Israel

[Keras]

In the first place, all those passages were talking about the nation Israel.

But it WAS Jesus who was with ancient Israel in the desert. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5

Your determination to have a Jewish Israel redeemed and a separate Church, is sadly misplaced. I know this idea is a common belief, but it contradicts what the NT says about who are God's people and means that Jesus Mission was a failure.

According to your Two Peoples, Two Promises belief, it will require terrible punishments upon the Jews before they finally repent.
Is that how Jesus operates? No, but this is their fate; Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, Hebrews 10:26:31, Romans 9:27

 

[Guojing]

But it WAS Jesus who was with ancient Israel in the desert. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5

Your determination to have a Jewish Israel redeemed and a separate Church, is sadly misplaced. I know this idea is a common belief, but it contradicts what the NT says about who are God's people and means that Jesus Mission was a failure.

According to your Two Peoples, Two Promises belief, it will require terrible punishments upon the Jews before they finally repent.
Is that how Jesus operates? No, but this is their fate; Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, Hebrews 10:26:31, Romans 9:27

No, I am simply saying that, in the OT, all the passages that talk about Israel, are referring to the nation Israel.

You cannot run away from that fact. Ever since Jacob was renamed Israel, his descendants form the 12 tribes of Israel, and Israel became a nation born by God in Exodus, after God rescued them from Egypt and had them cross the Red Sea.

So you cannot put gentile believers, all of us now into the Body of Christ, into that term "Israel" in the OT. It just does not fit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, because the gospel that saves now is not based on works (Romans 4:5)

But Israel in the OT did not have Christ dying on the cross for their sins. They showed their faith by obeying what God commanded them to obey during the OT time period.

Christ's death for the sins of those that God gave him covered man, from the beginning of man, to the last man that will be born into this world. Christ died for the sins of Jacob/Israel in the old testament, as well as in the new testament.

 

[garee]

And what does the Jews being scattered have to do with the Gentiles?

Not all Israel is born again Israel as those who do have the born again Spirt of Christ. Just as not all who say they are a Jew are. Being a Jew has to do with the unseen inward born again manner of spirit not outwardly according to what the eyes see.

Romans 2:22-29 King James Version (KJV) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The Jews that had the outward identification according to the flesh where reminded it profits for nothing .Just as Jesus said of his own Jewish flesh . . it profits for zero.

Our father who propmised in Isaiah he would rename his bride previously called Israel became "Christian". It came about in Acts. Christian a more befitting name to represent a bride made up of all the nations.

Christian literally meaning residents of the City of Christ prepared as the one bride of made up of all the nation .Named after her husband and founder Christ.

Salvation has nothing to do with DNA.

Revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

A Christian falls under the same category of a born again Israelite or a inward Jew .

 

[Keras]

So you cannot put gentile believers, all of us now into the Body of Christ, into that term "Israel" in the OT. It just does not fit.

Israel simply means an Overcomer for God. That is what we Christians are.
The NT tells us many times that ethnicity has no value since Jesus came. Why must you insist on the Jewish State of Israel having a special place with God?

A Christian falls under the same category of a born again Israelite or a inward Jew .

Yes, as Romans 2:29 tells us.
There is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

 

[Guojing]

Israel simply means an Overcomer for God. That is what we Christians are.
The NT tells us many times that ethnicity has no value since Jesus came. Why must you insist on the Jewish State of Israel having a special place with God?

Yes, as Romans 2:29 tells us.
There is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

Now Israel has no special place with God, I agree. Jews and Gentiles are equal in the body of Christ

But you cannot deny that in time past, during the ot, Israel was God’s favourite nation (exodus 19:3-6, Ephesians 2:11-12)

 

[Guojing]

Christ's death for the sins of those that God gave him covered man, from the beginning of man, to the last man that will be born into this world. Christ died for the sins of Jacob/Israel in the old testament, as well as in the new testament.

God is outside time so yes we now know that Jesus death is for the sins of the whole world from the beginning of time

But during the ot, if you don’t sacrifice an animal for your sins, they will not be covered and a Jew would have died in his sins

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not all Israel is born again Israel as those who do have the born again Spirt of Christ. Just as not all who say they are a Jew are. Being a Jew has to do with the unseen inward born again manner of spirit not outwardly according to what the eyes see.

Romans 2:22-29 King James Version (KJV) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The Jews that had the outward identification according to the flesh where reminded it profits for nothing .Just as Jesus said of his own Jewish flesh . . it profits for zero.

Our father who propmised in Isaiah he would rename his bride previously called Israel became "Christian". It came about in Acts. Christian a more befitting name to represent a bride made up of all the nations.

Christian literally meaning residents of the City of Christ prepared as the one bride of made up of all the nation .Named after her husband and founder Christ.

Salvation has nothing to do with DNA.

Revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

A Christian falls under the same category of a born again Israelite or a inward Jew .

Yes, the elect are made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation Rev 5:9.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Israel simply means an Overcomer for God. That is what we Christians are.
The NT tells us many times that ethnicity has no value since Jesus came. Why must you insist on the Jewish State of Israel having a special place with God?

Yes, as Romans 2:29 tells us.
There is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

Jacob's name was to be no more called Lacob, but to be called Israel. Gen 33:28. Jacob, as Israel, not the nation of Israel, but Jacob/Israel. Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect. who have a circumcised heart, Rom 9:11., which is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Rev 5:9.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Now Israel has no special place with God, I agree. Jews and Gentiles are equal in the body of Christ

But you cannot deny that in time past, during the ot, Israel was God’s favourite nation (exodus 19:3-6, Ephesians 2:11-12)

Why can you not understand that Jacob's new name is Israel, Jacob/Israel is God's elect people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and it has nothing to do with being the nation of Israel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God is outside time so yes we now know that Jesus death is for the sins of the whole world from the beginning of time

But during the ot, if you don’t sacrifice an animal for your sins, they will not be covered and a Jew would have died in his sins

Heb 10:11 says the old testament sacrifices can never take away sins.

 

[Guojing]

Heb 10:11 says the old testament sacrifices can never take away sins.

Yes, I said they covered sins, which was temporary until Christ died on the cross to remove sins permanently.

But during time past, the OT time period, they could not refuse to sacrifice animals and tell God "I am trusting in your son's death and resurrection for my sins" instead.

You agree with that right?

 

[Guojing]

Why can you not understand that Jacob's new name is Israel, Jacob/Israel is God's elect people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and it has nothing to do with being the nation of Israel.

Why can't you understand that time past is different from but now?

Don't anticipate revelation, if you were a gentile living in the OT time period, you are cut off from God, even if you believe in him (Ephesians 2:11-12).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, I said they covered sins, which was temporary until Christ died on the cross to remove sins permanently.

But during time past, the OT time period, they could not refuse to sacrifice animals and tell God "I am trusting in your son's death and resurrection for my sins" instead.

You agree with that right?

I do not think that it covered their sins. It brought them to remember their sins.

 

[Guojing]

I do not think that it covered their sins. It brought them to remember their sins.

Yes, we are both using Hebrews 10 here.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

It covered sins before Christ came to take away sins.

The point, which you keep refusing to address, is that, before Christ came, what could the OT Jews do when they commit sins?

They have to offer animal sacrifices, because God commanded them to do so. God did not command them to follow 1 Cor 15:1-4 for their sins.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, we are both using Hebrews 10 here.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

It covered sins before Christ came to take away sins.

The point, which you keep refusing to address, is that, before Christ came, what could the OT Jews do when they commit sins?

They have to offer animal sacrifices, because God commanded them to do so. God did not command them to follow 1 Cor 15:1-4 for their sins.

Saved (Greek=delivered). 1 Cor 15:1-4, Are you sure this is referencing eternal deliverance? Is it a requirement to keep in memory what Paul said to be delivered eternally?

 

[Guojing]

Saved (Greek=delivered). 1 Cor 15:1-4, Are you sure this is referencing eternal deliverance? Is it a requirement to keep in memory what Paul said to be delivered eternally?

I guess if its possible for anyone to actually "forget" that Jesus rose on the 3rd day, then yes, he may not be saved eternally.

Otherwise, the definition of believing in vain is given by 1 Cor 15:13-14

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

So faith in vain is not referring to you having to "keep believing", its referring to the fact, that Jesus did or did not rise from the dead.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why can you not understand that Jacob's new name is Israel, Jacob/Israel is God's elect people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and it has nothing to do with being the nation of Israel.

How is this even true, when Revelation 7 exposes your fallacy? You've been sowing spiritual confusion to your own hurt and the hurt of others.

Now take a very close look at what is said:

144,000 OF REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

From verses 5-8, all the tribes are specifically listed. Then we see the Church as a separate entity:

THE CHURCH: ALL NATIONS, KINDREDS, PEOPLES, AND TONGUES
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

In Scripture "the nations" or "all nations" means the Gentile nations. You never see them confused with the twelve tribes of Israel. And if God chooses to keep Israel distinct from the Church, no man has any business contradicting God.

 

[Keras]

From verses 5-8, all the tribes are specifically listed. Then we see the Church as a separate entity:

You think this because it suits your beliefs.
However, the fact is the 144,000 will be selected out of the vast multitude John sees in Rev 7:9. Jesus does it standing on Mt Zion, Rev 14:1-7
The angel in verses 6-7 are an allegory for those missionaries who will go out in pairs, just as the 72 did. Luke 10:1-10
Proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21 Verse 19 refers to the 144,000.

 

[garee]

You think this because it suits your beliefs.
However, the fact is the 144,000 will be selected out of the vast multitude John sees in Rev 7:9. Jesus does it standing on Mt Zion, Rev 14:1-7
The angel in verses 6-7 are an allegory for those missionaries who will go out in pairs, just as the 72 did. Luke 10:1-10
Proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21 Verse 19 refers to the 144,000.

The 144,000 a metaphorical number of all sealed as redeemed which no man can count. It represents all the sealed saints old testament and new, the bride of Christ. She is pictured in Revelation 12. We walk by faith the unseen eternal and are not of the number. . those who number days and people .Making the signified understanding of the book of Revelation without effect.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

When David sinned and numbered the troops thousands died .

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight