijah? Why not Abraham and King David?

Then, the Holy Spirit gave me understanding that all the works recorded in Jesus Christ’s human body we’re being examined by the Law and the Prophets…..etc…. I posted everything I heard the Holy Spirit saying.

I encourage everyone to be humble and rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding of God’s Word.

I wish to comment on one part of your post. The meeting with Moses and Elijah.

While it is true, that Moses is identified with the Law of God and Elijah was a Prophet of God - Therefore, the Law and the Prophets are therein represented. It could not be said, that Jesus was being "examined" by them. Jesus Christ is the WORD and as such, each man was giving us, the Word's message, in their given time and role. There would be no need for an examination. They would clearly know whom Christ was and is.

They appeared, in their Glorified bodies, as representatives of the Kingdom which is to come. Therefore, fulfilling the following:

Mar_9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk_9:27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

 

[awelight]

I absolutely LOOOVE the Ten Commandments but, they are part of the Law that God gave to Moses. The Apostles understood the Law of GRACE and knew that there was no reason to put any burdens of the Mosiac Law on the new Gentile converts that were saved by grace by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE.

This is the conclusion the Apostles came up with concerning the requirements of the Law for the Gentiles:

Acts 15:22-29

King James Version


22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(NOTICE - The Apostles and Elders said NOTHING ABOUT KEEPING THE SABBATH)

However, "Keeping the Sabbath" was a righteous work that was recorded in the Body of Jesus Christ for us while He was on the Earth. Jesus kept the Sabbath and He is LORD of the Sabbath and He healed on the Sabbath and told a man to pick up his bed and walk.... on the Sabbath!!!

It's perfectly fine if you want to keep the Sabbath but, DO NOT make it a LAW that one MUST do to be SAVED or keep or maintain their salvation.



Wrong! WE are NOT keeping the Law because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do so! Our righteousness and ANY attempts at keeping the Law is filthy rags.

The Lord Our Righteousness! Only IN CHRIST are we righteous because of HIS WORKS, NOT ours! Believing in Jesus Christ as Savior by faith is credited to us as righteousness because we receive His Righteousness.




Wrong again!

It's the people that teach against the Lord's Law of Grace are teaching traditions of men.

I agree with most of your post here but it sounds a bit like you are bordering on Antinomianism. The Lord clearly did not do away with the Ten Commandments. They are the Highest and Holiest Laws of God. The Lord Himself taught them. He compressed them into two commandments:

Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law is hanging, and the prophets.

The Law of Grace does not replace these two - Indeed, these two are the cornerstone of Grace. If one says he believes in Jesus Christ but does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind - then that one is a liar and the Truth is not in him. If one says he believes in Jesus Christ and hates his neighbor - then the Truth is not in this one. If either of these two failures, are the norm for that person, then I doubt this person really knows the Jesus Christ of Holy Scripture.

 

[JeffA]

Oh @BroTan, it's the flesh and pride that actually thinks it can KEEP the Law and gets upset when others are falling short of keeping the Law. It's a religious spirit that tries to keep everyone under the law of works.

Jesus Christ has set us free from the Law of Works and has put us under the Law of Grace because no one can keep ALL the Law, God knows this. If we could keep the Law, Jesus would not have had to die for us. Don't you see?

Jesus Christ spoke of TWO Commandments that fulfill ALL the Law and the Prophets.....

1 - LOVE the Lord your God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, body and strength; and
2 - LOVE your neighbor as you love yourself.

IN CHRIST, even these TWO Commandments are fulfilled for us because Jesus Christ obeyed His Father by denying His own will so He could do the Father's Will and no greater love is there than one lay his life down for another....even for his enemies.. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In your explanation of Love fulfilling the commandments, you NEVER mentioned us having "Love for God." The flesh and pride cannot know or love God.

All of your posts here are so full of the Holy Spirit that I can feel it working in me.
This is MOST edifying. Thank you for that. It brightened my morning.

@FreeGrace2
I read you with a smile. The Holy Spirit comes through in your words.
I always struggle with my "unworthiness". You always remind me that Jesus was worthy FOR ME.
Bless you and @Lafftur

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Salvation is PAID IN FULL. There is NOTHING left to do for Salvation except…..BELIEVE.

The Blood of Jesus Christ takes away our sin and His Body is the Human Fulfillment of the Law that we were required to obey and fulfill….IN CHRIST, “It is finished.”

We know Sin and Death entered through Adam and Eve’s rebellion to God’s Will for them.

Salvation entered through Christ the Anointed and only begotten Son of God - His obedience to God’s Will for Him and All that will….believe in Him shall be born again in Christ and live.

God seals every Believer with His Holy Spirit and we begin our journey as God’s Child…we are learning but NEVER are we not God’s Child…we are FOREVER SAVED and FOREVER HIS, amen.

DO NOT DOUBT YOUR SALVATION ANY LONGER…you are loved, you are saved in Christ ALONE…..enjoy your journey!

what do you make of all the constant and consistent warnings like this throughout the New Testament ?

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

what’s he saying there to the church ?

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17, 19

what’s he saying there to the church ?

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why is he saying this stuff to the church ?“ if we’re supposed to understand we’re saved there’s no more to it don’t worry about our actions why is oaul so
Consistently reminding the church about their actions and how thier actions are going to Impact whether they experience Gods wrath or inheritance in his kingdom ?

it doesn’t seem like we should have to ignore more than half of Paul’s epistles to understand them , but it seems
Like if we have to ignore them it’s because we may not understand them.

“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭

there’s a place for saying I believe and I’m forgiven but it should Never come at the expense of removing the warnings in the New Testament out how believers live those warnings are there to call
Them to true repentance

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭

as long as we believe we’re immune from judgement well Never allow repentance to become part of our walk.

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25


if I tell a thief he’s forgiven already for what he is going to do , it’s not going to stop him from stealing it’s going to make him be more free with it.

if I tell a thief “your forgiven from all you stole , now go and stop Stealing from people or else you’ll end up
In prison “

it’s going to incentivize him to stop stealing and fear what will happen if he doesn’t. He’s going to Know grace because I forgave his sins he’s not going to think I’m a weak fool that approves of theft.

either way he’s been forgiven and earned to repent So in the end when the time comes to take account , he’s going to have the same witness others had some took it and repented , others were told “ repentance has nothing to do with anything your already forgiven ‘“


We all Have to answer to the same judge in the end

 

[Lafftur]

Hello @awelight

I wish to comment on one part of your post. The meeting with Moses and Elijah.

While it is true, that Moses is identified with the Law of God and Elijah was a Prophet of God - Therefore, the Law and the Prophets are therein represented.

It could not be said, that Jesus was being "examined" by them. Jesus Christ is the WORD and as such, each man was giving us, the Word's message, in their given time and role. There would be no need for an examination. They would clearly know whom Christ was and is.

Go back, read the scripture again concerning the Mount of Transfiguration.... ask the Holy Spirit for understanding.

Jesus Christ was not being examined as The Word of God, He was being examined as THE LAMB OF GOD and THE MESSIAH - THE CHRIST, The Anointed One..... Shiloh.


Genesis 49:9-11

King James Version

9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:


All the "works/acts" that Jesus Christ literally performed and did... day in and day out were recorded in His physical body.... He fulfilled ALL the WORKS/ACTS that God required from us for Salvation and all that the Prophets had written concerning Him.

God had prepared Himself a Body.... The Lamb of God....


Hebrews 10:1-17

King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Jesus Christ was examined by the Law and the Prophets and His Body was transfigured by becoming full of light... His Body was the Perfect Lamb of God with no blemish, spot or wrinkle. He had fulfilled ALL Righteousness FOR US!

They (Moses and Elijah) appeared, in their Glorified bodies, as representatives of the Kingdom which is to come. Therefore, fulfilling the following:

Mar_9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk_9:27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

No, Moses and Elijah were NOT in their glorified bodies yet. No one had their glorified physical bodies until Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Jesus had not yet been crucified.

The scriptures say NOTHING of Moses and Elijah being in glorified bodies.... just that they appeared and talked with Jesus Christ... ONLY Jesus Christ's face and clothing became full of light.


Matthew 17:1-9

King James Version

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[Lafftur]

Hello again @awelight

I agree with most of your post here but it sounds a bit like you are bordering on Antinomianism.

Oh dear, theologians love to diagnose everyone with BIG words like....."Antinomianism." I have NO IDEA what that BIG word means.. and I'm not impressed in the slightest that you know BIG words. LOL!

I love how when God talks to me... He uses very simple words that even a child could understand.... He's so wonderful and easy to understand!

The Lord clearly did not do away with the Ten Commandments.

NEVER did I say that Jesus Christ the Lord did away with ANY of the Laws that God gave to Moses for us. I said that Jesus Christ FULFILLED THEM ALL for us in His physical BODY.

Jesus Christ has fulfilled ALL Righteousness for everyone - this includes even the Ten Commandments.

Matthew 5:17

King James Version

17 Think not that I (Jesus Christ) am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

I love the Ten Commandments and absolutely enjoy obeying them but, my obedience to the Ten Commandments is NOT required for Salvation or keeping salvation or maintaining salvation because Jesus Christ FULFILLED the Ten Commandments for me regarding Salvation.

Now, ALL the good works I do (including the Ten Commandments) are because I LOVE GOD! I love the Father, I love the Son and I love the Holy Spirit!

I am NOT afraid of losing God's Gift of Salvation for me and it's time for every Believer to be SECURE in God's Gift of Salvation for them, too! Be SECURE in God's LOVE for us!